Meishodo vs Maho

By Ishi Tonu, in L5R LCG: Lore Discussion

Ok so now that we have both types of cards to compare them too and we've gotten a some tidbits from the developers about it, I think it's time we take a look at these two different magics and what the implications for each are.

As I understand it, Meishodo is use of the Kami, or other magical entities, without their permission, generally binding them to an object. As this is not a normal practice in Rogukan it is viewed with apprehension to say the least and that is why I think we are seeing honor losses tied to the newer Meishodo spells.......because they are foreign practices, not because they are necessarily bad in nature.

Maho on the other hand is straight up evil stuff, imploring the kami to do terrible things at a terrible cost, thus the loss of honor.

The designers said (and I'm paraphrasing here) that had the story choice gone differently and Meishodo was outlawed, it would have been more on the evil side of things. What that means exactly, I don't know. Maybe more spells along the lines of Unleash the Djinn and fewer along the lines of Talisman of the Sun.

So what does this mean for the story. Here are my speculations.

Meishodo is contributing to the imbalance of the elements. It's not the sole cause or even the biggest cause, but, it's certainly a factor. You have foreign magics that have now been in Rogukan for a couple hundred years. Unknown magical entities doing stuff that the kami may not necessarily like, or simply that some of the rokugani are no longer looking to the kami for aid. Although we have no proof of it yet, I suspect that at least one Unicorn shugenja has tried to bind a kami to an object since their return to Rokugan, and the kami were none to happy about that.

Maho use may or may not be on the rise. We don't really know for sure, but, we do see Tadaka doing something which is well beyond what would normally be expected of a shugenja when making an offering to a kami. We know it's not meishodo that he does, and while it's not blatantly told to us "it's Maho"........it's certainly within the realm of what we would expect for that. We also have him speaking about reading and considering Akuma's theories and tests. If Akuma turns out to have gone down the same path as he did in the CCG, we know where that ended up and we have to assume that if Tadaka is dabbling in what Akuma did, he's at least doing something that would be considered "gateway to maho" magic at the very least. We also see Kuni Yori with a printed ability to get a very Earth Ring-like effect without actually having the RoE and it costing an honor. I would have to assume that this is also very close to Maho, if not straight up maho. It's not meishodo, and it appears to be directly tied to the Earth element, which I feel is intentionally being done to illustrate how maho, or at least sudo-maho, looks in card form and how a strong shugenja might be able to mask it's true nature from others. Like the Crab are fighting and they say "Ok Yori do your thing......whatever that is" and because the Crab are more concerned with the outcome than losing their own honor, they are ok with the cost, because the outcome keeps them alive.

We also have clans at each other's throat and war seeming imminent, so I would also suspect with the kami being torn between pleas from many shugenja in order to do have rokugani die at the hands of their countrymen could also be contributing to the elements out of balance.

Thoughts?

Edited by Ishi Tonu

That all seems like a thorough and thoughtful analysis. There's not much that I would disagree with here.

What I would point out is that Maho is the magic of asking kansen for their aid, rather than kami. Kansen are the spirits of the corrupted shadowlands, and thus somewhat nastier in what they are willing to do.

Thank you for the clarification

Sounds like heresy.

Just to add, meishodo is also described as "name magic" which essentially is a type of magic where learning the true name of something can give you power over it. In other words, even if meishodo wielders aren't binding spirits to objects, the basis of their magic is to use the spirit's name to force it to obey your will. Even with maho, the principles behind Rokugani magic still center around making an offering to the spirit (be it kami or kansen) to request their aid for your purpose.

So at least in the eyes of the Rokugani, maho is only evil because it unavoidably requires tainting yourself, making you spiritually impure and colluding with the power of Jigoku. Meishodo is flat out shameful because it disrespects the kami/spirits and goes against the very reverential nature of shugenja magic.

Based on the narrative we've gotten, Tadaka hasn't used outright maho.... yet- he's made offerings to the elemental kami that go beyond the pale, though. That said, there's literally nothing we've seen about him that indicates he wouldn't if he thought the result worthwhile. And he's now at liberty to go to Crab lands... and who has the maho spell we've seen thus far? Oh. Oh dear. That's no good at all!

Given that merely drawing Ofushikai inside a shrine was enough to de-consecrate the ground, the idea that the increasing military strife is contributing to the elemental imbalance is definitely not too farfetched.

I'd also note that the Phoenix are at a loss- the previous Master of Water caused the friggin' tsunami that wrecked the Crane (thereby making her my favorite Master of Water ever ) in an effort to redress the issue. The causes are therefore definitely more than any one thing- and as the Phoenix novella makes clear, the imbalance has actually been going on longer than anyone realized.

We also know that there's something of a jade shortage- which can easily lead the Crab to desperate measures as reliable old standbys become less secure.

Something has also started to awaken the Naga from their millenary slumber, so there are stirrings felt in the Akasha too.

maybe the barriers between the realms are weakening. Hope one day to see Chikushudo giant animal spirits (A la Mononoke Hime).

You're making a couple of assumptions there. Who says the naga have been asleep for that long? Maybe they were always awake in the Ivory Kingdoms and have recently arrived. Which is why they are the ally of the Unicorn.

10 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

You're making a couple of assumptions there. Who says the naga have been asleep for that long? Maybe they were always awake in the Ivory Kingdoms and have recently arrived. Which is why they are the ally of the Unicorn.

The “To the South” fiction seems to imply that the Unicorn has never seen the Naga before, and that they’re coming from inside/near the Shinomen Forest

I am totally making an assumption, based on Old5R lore, where Naga where sleeping since before the dawn of the Empire.

If the Naga Race, previous masters of the land now being Rokugan weren't asleep before, they would probably have manifested before.

knowing that the description of the Nezumi refered them as marked by historical tragedy (destruction of their empire by Fu Leng's fall) assumption is that what happened before the dawn stands true.

#itsstillcanonuntilFFGsaysotherwise :)

I'm gonna guess FFG handles the Naga similar to the old lore. Maybe instead of sleeping they just went into hiding and as one of the original races of rokugan they are more closely connected to the Kami. The imbalance in the elements has driven them out of hiding.

I think this tracks with why the other races are making their presence known since they are feeling something seiously wrong.

Humans are messing things up..... What else is new?

Great now I'm hyped for stuff that may or may not happen... way to go you creative devils! ?

From what I have read so far in the lore it feels likely that its the elemental master that are trying to instigate something. Meishodo's just happens to be a convenient ruse to divert attention from what is actually going on. Clearly unicorn and lion lands are not experiencing anything strange. The elements are most imbalanced in phoenix lands and phoenix practices. The kami themselves are clearly angry with them the most as more and more phoenix shugenja are unable to invoke them.

25 minutes ago, moto_rudhra said:

From what I have read so far in the lore it feels likely that its the elemental master that are trying to instigate something.

More likely, they're honestly baffled and grasping at straws.

After all,

the former Master of Water caused the Crane Tsunami by trying to fix things

, and so they're trying to fix on anything they can think of that's not How It Has Always Been Done.

As for the rest of your post... something is indeed most definitely up, since no other shugenja appear to be having the sorts of problems the Phoenix are concerned about- which is not how it was pitched in the early days of the new story, but definitely an interesting angle. One wonders just what was done in Phoenix lands to cause these concerns...

On 28 giugno 2018 at 5:22 AM, Shiba Gunichi said:

the former Master of Water caused the Crane Tsunami by trying to fix things

Really? That must have been... Awkward to explain

where was this hinted btw?

Edited by mirrorcat
On 7/14/2018 at 4:54 AM, mirrorcat said:

Really? That must have been... Awkward to explain

where was this hinted btw?

She didn't try to explain, didn't want to start a war.

On ‎7‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 1:54 PM, mirrorcat said:

Really? That must have been... Awkward to explain

where was this hinted btw?

In the Phoenix novella, The Sword and the Spirits , Tsukune is informed during her first metting with the Elemental Masters that the previous master of water had stepped down after her attempt to fix the Elemental imbalance caused the tsunami that struck the Crane lands.

Of course, this has been kept secret from everyone not on the Council of Elemental Masters, Tsukune obviously excepted.

2 minutes ago, Mangod said:

In the Phoenix novella, The Sword and the Spirits , Tsukune is informed during her first metting with the Elemental Masters that the previous master of water had stepped down after her attempt to fix the Elemental imbalance caused the tsunami that struck the Crane lands.

Of course, this has been kept secret from everyone not on the Council of Elemental Masters, Tsukune obviously excepted.

And she is sheepishly cautioned not to let others know about it when the masters recall that she had not been previously informed before a heated discussion lead to one of them letting that fact slip in her prescence.

4 hours ago, Schmoozies said:

And she is sheepishly cautioned not to let others know about it when the masters recall that she had not been previously informed before a heated discussion lead to one of them letting that fact slip in her prescence.

The Council of Elemental Masters scene is one of the best in the book, IMHO.