19 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Dislikes:
The App  (The same could have been done in multiple other ways)  

Oh yeah? How could they have done it?

Stat books? Set in stone points costs on cards? Entirely new set of cards released every 4 months?

You do get that the inflexibility of points and slots is where a lot of 1.0 problems came from, and having flexible costs is one of the main points of 2.0!

How exactly do you want to accomplish that without an app?

I play 40k, and i can tell you that having stat book where nearly every point cost is wrong because it has been revised, and where you have to look up in 3 different books to make a list, well that’s not fun at all!

18 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Coincidentally this is exactly what 2e does.

I agree. It throws the baby out with the bath water.

To address other questions/comments, I fully anticipated full-on vitriol at my initial post. It’s actually been much tamer than I expected, which I appreciate. And yes, my post count may be low but it’s because I don’t spend a lot of time on the FFG forum. I only contribute when I feel like it’s something worth sharing or asking about. You don’t have to agree with that statement if you don’t want.

Lastly, someone expressed confusion about the nature of the objection as a result of opening the reaper. To clarify, it was the discovery of multiple copies of tactician in the 2e pack after hearing on good authority that only one copy of an upgrade would be needed thanks to the app. This indicates that statement to be “demonstrably false” and it irritates me to no end that buying multiple conversion kits NOT to convert more ships but for the simple requirement of adding the correct number of a particular upgrade card to cover one’s whole fleet is going to be a thing after all. By the way - Having friends is awesome and I’m glad I do, but it doesn’t help with borrowing cards for a game when you’re all flying the same best cards. Thanks for the suggestion, though. ?

Carry on,

Felicia

4 minutes ago, Boris_the_Dwarf said:

To clarify, it was the discovery of multiple copies of tactician in the 2e pack after hearing on good authority that only one copy of an upgrade would be needed thanks to the app.

Out of curiosity where did you hear this? This isn't a concept I'd at all heard, and I followed all the announcements pretty keenly.

I wish it was the case that you didn't need multiple copies of upgrades, but I have never heard it said outside of a couple of random posts on this forum.

Yup. No official source ever suggested that play with just the app would be possible or that lists with multiple copies of a thing wouldn't need all the copies of it in organised play.

Damning a thing for failing to meet unrealistic expectations isn't sensible.

1 hour ago, player2072913 said:

Out of curiosity where did you hear this? This isn't a concept I'd at all heard, and I followed all the announcements pretty keenly.

I wish it was the case that you didn't need multiple copies of upgrades, but I have never heard it said outside of a couple of random posts on this forum.

Yeah I've never heard that before.

3 hours ago, ForceM said:

Oh yeah? How could they have done it?

Stat books? Set in stone points costs on cards? Entirely new set of cards released every 4 months?

You do get that the inflexibility of points and slots is where a lot of 1.0 problems came from, and having flexible costs is one of the main points of 2.0!

How exactly do you want to accomplish that without an app?

I play 40k, and i can tell you that having stat book where nearly every point cost is wrong because it has been revised, and where you have to look up in 3 different books to make a list, well that’s not fun at all!

It is kinda like magic ... watch ...

And *POOF*

OMG!!!! Where did the stats go!! Crazy, right?!?!?!? It is like you can print on the sleeve whole new stats.

Have a different color sleeve per tournament years, sell them for $10-20 bucks or something. Problem solved, no app. (A cut in half Starbucks gift card envelope was used due to convenience of what I had in arms grasp.)

17 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

It is kinda like magic ... watch ...

And *POOF*

OMG!!!! Where did the stats go!! Crazy, right?!?!?!? It is like you can print on the sleeve whole new stats.

Have a different color sleeve per tournament years, sell them for $10-20 bucks or something. Problem solved, no app. (A cut in half Starbucks gift card envelope was used due to convenience of what I had in arms grasp.)

That seems unnecessarily complicated and costly for the consumer compared to an app/pdf. The app isn't perfect, but surely its better than buying and sorting through a hundred sleeves every year.

23 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

It is kinda like magic ... watch ...

And *POOF*

OMG!!!! Where did the stats go!! Crazy, right?!?!?!? It is like you can print on the sleeve whole new stats.

Have a different color sleeve per tournament years, sell them for $10-20 bucks or something. Problem solved, no app. (A cut in half Starbucks gift card envelope was used due to convenience of what I had in arms grasp.)

You are awesome!!

Low tech rules!!

And in any event, it just shows that multiple solutions are possible.

23 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

It is kinda like magic ... watch ...

And *POOF*

OMG!!!! Where did the stats go!! Crazy, right?!?!?!? It is like you can print on the sleeve whole new stats.

Have a different color sleeve per tournament years, sell them for $10-20 bucks or something. Problem solved, no app. (A cut in half Starbucks gift card envelope was used due to convenience of what I had in arms grasp.)

You realize that your solution will cost players more having to rebuy those cover pack than the current solution with the app, right?

28 minutes ago, SabineKey said:

You realize that your solution will cost players more having to rebuy those cover pack than the current solution with the app, right?

In the long run maybe.

It would be less for the fairly casual player to do this than the 2.0 upgrade packs that are currently being offered. (I know there is a lot more in there.)

But the point was, this was what was off the top of my head, that there are other solutions out there. Give me sometime, maybe I can come up with something else .... Instead of an on the fly response.

Just now, Jadotch said:

In the long run maybe.

It would be less for the fairly casual player to do this than the 2.0 upgrade packs that are currently being offered. (I know there is a lot more in there.)

But the point was off the top of my head, that there are other solutions out there. Give me sometime, maybe I can come up with something else ....

That’s fair. There are other solutions. But I have yet to hear one that is objectively superior to the app (meaning it’s actually accepted more universally than other options). If you can come up with an alternative that can get that kind of traction, I’d love to see it. But if it just shifts the problem on to other people, then it hasn’t really fixed anything.

... But just because there are other solutions doesn't mean that the current one isn't good. I've yet to see an easier way to deal with variable point costs than within a squadbuilder app/webapp.

The app is the best solution for FFG, not for us. They can continue the sales model of printing overpowered ships to drive sales and then nerf them out from under you after you've already bought them. They'll praise their poor design countermeasures as flexible when it's really just part of the sales model and didn't require any foresight at all. It's kind of a brilliant way of maintaining their sales model while eliminating responsibility for their product.

Just now, AceWing said:

The app is the best solution for FFG, not for us. They can continue the sales model of printing overpowered ships to drive sales and then nerf them out from under you after you've already bought them. They'll praise their poor design countermeasures as flexible when it's really just part of the sales model and didn't require any foresight at all. It's kind of a brilliant way of maintaining their sales model while eliminating responsibility for their product.

That seems like a terrible business decision. Customer loyalty would all but disappear. Companies do not survive without customer loyalty.

4 minutes ago, GLEXOR said:

That seems like a terrible business decision. Customer loyalty would all but disappear. Companies do not survive without customer loyalty.

It's been their model since, at least, Whisper.

I don’t understand the doom and gloom for second edition. Everything about it seems to be an improvement. I don’t intend to buy in and will be staying with first edition, but that is just my personal preference.

I do think giving Everyone a clear jumping off point will cause some people like myself to complete their 1st edition collections and leave. But, they will probably draw in more new blood than they lose. For me it was just there are other things I want more than upgrade kits and they are adding tokens to a token heavy game.

This thread is hilarious. How are you people not out of tin foil yet?

42 minutes ago, AceWing said:

It's been their model since, at least, Whisper.

I'm not sure it's a deliberate model as much as an unintended consequence of incompetence.

1 minute ago, SOTL said:

I'm not sure it's a deliberate model as much as an unintended consequence of incompetence.

45 minutes ago, AceWing said:

It's been their model since, at least, Whisper.

I think I have to agree with SOTL here. You could argue that their business model wasn't to sell OP ships and then nerf them, but to sell you a weak ship, and then sell you a fix on top of that. I reckon in the long run, having points change in the app will save me money, in that I won't have to spend large amounts of money on cards like Vaksai or Tie/X1.

1 hour ago, AceWing said:

The app is the best solution for FFG, not for us. They can continue the sales model of printing overpowered ships to drive sales and then nerf them out from under you after you've already bought them. They'll praise their poor design countermeasures as flexible when it's really just part of the sales model and didn't require any foresight at all. It's kind of a brilliant way of maintaining their sales model while eliminating responsibility for their product.

Agreed, it’s the best solution for them.

And why exactly does that not make an app the best solution for us?

What is the problem? Like really???

Everyone that has spare money for X-Wing probably has either a Computer (not ideal, but you can print your lists which is the same as with yasb or squad builder before), tablet or smartphone to use the app.

I really don’t get this argument!

And these overly complicated ideas with sleeves and releasing so many cards and fixes etc. Why would you ever do that when someone can just go and change 2 values in an app and it’s done?

1 hour ago, player2072913 said:

I think I have to agree with SOTL here. You could argue that their business model wasn't to sell OP ships and then nerf them, but to sell you a weak ship, and then sell you a fix on top of that. I reckon in the long run, having points change in the app will save me money, in that I won't have to spend large amounts of money on cards like Vaksai or Tie/X1.

I don't think they did either by design. They were poor at judging the balance of releases, some too high some too low, both of which required patches to be sold separately at a later date.

Many people are crying about 2.0.

All I can say is it could be worse .

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2018/6/8/jacking-out/

46 minutes ago, ForceM said:

What is the problem? Like really???

In a word:

Trust.

I have watched 1.0 vacillate power back and forth between broken and better, and all kinds of crazy **** happening to the game because of the ludicrous pursuit of The Perfect Meta.

Now, the powers that be are essentially producing game components that are unfinished, so that QUARTERLY I need to go back and see if the component still has the same specs. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't. But I am tired of a game that bases all of it's decisions on the overly-exaggerated gyrations at the top of the highest mast when things on deck are actually not that bad.

The App only seems to certify that this is a known problem that will not get better, it will only get fixed faster with less paperwork.

I like the look of 2.0. It does look like superior design with room for growth. But the required use of the Tweek-o-Matic is a huge red flag.

And the AGOT 2nd Ed release has been a bit of a damp squib too.

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/275715-hello-designers-this-is-not-or-was-not-magic/

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