It is hard to see that holding any water given that at least two minor clans were wiped out as soon as the concept was initially introduced to the game-- the Rabbit and the Snake, both of which eventually came back in some way because well... once something has a name, you can't keep it dead.

In both cases the Great Clan just said "they were using maho" and were taken at their word with no real investigation or challenge-- because testimony is considered better than physical evidence and conjecture.

So no sooner was the concept of Minor Clans introduced to the setting, but the precedent was set that a Great Clan was free to wipe out any Minor Clan without any attempt for the Imperial Legions to intervene (not that it would ever be worth it for them to intervene) or punishment-- just so long as they bothered coming up with and presenting a stock excuse for their actions.

And soon after that, the "Falcon Clan" was absorbed into the Crab Clan, thus setting the precedent that it is completely normal and acceptable for minor clans to just join Great Clans in order to avoid military action being taken against them.

If the Falcon clan can just join the Crab Clan on a whim, why wouldn't the Sparrow Clan just rejoin the Crane Clan or the Rabbit Clan join either the Lion or the Scorpion (whichever would have them)?

And the Dragonfly clan origin particularly stands out as odd given it was a big mess over an inter-clan marriage, something that as the setting developed was more and more indicated to be something pretty routine even between clans that weren't getting along, and ended with them being saved by the Dragon Clan which, once the concept of vassal families was introduced into the setting, is a pretty typical story of how a vassal family gets formed. Since the Imperials had nothing to do with the whole thing, the idea that this would have caused them to become a minor clan just doesn't fit. Nor was their stated role as they were basically just an extension of the Dragon Clan, serving as their envoys to the outside world as they generally kept to themselves.

And most certainly it is odd that the Fox never just rejoined the Unicorn. Instead somehow they ended up part of the Mantis Clan who lived half-way across the empire from them. As though any communication between them would even be possible, let alone collusion.

So if there is a decree, it is an unenforced one that clearly no one takes seriously. Or rather, it was just put there was an excuse once it was clear that the writers had written themselves into a corner, but completely forgotten about whenever such a decree would be inconvenient to the story they wanted to tell.

But, if one is going to reboot the whole setting, then the whole issue can be neatly avoided. Instead of devoting tons of effort into fleshing out 20 random minor clans each with their unique special snowflake abilities that no one else can do, that effort can be put towards developing existing clans.

I don't have an issue with the Mantis, because the Mantis are way out there on their little island and even if someone were to get it into their head to try to invade them, they would be putting their relatively untrained and untested military against people who practically live on boats. And even if they could win the war, governorship of those islands likely wouldn't be worth the cost of taking them.

But the Wasp and the Centipede are some really terribly written Minor Clans that lay bare all the flaws and faults with the concept and there has to be a better way to bring those concepts into the story if there is going to be a playable Mantis Clan in this itteration of the game.

Indeed, Imperial law prohibits declaration of war among clans (Great or Minor) without Imperial sanction. The clans DO engage in hostilities (for example, the Crane and Lion, in the current story, have never actually been "at war" over Toshi Ranbo, or anything else) but such "troubles" or "difficulties" or "border disagreements" are very limited in scope and confined to particular objectives. The Crane and Lion may have been willing to expend blood contesting the ownership of Toshi Ranbo and the Osari Plains with one another, but there was never any question of Lion armies driving into Crane lands on a war of conquest (or vice versa).

It's correct that the Imperial legions, and even other clans, would mobilize to put down a clan that tried to launch a wide-scale war against another clan (again, Great or Minor). But there's a more fundamental reason--the Emperor has said, don't do that , through edict and formulation of law. Again, the Emperor is the embodiment of the Heavens, so casually tossing aside decrees from the Throne is the same as casually tossing aside decrees from Tengoku itself. In a setting steeped in reverence for the Heavens, an afterlife intimately tied into the Celestial Order, and a firm belief that those who sin badly enough while alive can end up going to any number of horrific places in that afterlife (like Toshigoku, Gaki-do, etc.), casually spurning what the Emperor has decreed is NOT something that will be considered lightly (and, in most cases, at all).

So that's why the Minor Clans don't just get gobbled up (which, let's face it, they almost certainly would otherwise). As for why they exist in the first place...well, again, Rokugan isn't our world. Perhaps being granted the right to found a Minor Clan yanks a samurai out of his or her existing comfort zone in their current Great Clan, but that's hardly relevant in the Emerald Empire. Practical considerations are secondary to the honor and glory of being given such profound recognition by none other than the Emperor himself. Perhaps not all of the Minor Clans have a particularly good reason to exist in the first place in the context of the setting--what particularly vital or useful role do the Centipede serve, for instance? But that doesn't really matter; the Emperor of the day chose to recognize them as a Minor Clan, so here they are.

Now, DRAMATICALLY, the Minor Clans do present a bit of a dilemma, yes. They've been included because they're part of the setting as it was originally conceived in the O5R canon. That said, there's only so much word count available for story, so any word count used on Minor Clans isn't being used on the Great Clans--and the Great Clans remain very much the focus of the story and the games it supports. Frankly, I think FFG's answer to this is going to be simply keeping the Minor Clans mainly as background and flavor, without very little story devoted to them generally. This really doesn't make them any different than ronin, gaijin, spirits, etc. All of these groups can play a role in the story that doesn't involve them being front and center, but rather support the story being told, and that story remaining focused on the Great Clans. So I wouldn't get particularly fussed about their existence, any more than any other group. I've written a bunch of fiction now and I've never yet seen any particular dramatic need to involve Minor Clans; I know they're there, and they may get mentioned, but that's about it. There's PLENTY of story to go on involving just the Great Clans. As usual, I hasten to add the disclaimer that I'm speaking only as a freelance writer here; I have no idea what FFG's plans are for the Minor Clans going forward. They may decide to shift focus to the Minor Clans, if it suits their needs, and if they do and they tell me to write about them, then that's what I'll do. I'd just be surprised if this ever comes about, because there's SO much story to tell about the Great Clans, and it's hard to do even THAT in the story capacity that's available.

Okay, the Mantis are a separate case. They're a Minor Clan, but obviously fill a particular dramatic role. I honestly don't know what FFG's plans are for the Mantis, but they do seem to be distinct from the other Minor Clans. I'm honestly as keen as everyone else to see where Yoritomo and his followers end up going in the story.

What would be far more conducive to the setting, especially as the card game goes on, would be instead of a ton of random minor clans which, at best, can only have a weird little niche... Why not say "just because you only hear mostly from these 3-5 families, that doesn't mean those are the only families within the great clans."

Seeing more vassal families, maybe with different specialized roles, would be far better than another minor clan. And that can include both families that are reminiscent, if not clearly parallels, to the minor clans in the old setting. Instead of a distinct "Sparrow Clan", there can just be a family in the Crane clan who have had a vow of poverty forced upon them. But they would still be part of the Crane Clan, which means they would be the embarrassing cousins that the more famous families don't talk much about but pop up occasionally rather than a uniquely different "clan" that is going to show up whenever the writers feel like doing a "minor clan alliance" and never mentioned outside of that.

"Ujina" could be a family of Lions that tend to forgo the heavy armor and specialize in scouting and relying messages across the Lion's vast territory. And their family symbol could still be a rabbit.

And, of course, take the old vassal family ideas from the old RPG books, the ones that were really good ideas and print cards for those factions using those names.

If instead of 3-5 family names for each clan, there are eventually more like 10 and it is just that 3-5 show up way more often than some of the obscure ones, the clans themselves will feel more vast and varied and deep. But there will be no need to give them the full distinct clan treatment should an RPG come out in the future.

I get what you're saying, and while it's certainly an alternative, I'm not sure it really solves anything (to the extent there's actually anything that needs to be "solved" here, anyway). Whether they're called "Minor Clans" or "vassal families", they're really just more story elements that will need attention, or else are largely ignored. And the vassal families have the particular problem of being profoundly obscure; I write for the setting, have been immersed in it for over 20 years, and I still can't name more than a couple of the Great Clans' vassal families without consulting the Wiki. I suppose that, if they replaced the Minor Clans, then over time we'd come to know at least some of them better. But given that the Minor Clans were so well-established in the old canon--and that they are actually quite popular with a significant subset of players/readers/fans--there really wasn't much incentive for FFG to not just include them in the new story from the outset, rather than trying to reinvent the role they play in the story into vassal families. In any case, I don't think it matters a lot; with a much smaller volume of fiction being produced by FFG than in the previous version of the setting, the focus is very likely to remain on the major families of the Great Clans, with not a lot of attention being given to Minor Clans OR vassal families* There have a couple of occasions I suppose I could have invoked a Minor Clan (or a vassal family, for that matter), but chose to stick with the Daidojis or Bayushis or whatever, simply because its on those characters that the attention should remain.

As for RPG Schools, Techniques, etc. I think much the same thing applies. Whether it's a Minor Clan samurai or a samurai from a vassal family being given word count in an RPG supplement, I don't think it really matters; both cases would need something to make them distinct and interesting enough to play, or else why bother including them? The key point I think you HAVE touched on is that making them distinct and flavorful should not also result in them outshining Great Clan samurai, or doing what GC samurai can or should be doing, only doing it better. They should pretty much always be subordinate to the Great Clans, because it's them that the story and game needs to continue to be about.

*okay, the Kaito are the exception to this, for obvious reasons. But they're not a vassal family anymore, so they no longer fall into that niche anyway.

Thank you, it is good for a long time writer to hear out my concerns.

In terms of cards/writing if anything isn't building up and expanding on one of the 7 main clans then it should be building up

1) The Mantis Clan

2) The Spider Clan/Shadowlands

3) The Imperial Families/(should they be deposed) The Owl Clan - which extends to ronin, ashigaru and brotherhood.

4) If absolutely necessary, monsters that are not Shadowlands

Anything devoted to anything else is a distraction that simply takes focus away from one of these other possible factons. Minor clans that demand stage time to expound on how they are more unique and special and cooler than any of the above factions is a waste.

Well, again, I can't speak for what FFG decides to do; like I said, if they get hold of me and tell me they'd like a bunch of stories about the Sparrow Clan, then about the Sparrow Clan I shall write. That said, though, I doubt that they'll be moving their focus away from the Great Clans (and the Imperial Families, which includes the Hantei) to any significant degree anytime soon.

Yeah. Just because we fans have 20 years of L5R already doesn't mean FFG does, it's new to them and their customers. They have to lay out the foundations of their setting and their games. As well as introduce the world to new players. Us old hands get nods and winks from beloved characters and plots, but that's really out of respect for our dedication and continued interest in the world. I wouldn't be hurt though, if a bit down the ways, they take some time out to play with the other toys in the setting's toybox like the minor clans and nezumi.

In a setting where everyone's interactions are guided by polite fictions, the existence of Minor Clans is hardly the weirdest thing we all just roll with...

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 4:41 PM, TheHobgoblyn said:

What would be far more conducive to the setting, especially as the card game goes on, would be instead of a ton of random minor clans which, at best, can only have a weird little niche... Why not say "just because you only hear mostly from these 3-5 families, that doesn't mean those are the only families within the great clans."

Given the way the Kaito pop up, this appears to be the case.

• That is, at the top you have the Emperor (not within the clan but the lord to whom the Clan Champion owes allegiance so worth noting)
• Below him, you have the clan champion - for the sake of argument, Shiba Tsukune
  • The clan champion is (almost? can't think of an exception) the head of the ruling family, which is usually the kami-descended one, so 'pure-blood' members of that family owe allegiance to them.
  • Equally, the heads of the various families owe allegiance to the clan champion - in the case of the Isawa, it's the Council of Five.
    • Then you have 'pure-blood' Isawa
      • Below all this you have the Buke, who are samurai families that are vassals of those families, or are vassals of the ruling family but aren't significant enough or respected enough to qualify as a family in their own right but are separate vassal families with their own traditions and bloodline if you be look closely enough. We are told these are the majority of samurai. They would still see themselves as 'Phoenix Samurai', and would be introduced as (for example) "Isawa Kosori no Kaito" - still "Isawa Kosori", but not a pure-blood Isawa. Bear in mind that in previous material, a great clan family had several vassal families (as an example, the Daidoji had four; Fujihiro, Hiramichi, Hiramori and Junichi).
        • Theoretically, there's no reason vassals couldn't in turn have vassals.
        • Below them you have Bonge and other non-samurai

A key thing to note is whether a 'Daidoji Samurai' is actually a pure-blood Daidoji or is actually a Daidoji vassal; their naming convention doesn't make it transparent when dealing with non-crane unless they make a point of it (Daidoji Tanaka no Junichi).

Essentially:

1. You always have a 'lord' - that being the fundamental thing of not just Samurai but everyone in the celestial order (and not having one being part of the core definition of a ronin)
2. Elevation for service involves your lord's lord (or someone above him!) taking your fealty directly.
3. If you're not a vassal family but are just a bunch of faceless scrubbers (but still ji-samurai or are elevated to that status) then you can be elevated to or accepted as a vassal family, with a clan family accepting your allegiance (a bunch of Hyōketsu Yobanjin became Isawa vassals - the Kaito - as part of a treaty to stop a war between the tribe and the Isawa)
4. If you're a vassal family head, your current lord is probably the head of the clan family whom you are vassals to, and promotion means moving up from vassal family to full clan family, now owing allegiance to the clan champion in a theoretically-equal-but-not-because-social-status way to the head of the family you were previously vassals to (this is what has just happened to the Kaito)
5. If you're a clan family head, your current lord is the clan champion as head of the clan. promotion means moving up from clan family to a separate clan, now owing allegiance directly to the Emperor himself.

Who has the right to elevate stuff people is a fair question; obviously at minimum it obviously needs the approval of the new lord.

Whether a vassal family has the authority to elevate a courageous ashigaru to the rank of ji-samurai? I don't know. I imagine in practice they'd want a nod from the clan family they serve, or even the clan champion, but in practice are they ever going to get it? I'm not sure how common this is.

I agree- with kind of crossed wires with the ronin topic , that this is where the question lies; if a vassal family is made a clan family, it's obviously entitled to vassals of its own.

• It may have them already - vassals of vassals (even if not 'vassals' in a strict legal sense) would presumably be down-the-ranks Ji-samurai.
  • So imagine Kochiro Arai, a Ji-samurai serving Isawa Kamei no Kaito.
    • When the Kaito get elevated to become a full Phoenix family, Isawa Kamei no Kaito becomes Kaito Kamei, and accepts Arai as a formal vassal with the right to use his family name (i.e. full samurai, not ji-samurai). Kochiro Arai becomes Kaito Aria no Kochiro.
• The elevation probably comes with new lands or responsibilities, which may come 'pre-staffed' with vassals
  • A town might have a ji-samurai administrator, who owes fealty to a clan family even if they don't rate the right to use that clan family's name. If that family elevates a vassal family to clan family status and includes the town in some initial parcel of lands deeded to the new family as a domain, then they may well be told by their current lord "this Isawa town is now a Kaito town, instead of working for the Isawa, you work for the new Kaito family."

3 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Given the way the Kaito pop up, this appears to be the case.

• That is, at the top you have the Emperor (not within the clan but the lord to whom the Clan Champion owes allegiance so worth noting)
• Below him, you have the clan champion - for the sake of argument, Shiba Tsukune
  • The clan champion is (almost? can't think of an exception) the head of the ruling family, which is usually the kami-descended one, so 'pure-blood' members of that family owe allegiance to them.
  • Equally, the heads of the various families owe allegiance to the clan champion - in the case of the Isawa, it's the Council of Five.
    • Then you have 'pure-blood' Isawa
      • Below all this you have the Buke, who are samurai families that are vassals of those families, or are vassals of the ruling family but aren't significant enough or respected enough to qualify as a family in their own right but are separate vassal families with their own traditions and bloodline if you be look closely enough. We are told these are the majority of samurai. They would still see themselves as 'Phoenix Samurai', and would be introduced as (for example) "Isawa Kosori no Kaito" - still "Isawa Kosori", but not a pure-blood Isawa. Bear in mind that in previous material, a great clan family had several vassal families (as an example, the Daidoji had four; Fujihiro, Hiramichi, Hiramori and Junichi).
        • Theoretically, there's no reason vassals couldn't in turn have vassals.
        • Below them you have Bonge and other non-samurai

Can I just say I find it funny you use Shiba Tsukune "for the sake of argument", then mention that the "Clan Champions is (almost? Can't think of an exception) the head of the ruling family[...]", when the Phoenix are the exception. Tsukune is a Shiba (descended from the Kami Shiba) and the Clan Champion, but unlike the other Clans her role is closer to that of majordomo than ruler, as she's subservient to the Council of Elemental Masters.

16 minutes ago, Mangod said:

Can I just say I find it funny you use Shiba Tsukune "for the sake of argument", then mention that the "Clan Champions is (almost? Can't think of an exception) the head of the ruling family[...]", when the Phoenix are the exception. Tsukune is a Shiba (descended from a the Kami Shiba) and the Clan Champion, but unlike the other Clans her role is closer to that of majordomo than ruler, as she's subservient to the Council of Elemental Masters.

It is funny, but the Kaito, as a perfect example for the rest of his explanation of how the transition from Vassal to separate family would likely be done in world, is likely why he went with them.

Been busy, so I'm late to the party as usual.

On 9/14/2018 at 12:12 AM, TheHobgoblyn said:

They really, really got out of control in the original game. It is all good to start off saying "Oh, there are only 100 of these guys. This is just an example of the kind of weird offshoots and special stories we have in the empire", the very moment one goes and gives them their own unique name and animal and symbol-- well, they naturally become important and prominent. There effectively become infinite numbers of them, just as there are infinite numbers of every family in a great clan. No matter how many people in a Great Clan family get killed, there will always be more. In fact, I think we have examples within the Great Clans too where we are told that 60% of the clan belongs to one family and that other family just started a generation ago with one guy... but the later family ends up getting printed and talked about and displayed just as often as the former.

No, if there was a problem with the number of minor clan in the old lore it was that they were far too few rather than too many. Now if you make the great clan less monolithic, and their families more independent, that problem is lessened, altought there are still some good reasons from a lore and verisimilitude point of view for why you would want more minor clans.

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But, Minor Clans? Even if the text flat out states that they are smaller than a vassal family, just on the basis of being a "minor clan" they demand their own special cards and own special school with their own special techniques and their own unique color scheme, and it needs to be displayed prominently whenever the "totality" of Rokugan is told.

Well, not only did they not demand it but for the most part they didn't get those cards.

And if there are flat out statements that the minor clans are smaller than vassal families, then there is textual evidence also contradicting those statements. It certanly it wasn't even remotely implied during the early stages of 1st Edition.

The Centipede which were one of the smaller clans were made out of around 50 family units and had some 100-200 ronin on near permanent retainer in 1st Edition.

The Hare were able to gather around 800 samurai in hours to Face the Scorpion in the original Hare Clan adventure. One could assume that given more time they would be able to gather a more powerful force. This BTW means that they were larger than the Ise Zumi order.

The Monkey gathered a large proportion of Totur's army.

The Mantis were supposed to be around 60 000 as a minor clan as they originally absorbed wat were supposed to be the two smaller minor clans.

Numbers for the other clans are not forthcoming but I would say that any taxative statement that A is always bigger than B are wrong. Some vassal families are larger than some minor clans, some minor clans are larger than some vassal families and we should look into it in a case by case basis.

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And it is especially bad given that we are told that each Great Clan has only 3-5 family names within them, completely and totally. Someone comes up with 10 random minor clans and that accounts for a significant portion of the names one is ever even going to hear in the setting.

Due to other wordbuilding aspects I don't particularly like it, but I fail to see how that's an issue, more so when we consider that Rokugan has a long enough history for the Galton-Watson process to manifest.

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And then there is the issue of some of them having such very weak and lame concepts.

The Dragonfly shouldn't be called "Tonbo" because that is lame, furthermore they ought to simply be a Dragon Clan vassal family. And not "vassal family" like the old RPG defined them which went to show that they had no clue at all what a "vassal" was, but in "They work for the Dragon Clan, but are considered lower in station than regular Dragon Clan members". The Dragon effectively adopted them anyway, so what is this whole thing about "we want to have presence in court, but instead of going there ourselves we'll have this minor clan that is greatly outnumbered and doesn't even have the power to represent us do it for us"? That whole concept doesn't remotely work! Which nullifies the Dragonfly even having a point to existing.

There need not be a "Tortoise Clan", but rather there can just be a Kasuga family that reports directly to the Otomo.

The Fox Clan certainly need not remain its own thing once the Ki-rin returned to Rokugan. Isn't their families vow to their founder eternal? So what is up with not embracing and reintegrating with their cousins once they return to the empire? Again, the name "Kitsune" is dumb, but moreover-- they ought to just be a minor Unicorn family that is a bit more familiar with Rokugani culture because they never left the lands.

The Hare Clan was invented for the simply purpose of being the victims in an early RPG adventure where they didn't want any of the existing clans to stand in as the victims and wanted the whole thing to happen on "neutral ground" so that players from any clan could participate. Beyond that-- they never served any purpose.

Not a fan fan of L5R naming practices as I've stated elsewhere. The animal clan thing is very much a 90s thing inspired the WW design paradigm which was very much an influence on John Wick and by some tangentialy related genre media which was convenient for CCG purposes.

Fortunately you can completely drop the Clan names easily with 0 impact on the game. The family names unfortunately we'll probably stuck with.

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And beyond that, most of their founding stories make no sense.

"Hey, you are a member of a Great Clan that did a heroic act? Congratulations! And it seems you also gained the attention of the emperor! Now, let's reward your heroism by stripping you and your vassals and all of your descendants of the rank and privilege and safety afforded to Great Clans, take land away from a Great Clan's border just to make them angry, and then remind everyone that any Great Clan is free to attack you and slaughter you all and take all your holdings and won't be remotely questioned or reprimanded for it! Have a good day!!"

It could not possibly make any less sense. And none of them should have survived even a single generation before being absorbed, willingly or not, into another clan.

The only ones that I could remotely see an exception being made for would be

1) The Badger, because they wanted to set up their castle and holdings in some remote part of the empire that no one wanted so... sure.
2) The Boar, but only if one removes all concept of them being part of the Crab clan initially. If they were a bunch of miners who disappeared into the mountains where no one else was interested in going for decades and reemerged to give a ton of mine to the Imperials, then... sure, they could be told they were now in charge of the region and to keep up the good work.
3) The Fox after the rest of their Great Clan left leaving only a small contingent that couldn't really be afforded the same standing after most of their clan left the lands, but only until the Unicorn returned-- at which point they should have just rejoined their clan.\
4) The Mantis, because... again.. they decided to set up shop in unclaimed lands back when there were unclaimed lands to set up shop in. Since any attempt to take their islands would be more costly than the islands were worth, they would be pretty safe.

The rest of them just... ought not to exist and it is a major mistake to start reintegrating these things back into the newly rejuvenated setting.

Here's the thing. What samurai and clan do is administer lands. that's it. Nothing else.

More importantly it's in the Hantei's vested intereest to have the largest number of minor clan possible. One of the worldbuilding aspect I've never been to keen in L5R was the relatively small size of the Imperial aligned families and land. Even if we take the Crane to have co-opted the Hantei we have a problem because, textually, their combined might and area off influence is still relatively small, and more importanly, hard to defend.

Creating minor clans is one way to increase your follower base, create clien relations, and weaken the great clans by severing bonds over some of their vassals.

If anything this should be happening a lot more frequently and the Hantei should be doing it left and right in particular to the Lion clan.

Also, and I really like to repeat this, the Great Clans should be far less monolithic.

On 9/25/2018 at 12:35 PM, Magnus Grendel said:

Who has the right to elevate stuff people is a fair question; obviously at minimum it obviously needs the approval of the new lord.

Why? I mean, in theory sure, but in practice, historically, it's been extremely rare for that kind of micromanagemente to be exerted. Mostly because, generally, it wasn't even necessary. If enforceable at all, that is.

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Whether a vassal family has the authority to elevate a courageous ashigaru to the rank of ji-samurai? I don't know. I imagine in practice they'd want a nod from the clan family they serve, or even the clan champion, but in practice are they ever going to get it? I'm not sure how common this is.

There is a worldbuilding issue here that's hard to tackle*, but why are we assuming that Ashigaru are not samurai? And what ou mean by ji-samurai**? Someone that holds land through allodial title? As a lieutnenancy? Something else?

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I agree- with kind of crossed wires with the ronin topic , that this is where the question lies; if a vassal family is made a clan family, it's obviously entitled to vassals of its own.

• It may have them already - vassals of vassals (even if not 'vassals' in a strict legal sense) would presumably be down-the-ranks Ji-samurai.
  • So imagine Kochiro Arai, a Ji-samurai serving Isawa Kamei no Kaito.
    • When the Kaito get elevated to become a full Phoenix family, Isawa Kamei no Kaito becomes Kaito Kamei, and accepts Arai as a formal vassal with the right to use his family name (i.e. full samurai, not ji-samurai). Kochiro Arai becomes Kaito Aria no Kochiro.
• The elevation probably comes with new lands or responsibilities, which may come 'pre-staffed' with vassals
  • A town might have a ji-samurai administrator, who owes fealty to a clan family even if they don't rate the right to use that clan family's name. If that family elevates a vassal family to clan family status and includes the town in some initial parcel of lands deeded to the new family as a domain, then they may well be told by their current lord "this Isawa town is now a Kaito town, instead of working for the Isawa, you work for the new Kaito family."

Speaking of unclear language in L5R...

Ok, first of all a vassal is someone who holds a oath of personal service. Just that, nothing else. Owning, or not owning land, in whatever mode, is irrelevant. Now, what L5R refers to as vassal families are actually enfeoffed vassals to borrow a european term. Lesser houses would be a more apt descritpion than vassal families if you really wanted to make that distinction.

Using the Tokugawa kashindan as an example at the top level you have the Daimyo some 300 landed familes divided in Fudai and Tozama with holdings providing incomes between 10000 and 1000000 koku directly sworn to the Tokugawa. Despite being incredibly wealthy and having vassals of their own they were still vassals to the Tokugawa.

Bellow this rank, in the Tokugawa (the daimyo could rank their own vassals however they wanted, they are their personal vassals and comp), were the hatamoto, whose income went from 100 to 9500 koku. On the upper end, some of these guys actually held land on their own name and did have personal vassals, but for the most part they were just paid a stipend.

Finally we have the Gokenin which were the rank and file clerks and soldiers.

Now, regading on how who gets or hires new vassals, the important thing is that these people reproduce. The problem is that their sources of income do not. And your job as master of ceremonies can only be inherited by one of your five sons. Hopefully you're connected enough to get them some clerical job with some small fudai daimyo lest they be forced to become ronin layabouts or just mooch of their brother. Or that aging Koke is childless and you're children are just perfect to take over job when he retires. If you're really desperate you can marry them to some rich merchant's daughter...

Basically, nepotism, kinda rules, and there is always a bevy of not quite, but almost, ronin, hangers on and iddle relatives that are not in service and can provide the basis of your very own vassal band, if you can afford to pay them.

*The issue wether Rokugani society was created wholecloth by the Kami or did they co-opt and installed themselves at the top of a largely pre-existing society. Depending on how you anwer this question this might have a tremendous influence on what you consider to be the origin of peasants and/or commoners.

**Seriously, L5R use of very specific terms to refer to something completely unrelated is incredibly grating. If any writer reads this, please, don't use Ji-Samurai to mean low ranking samurai. At the very least ji-samurai were friggin' Gentry...

35 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Why? I mean, in theory sure, but in practice, historically, it's been extremely rare for that kind of micromanagemente to be exerted. Mostly because, generally, it wasn't even necessary. If enforceable at all, that is.

Because elevating someone ultimately means them swearing allegiance. If it's all below your level, who cares, but if it's putting someone new as your immediate subordinate, you would. Creating a new clan family daimyo otherwise involves creating a post at the same level of authority as your own, which few systems allow you to do.

A clan champion doesn't care if a clan family's vassal family accepts some new servants, or even if a clan family later grants those servants the status of a formally recognised vassal family with the right to bear their clan family name.

I doubt they'd have much say in the inheritance of Daimyo status within a clan family, either (except their own, obviously), because that's not creating a new post, it's maintaining one that already exists.

Creating a full new clan family means a new personal vassal for the clan champion, though, just like creating a new clan means a new personal vassal for the emperor.

35 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

And what ou mean by ji-samurai**? Someone that holds land through allodial title? As a lieutnenancy? Something else?

Ji-Samurai, as I understand it (I'm not stating historical) was a Buke Samurai who was served but was not entitled to personally use the name of a Great Clan family.

So in tiers of 'importance' within a Great Clan family:

• Ji-Samurai Buke (Clan servant): Jim-Bob no Whatever (the latter added as necessary to identify him from other Jim-Bobs).
• 'full' Samurai Buke (Vassal Family member): Hida Jim-Bob no Whatever (the latter generally appended when on Hida lands to make it clear he's not 'core family')
• 'high ranking' Samurai Kuge/highest tiers of Buke (Clan family): Whatever Jim-Bob

35 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Ok, first of all a vassal is someone who holds a oath of personal service. Just that, nothing else. Owning, or not owning land, in whatever mode, is irrelevant

Agreed about owning land, but that oath of personal service may come about as a result of you occupying a position (which may or may not be connected to land ownership). Becoming the daimyo/taisho/governor/whatever means certain individuals become your immediate feudal subordinates and will hence become your vassals.

'Vassal' as a term has been used in multiple settings over centuries, with even such things as vassal states, let alone families, having existed

35 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

but why are we assuming that Ashigaru are not samurai?

Based on the Beta rulebook, which lists Ashigaru under "those who work" (the Bonge/Heimin) rather than 'those who serve' (the Kuge/Buke)

How historically accurate that is, I'm not in a position to comment.

2 hours ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Based on the Beta rulebook, which lists Ashigaru under "those who work" (the Bonge/Heimin) rather than 'those who serve' (the Kuge/Buke)

How historically accurate that is, I'm not in a position to comment.

Well, if Wikipedia is to be trusted, Ashigaru are peasant militia or -mercenaries. And assuming this version treats Ashigaru the same as O5R:

We can probably safely assume that the Ashigaru in L5R are farmers and the like who've had a spear thrust into their hands before being sent to the frontlines.

1 hour ago, Mangod said:

Well, if Wikipedia is to be trusted, Ashigaru are peasant militia or -mercenaries. And assuming this version treats Ashigaru the same as O5R:

We can probably safely assume that the Ashigaru in L5R are farmers and the like who've had a spear thrust into their hands Before being sent to the frontlines.

Typically this seems to be the case. They're conscripted to fight in the war, but they are otherwise 'just' peasants. They go back to their fields when the fighting is done.

I think the Crab (maybe the Lion as well) had 'always-active' Ashigaru units. Defending the Wall is an anytime, all the time job, and they can't defend it with just samurai. And then given the Lion having the second-largest army in Rokugan (or as I tend to see it phrased "the largest standing army in the Empire"), they likely have full-time standing units of Ashigaru as well, which would allow them to get drills in best to ensure a smoother application of tactics in warfare.

Budoka was one previous name for 'professional' (ish) peasant-born soldiers - albeit more in a 'town watch' capacity than an 'army auxiliary'.

On 9/27/2018 at 6:59 PM, Suzume Chikahisa said:

Speaking of unclear language in L5R...

Ok, first of all a vassal is someone who holds a oath of personal service. Just that, nothing else. Owning, or not owning land, in whatever mode, is irrelevant. Now, what L5R refers to as vassal families are actually enfeoffed vassals to borrow a european term. Lesser houses would be a more apt descritpion than vassal families if you really wanted to make that distinction.

Using the Tokugawa kashindan as an example at the top level you have the Daimyo some 300 landed familes divided in Fudai and Tozama with holdings providing incomes between 10000 and 1000000 koku directly sworn to the Tokugawa. Despite being incredibly wealthy and having vassals of their own they were still vassals to the Tokugawa.

Bellow this rank, in the Tokugawa (the daimyo could rank their own vassals however they wanted, they are their personal vassals and comp), were the hatamoto, whose income went from 100 to 9500 koku. On the upper end, some of these guys actually held land on their own name and did have personal vassals, but for the most part they were just paid a stipend.

Finally we have the Gokenin which were the rank and file clerks and soldiers.

Now, regading on how who gets or hires new vassals, the important thing is that these people reproduce. The problem is that their sources of income do not. And your job as master of ceremonies can only be inherited by one of your five sons. Hopefully you're connected enough to get them some clerical job with some small fudai daimyo lest they be forced to become ronin layabouts or just mooch of their brother. Or that aging Koke is childless and you're children are just perfect to take over job when he retires. If you're really desperate you can marry them to some rich merchant's daughter...

Basically, nepotism, kinda rules, and there is always a bevy of not quite, but almost, ronin, hangers on and iddle relatives that are not in service and can provide the basis of your very own vassal band, if you can afford to pay them.

Yes, that is what vassal means. Technically all the great clan daimyo are vassals to the emperor and all of the family daimyos are vassals to the Clan Champion and so far down the system.

The issue is how the term "vassal family" was used in the previous incarnation and thus I have no better vocabulary to describe the distinction.

For Clans, what should be most important is that they governor and manage the land. Whatever unique specializations and skills they might have, that generally seems to have arisen naturally from the nature of the land that they were assigned to. The Crab Clan was put on the outskirts right next to the Shadowlands and thus had to learn to cleanse corruption, build the best fortifications that could stand up to horde of oni and to just put aside some of the more superfluous flourishes that other clans might engage in to focus on what immediately contributes to survival. The Crane, on the other hand, were given lands next to the sea rich abundant in riches of both fish and rice, so much so that they basically feed the empire and set what is considered throughout the land the cultural menu. And as riches flowed in, they were able to buy their way around court, and absorb themselves in the art, fashion, painting, stories and other arts.

So the clans' job was to manage particular lands and those lands had an affect on who they became generation after generation until become what they are now. Sure, it was stated that Hantei assigned them "roles", but that was so unnecessary and counter-intuitive that it really seemed more like folk-lore. Folklore that the Scorpion tell themselves so that they don't have to admit that the real reason they are hard-edged bastards that disregard all decency and respect is because "it's their duty", a highly dubious claim on its face as no good has ever arisen from Scorpion activities and the best they have ever accomplished is assisting in putting out the very fires their selfish and reckless abandoned causes, rather than the simple fact that they have the worst, most unproductive lands and if they tried to live like the Crane, they would all starve.

Now, when it comes to individual families within a clan-- that is where we see less of a focus on "manage the land" and you start getting into "Our main family branch doesn't do X very well, why don't you specialize in X to compliment us?"

So when it comes to minor clans...

In the cases where we have "no one wanted to live there, these 'samurai' decided to set up there and are governing these lands, gathering the resources and delivering them as tax payments to the Emperor" then that's totally cool, that sounds like a legitimate reason to have a minor clan. Some random group decided to set themselves up on some borderlands that were being ignored? Oh, a non-heir son of a Clan Champion ran away and he and a bunch of others set up on those islands out there and got the people who weren't even considered part of our empire to start working for the empire's behalf? A bunch of 'samurai' set up on the mountains outside of Crab claimed lands and have had the commoners of the area mining a ton of ore? Those all seem like cases where maybe a minor clan could arise, but I imagine that many of those families were not technically in the samurai caste when the social hierarchy was constituted, but probably they at least filled out their ranks with the leaders or best of the commoners they found there since it is extremely unlikely that a samurai with sufficient station within a Great Clan to have enough retainers to take over and settle lands outside of their clan's jurisdiction would ever either choose or be allowed to do so and bring all their vassals along.

That's all fine and good.

But things got wonky very, very quickly.

First, the original origin for both the Dragonfly and the Wasp clans indicated that cross-clan marriages were something extraordinarily rare and inherently shameful and if anyone were to ever marry someone outside their own clan, both clans would basically seek to destroy them over this. So like-- every single time there was a cross-clan marriage, apparently a new minor clan would have to arise.

Once the ideas for the setting were better solidified, that cross-clan marriages were actually quite common and normal and that in such marriages one of the two would give up their clan identity-- the entire origin for both the Wasp and the Dragonfly were rendered the complete antithesis of how the setting actually functioned.

Nevermind the absolute silliness of the idea that the intra-clan conflict about both sides fighting who gets to wipe these guys out came to such a fever pitch that the Imperials decided to step and and resolve it by.... granting them a minor clan status. Because apparently that resolves the conflict in any way anyone would be satisfied with.

And then there were those that were even worse...

So, you see, there is this guy called Isawa who basically worked as a magistrate that hunted down blood-magic users. And so instead of remaining a proper Phoenix clan member and maybe opening a school in order to teach his techniques to other Phoenix.... lands were taken away from the Phoenix clan to award to him along to governor so that he could... specialize in hunting users of Blood Magic... because, you know, apparently having to suddenly start governing lands instead of either focusing on his cases or teaching others how to do it supposedly assists him in this?!!

Or the ones that were outright jokes. The "Bee Clan" that was about fashion or the "Tanuki" who were assigned to investigate ghosts, things that those in Rokugan in fact know are real things, but their reports were taken as jokes.

None of these were about them governing lands or them being shaped by the lands they govern. Some writer just randomly had an animal pop in their head, got a wonky idea about a special talent that seemed related to that animal and then said "Yeah, the Emperor made them a Minor Clan just so they could be assigned this animal that I thought would be cute as a mascot and then told them to do such-and-such that they are now the singular specialists in throughout the empire."

The whole thing about being a Minor Clan though would be that, while you do answer to the Emperor, you are otherwise sovereign in your own lands just like the Great Clans are. You aren't directly positioned under someone else.

But then you would get a wonky case like the "Kaeru" in the City of the Rich Frog. In that case, you had a group who rose to power within a neutral trade city, then paid the Emperor to grant them governorship of the city-- pretty much exactly what the "Boar Clan" did-- but they weren't called a "Minor Clan" because instead some writer got it into their head that there should be something called "Ronin Families" and decided that this was an ideal example of what one should be.

Now, maybe it isn't the best possible term, but the other way to go-- the way many of the previous minor clans should be reinterpreted I feel-- is that there is a concept of "You get your own family name, but you aren't sovereign in the lands you occupy, some other family is between you and the Emperor."

So often it seems that these are started by families to serve the members of their family with some function. So they would be one rank lower on the overall hierarchy scale.

Emperor
Clan Main Family
Clan Sub Family
Clan Vassal Family

Of course, the odd thing about this is that many origin stories for these are that they are descendants of heroes of the family that they supposedly serve. And while I could see that maybe you would want to continue the legacy of such a person, it would be weird that their descendants would then be expected to work for and answer to members of their own family. But putting aside that oddity...

We could see that the Isawa Chuda Snake Clan really would have made more sense to be an Isawa Vassal Family rather than a minor clan as having them be a minor clan did not coincide with their purpose for existing-- the lands they occupied had already been governed fine and they weren't supposed to be focused on governing or defending lands at all, their job was supposed to he to train magistrates to hunt down Bloodspeakers.

Another perfect example of a "Minor clan" that doesn't feel like it should be a Clan, is the Tortoise. They don't have their own lands, or at least whatever little they might clan is stuck right up in there next to Castle Otomo and Castle Seppun and the Seppun controlled city and so forth. They exist entirely on fishing and trade. Now, obviously there is a reason one might not want exactly to refer to them as an "Imperial Family" due to the fact that they are kind of slimey and dirty customers and ought no carry the same distinction and respect as a Miya or Seppun or Otomo (then again, I don't know how much respect is really afforded to the random Otomo Census Clerk, the Seppun whose job is to guard a random Brotherhood Temple in the boondocks or the random Miya cartographer constantly working on the official imperial maps). However, they are definitely more a "family that works for the imperials" thing than a "sovereign clan administering this region" thing.

2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

But things got wonky very, very quickly.

First, the original origin for both the Dragonfly and the Wasp clans indicated that cross-clan marriages were something extraordinarily rare and inherently shameful and if anyone were to ever marry someone outside their own clan, both clans would basically seek to destroy them over this. So like-- every single time there was a cross-clan marriage, apparently a new minor clan would have to arise.

Once the ideas for the setting were better solidified, that cross-clan marriages were actually quite common and normal and that in such marriages one of the two would give up their clan identity-- the entire origin for both the Wasp and the Dragonfly were rendered the complete antithesis of how the setting actually functioned.

Nevermind the absolute silliness of the idea that the intra-clan conflict about both sides fighting who gets to wipe these guys out came to such a fever pitch that the Imperials decided to step and and resolve it by.... granting them a minor clan status. Because apparently that resolves the conflict in any way anyone would be satisfied with.

So first of your flaws here as you are misscharacterizing the formation of these families. The Wasp were not formed as a reaction to a Scorpion/Lion marriage but because the daughter of a Lion General abandoned her father and her duty to the clan to be with her Scorpion lover against the wishes of her family. It was never about the fact she married a scorpion its that she abandoned her duty and shamed her family in the process.

The Tonbo its similar as a Phoenix Samurai-Ko broke her engagement to a Lion general to marry her true love a Dragon Samurai (funny how often Lion aggression crops up in the formation of minor clans). The Tonbo were formed out of the fall out from the broken engagement as an attempt to curtail the Lion from declaring open war against the Dragon and Phoenix.

It makes sense when you consider what the Imperials use the minor clans as. They are speed bumps meant to block off contentious points of conflict between the clans because by Imperial Decree the Great Clans are forbidden from making war on the Minors without express Imperial permission. They are the gnat that sits between them and the clans know that if they don't step carefully around them than they are giving their opponents in court all the ammunition they need to bring the full might of the Empire down on them.

2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

And then there were those that were even worse...

So, you see, there is this guy called Isawa who basically worked as a magistrate that hunted down blood-magic users. And so instead of remaining a proper Phoenix clan member and maybe opening a school in order to teach his techniques to other Phoenix.... lands were taken away from the Phoenix clan to award to him along to governor so that he could... specialize in hunting users of Blood Magic... because, you know, apparently having to suddenly start governing lands instead of either focusing on his cases or teaching others how to do it supposedly assists him in this?!!

And here you are forgetting how this can play into inter-clan politics. The other clans would not react well to Phoenix clan members showing up and just claiming hey we're here to investigate Maho and we think your clan is a hot bed of it. Eventually pressures will rise and you get a war. To avoid that eventuality you're realistically only left with two choices bring the role under Imperial Jurisdiction (which it already was to an extent being one of the myriad of tasks that Imperial Magistrates undertake, and was later covered by the role of Jade Magistrates before the Phoenix used the failures of the champion at the time to discredit the position and have it disbanded) or you grant the job to a minor clan who will than have insulation from the great clans when they are fulfilling their Imperial mandated duties and if the clans feel they've gone to far, they need to bring their concerns to the Imperial court and seek permission to escalate hostilities. The only reason the Chuda fell the first time was the failure of the founders heir and his own weaknesses and fears leading to him being corrupted and damning his entire clan.

2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Or the ones that were outright jokes. The "Bee Clan" that was about fashion or the "Tanuki" who were assigned to investigate ghosts, things that those in Rokugan in fact know are real things, but their reports were taken as jokes.

None of these were about them governing lands or them being shaped by the lands they govern. Some writer just randomly had an animal pop in their head, got a wonky idea about a special talent that seemed related to that animal and then said "Yeah, the Emperor made them a Minor Clan just so they could be assigned this animal that I thought would be cute as a mascot and then told them to do such-and-such that they are now the singular specialists in throughout the empire."

The whole thing about being a Minor Clan though would be that, while you do answer to the Emperor, you are otherwise sovereign in your own lands just like the Great Clans are. You aren't directly positioned under someone else.

These were actually being done as tributes to players and play groups as contributing to the over all health of the environment and thanks for the effort they put into growing the game and were normally related to story line prizes won by players from those groups. You may not like it but they put legitimate effort into earning those privileges so there should be some effort shown for that effort being given.

its not that they are the only specialists in any field (after all taking just the Chuda family as an example the Phoenix and Crab both have families who are equally specialized in dealing with Bloodspeakers and other Maho users) but that their status as a Minor Clan insulates them from the overt hostility of the other great clans and if one clan starts to look to enviously at them without good reason then the other clans can use that as an excuse to push for imperial sanctions against them and draw their own benefit from the punished clan.

That is all fine and good, but with a clean continuity everything should be streamlined.

The main task of any minor clan should be to administer and govern their lands-- to make sure the peasants are working and food gets produced, resources get gathered, taxes get paid.

If someone's sole job is to provide a service, a service that governing lands would interfere with, and especially a service that is already being provided by others with more power and authority, then that ought to be something entirely separate. Whether they are serving a specific clan or working under Imperial authority as something separate.

Where possible, instead of having 50 minor clans so that the RPG has to come up with a unique school filled with completely unique techniques that no other school has, where possible just merge them into the main factions so that the main factions can be more diverse. It doesn't serve anyone to have everything that doesn't fit a narrow band be outside of a Great Clan.

If a Minor Clan family didn't have a proper name before, give them a proper name.

I am not against there still being Tsuruchi and Moshi, but people really only cared about them as part of the Mantis faction to begin with. So why not just skip over all the "minor clan alliance" nonsense and just start with the Tsuruchi being an outlaw band/school of archers that are already working for Yoritomo? It cuts out the predictable stuff and gets directly to the result people already want to see.

And, really, what is even the point of having a new continuity if you insist that every random ill-advised story prize every handed out during the CCG era be implemented exactly as is within the new continuity?

2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

That is all fine and good, but with a clean continuity everything should be streamlined.

...

I don't think someone who repeatedly demonstrates their lack of attention to the old continuity is really the best judge here. Not that some of the specific examples don't have merit as "yeah, they should probably have not existed," but as a sweeping blanket argument, it fails on several levels.

Quote

The main task of any minor clan should be to administer and govern their lands-- to make sure the peasants are working and food gets produced, resources get gathered, taxes get paid.

And in the old canon, every minor clan was assigned lands (or, in the case of the Ox, took them, and then administered them where the previous designees proved incapable of preventing them from doing so). Sure, those lands often got steamrolled, or reverted to Imperial control when the minor clan in question died out, or got absorbed by a Great Clan along with the direct fealty of the minor clan in question, but let's not pretend this didn't happen.

For one thing, every mainland holding the Mantis picked up in the old lore directly stemmed from lands held by the Centipede, Wasp, and later Fox.

Quote

Where possible, instead of having 50 minor clans so that the RPG has to come up with a unique school filled with completely unique techniques that no other school has, where possible just merge them into the main factions so that the main factions can be more diverse. It doesn't serve anyone to have everything that doesn't fit a narrow band be outside of a Great Clan.

...

Do you have any idea how many schools for the Great Clans existed in the 4th edition of the RPG?

I ask because this part of your post leads me to think you don't. They had a lot. Sure, minor clans got schools too, but in no way did mechanical diversity rest upon the MCA.

Now, with that said, yes, there are several Minor Clans who were so integrally tied to their great clan patrons that their independence was always... iffy.

The Bat never got to be more than an appendage of the Mantis.

The Dragonfly should really have been a Dragon family in the old lore, since their role was as gatekeepers to the Dragon- this was somewhat papered over by the idea that if they had been a great clan family, there would have been absolutely no barriers to the Lion declaring war on them without some other excuse, but it remained an odd fit.

The Falcon were sponged up by the Crab, and basically lost their niche purpose in the bargain.

The Snake were a Phoenix spinoff close enough to the Phoenix that lowering the boom was easy- probably should have been a vassal family.

The Monkey... good lord, the Monkey were a trainwreck of even this setting's tortured internal logic- not so much Toturi giving his buddy his own outfit to run, but the sheer amount of resources and political support they received meant they never felt like an actual minor clan, they felt like a new Imperial vassal family.

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If a Minor Clan family didn't have a proper name before, give them a proper name.

On this, at least, we more or less agree... except that for the most part, by the time of the IP sale, Minor Clans all had one or more family names. The lack of a family name thing, hilariously, is most famous in the case of the biggest outlier, the Mantis.

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I am not against there still being Tsuruchi and Moshi, but people really only cared about them as part of the Mantis faction to begin with.

Blatantly incorrect, if you look for the number of Wasp fans on this very board. And the assimilation of the Kitsune remains a sore point. The Centipede were indeed kind of oddballs, but that wasn't helped by the fact that their identity (matriarchal Phoenix-like pious sun worshipers) basically evaporated once they joined the Mantis.

Quote

So why not just skip over all the "minor clan alliance" nonsense and just start with the Tsuruchi being an outlaw band/school of archers that are already working for Yoritomo? It cuts out the predictable stuff and gets directly to the result people already want to see.

No, it doesn't "get directly to the result people already want to see." It tidies up some lines that only seem to bother... well, you, so far as I've been able to determine.

Quote

And, really, what is even the point of having a new continuity if you insist that every random ill-advised story prize every handed out during the CCG era be implemented exactly as is within the new continuity?

Nice strawman. There is absolutely no sign as of yet of the Ox, Bat, Monkey (whose story is a glaring example, in my opinion, of how not to create a Minor Clan instead of just another Imperial vassal family), Firefly (and the name of the Crane Champion indicates we probably won't be seeing them... ever), or Tanuki, and with a new storyline, the events that led to the existence of the Ox, Bat, and Monkey, in particular, may never happen, and nobody has really advanced the idea that they must.

2 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

That is all fine and good, but with a clean continuity everything should be streamlined.

The main task of any minor clan should be to administer and govern their lands-- to make sure the peasants are working and food gets produced, resources get gathered, taxes get paid.

If someone's sole job is to provide a service, a service that governing lands would interfere with, and especially a service that is already being provided by others with more power and authority, then that ought to be something entirely separate. Whether they are serving a specific clan or working under Imperial authority as something separate.

Where possible, instead of having 50 minor clans so that the RPG has to come up with a unique school filled with completely unique techniques that no other school has, where possible just merge them into the main factions so that the main factions can be more diverse. It doesn't serve anyone to have everything that doesn't fit a narrow band be outside of a Great Clan.

If a Minor Clan family didn't have a proper name before, give them a proper name.

I am not against there still being Tsuruchi and Moshi, but people really only cared about them as part of the Mantis faction to begin with. So why not just skip over all the "minor clan alliance" nonsense and just start with the Tsuruchi being an outlaw band/school of archers that are already working for Yoritomo? It cuts out the predictable stuff and gets directly to the result people already want to see.

And, really, what is even the point of having a new continuity if you insist that every random ill-advised story prize every handed out during the CCG era be implemented exactly as is within the new continuity?

You don't have to bow to every story prize (especially since most of them are already invalidated by virtue of them having occurred later in the time line than where we are), but at the same time there is no harm in giving nods to the old player base where you can to show you acknowledged their dedication and it costs you absolutely nothing to do so (they've literally made zero reference to the Tanuki for example so they are a foot note in the history of the empire and actually do serve a purpose to demonstrate the power of the Emperor's how the whim of one can completely upset the life of a Samurai and they just have to role with it).

And just because the Samurai of a clan excel at a particular field does not mean that is all they do.. Every Minor Clan still has lands that they administer and they draw income for Imperial taxes from, they still have peasants that reside in their lands and owe a duty of service to their lords. Some lands may be more hospitable than others and offer greater resources but those aspects are all still their.

I get that you obviously don't like the concept of minor clans but there is chunk of the fan base for the setting that does. There were plenty of players who identified as Moshi, Tsuruchi and Kitsune separate from the Yoritomo (heck the Kitsune even had a revolt to maintain their independence when the Mantis first ascended to great clan status). They loved the idiosyncrasies of those clans and the back story elements that came with them so just saying abandon all that to bring it in line with your ideal of what the setting should be is you telling those players that your opinion is more important than theirs so they should shut up and accept it.

There were not 50 minor clans in the old setting there were 18 recognized minor clans in the Empire over the course of the game, 5 of those clans were created after the events of the 2nd day of Thunder so are not necessarily relevant o the current setting so you have 13 currently timeline relevant clans (and even 3 of those families are considered extinct at this point in the timeline so are more historical footnotes than necessary to take anything from the other clans).

41 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

There were not 50 minor clans in the old setting there were 18 recognized minor clans in the Empire over the course of the game, 5 of those clans were created after the events of the 2nd day of Thunder so are not necessarily relevant o the current setting so you have 13 currently timeline relevant clans (and even 3 of those families are considered extinct at this point in the timeline so are more historical footnotes than necessary to take anything from the other clans).

For the record, the currently existing Minor Clans are:

1. The Badger.
2. The Centipede.
3. The Dragonfly.
4. The Falcon.
5. The Fox.
6. The Hare.
7. The Mantis.
8. The Sparrow.
9. The Tortoise.
10. The Wasp.

Besides those, there was the Boar, the Snake and the Tanuki, all of whom are extinct in the eyes of the Empire.

The remaining five Minor Clans who were created post-present timeline are the Monkey, the Firefly, the Ox, the Bat and the Oriole.

The "Oriole" is just the Tsi family, a family stated to work directly for the Imperials as blacksmiths from Hantei XXX onward (so before the current continuity started). They were just given a spirit animal at the tail end of the CCG because well... everything has to be an independent clan with its own animal, doesn't it?

Look, the LCG has gone through 2 cycles already and there are about 30 characters for each clan and only 18 neutral personalities. The clan packs are going to add about 8 more. And, I am not entirely clear on this, but just how many cycles go by before everything is declared nonlegal and rendered worthless?

So why are you so eager to get them to flood the game with random Hare Clan, Boar Clan, Sparrow Clan, Falcon Clan, etc. characters? And not just characters, I would have to wager, because those traits would be useless unless there were event and attachments that trigger off those clan traits. But there are never going to be enough cards for any of them in a set of cycles so as to really make it anything more than a meta dead-end. I used to be in the mentality to try to use them in the old CCG, but they were never useful and it feels like they would be even less so in this LCG.

And what sense does it make to make a distinct Dragonfly Clan character if the main thing they are supposed to do is serve as go-betweens for the Dragon Clan and the rest of the empire? Shouldn't that just be printed as a Dragon Clan faction card? Wouldn't it just neatly streamline stuff to give Dragon Clan a new family that has a dragonfly as its symbol and everyone will immediately recognize it and say "Hey!! Yeah, those guys were called the 'Tonbo' before!" And then they would function the way they are meant to and would be about 100 times more useful than a neutral card with a printed clan trait that it would just be all the more wasteful to ever print cards that interact with it.

15 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

The "Oriole" is just the Tsi family, a family stated to work directly for the Imperials as blacksmiths from Hantei XXX onward (so before the current continuity started). They were just given a spirit animal at the tail end of the CCG because well... everything has to be an independent clan with its own animal, doesn't it?

Look, the LCG has gone through 2 cycles already and there are about 30 characters for each clan and only 18 neutral personalities. The clan packs are going to add about 8 more. And, I am not entirely clear on this, but just how many cycles go by before everything is declared nonlegal and rendered worthless?

So why are you so eager to get them to flood the game with random Hare Clan, Boar Clan, Sparrow Clan, Falcon Clan, etc. characters? And not just characters, I would have to wager, because those traits would be useless unless there were event and attachments that trigger off those clan traits. But there are never going to be enough cards for any of them in a set of cycles so as to really make it anything more than a meta dead-end. I used to be in the mentality to try to use them in the old CCG, but they were never useful and it feels like they would be even less so in this LCG.

And what sense does it make to make a distinct Dragonfly Clan character if the main thing they are supposed to do is serve as go-betweens for the Dragon Clan and the rest of the empire? Shouldn't that just be printed as a Dragon Clan faction card? Wouldn't it just neatly streamline stuff to give Dragon Clan a new family that has a dragonfly as its symbol and everyone will immediately recognize it and say "Hey!! Yeah, those guys were called the 'Tonbo' before!" And then they would function the way they are meant to and would be about 100 times more useful than a neutral card with a printed clan trait that it would just be all the more wasteful to ever print cards that interact with it.

At what point has anyone advocated for cards for every minor clan. They are present to add background to the setting for story and RPG purposes.

If it is decided that they are needed in the LCG than yes they become another trait option for Neutral characters (like Imperial), maybe with a benefit if they are used in an associated deck (for example a Tonbo personality with a printed has +1 Political if you are a Dragon Player). The Minor clans would however be excellent fodder for Neutral Conflict characters as well, something to represent the clans accidentally drawing one of them into an engagement and the unexpected interference that could impose. There is no reason that their inclusion needs to take anything away from the other clans and they can actually serve to fill the Neutral role of Ronin that you have seem to be dead set against.