2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

I bet Tadaka would love it if there were Crab right on his doorstep.

That’s another reason for me. Having paranoid crabs that can practically smell the Taint from miles away so near to Phoenix maybe serves as a deterrent for Phoenix playing with forbidden magic.

Just maybe...

3 hours ago, Nitenman said:

As a phoenix supporter too, I'd rather deal with educated scorpion that respect traditional magic, and their respected Soshi scholars than brutish crabs with their bizarre and dubious Kuni.

plus Bayushi was Shiba's twin, so scorpions are Phoenix's cousins.

Also, Phoenix want to investigate those strange spiritual phenomenon inside the city.

Crane doesn’t let us, Scorpion doesn’t like having other clans sniffing around their businesses, Crab can be willing to let us in, maybe for some help in the wall, or at least we trust their Kuni Shugenja to be more wary to evil forces meddling with spirits.

1 hour ago, Tabris2k said:

That’s another reason for me. Having paranoid crabs that can practically smell the Taint from miles away so near to Phoenix maybe serves as a deterrent for Phoenix playing with forbidden magic.

Just maybe...

Plus with Scorpion you would always have to worry about Junzo getting curious about certain old scrolls that may be ferreted away in the Isawa Libraries.

17 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Plus with Scorpion you would always have to worry about Junzo getting curious about certain old scrolls that may be ferreted away in the Isawa Libraries.

Scrolls? What scrolls? Dunno what you’re talking about. We know nothing about no scrolls here...

You are probably right. Let's put our trust in Kuni Yori instead. But I kinda heard Crabs have Terrible Standards

Just now, Nitenman said:

You are probably right. Let's put our trust in Kuni Yori instead. But I kinda heard Crabs have Terrible Standards

Yori was a great man, helped the crippled son of his Daimyo recover from the lose of this hand and let the poor disappointment in the family finally earn his fathers attention.

Anyone else remember the Legacy of the Forge? The Phoenix book had me thinking of them again. And near Toshi Ranbo too.

10 hours ago, Nitenman said:

can't wait for an official Dawn of the Empire till present days timeline from FFG, to see what is still canon.

Broadly speaking, it's all still canon. It's just that as you get closer to the "present", things are more likely to be subject to change. That's why the whole Tsume thing happening five years ago (or not) is something that might be changed in the canon, because it's recent enough that it might or might not fit with the story FFG is telling. I realize this all comes across as kinda "wishy washy", but telling a new story (and trying to not spoil it!) on top of a huge, existing canon is challenging, to say the least.

5 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

Broadly speaking, it's all still canon. It's just that as you get closer to the "present", things are more likely to be subject to change. That's why the whole Tsume thing happening five years ago (or not) is something that might be changed in the canon, because it's recent enough that it might or might not fit with the story FFG is telling. I realize this all comes across as kinda "wishy washy", but telling a new story (and trying to not spoil it!) on top of a huge, existing canon is challenging, to say the least.

Not just that, but trying to go through the entirety of pre-Clan War old canon with a fine-toothed comb and list off what's being kept and what's being dropped would be a nightmare.

I think it's easier to conceive of it all as Schroedinger's Canon: it is simultaneously true and not true, until somebody opens the box to look at it. ? When in doubt, probably assume true, because it's easier for us to leverage stuff the old players already know than to make up replacements -- but if it seems like it might not fit with the world as it's being presented in new canon, either because it would contradict some fact we've stated or because it strikes a noticeably different tone, then tip it toward the "probably not true" end of the spectrum.

As someone unfamiliar to the old l5r lore, i don't really know what to expect from these minor clans.

what role did they have in the previous iteration of the story?

7 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

As someone unfamiliar to the old l5r lore, i don't really know what to expect from these minor clans.

what role did they have in the previous iteration of the story?

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Tsuruchi_family

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Kitsune_family

19 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

As someone unfamiliar to the old l5r lore, i don't really know what to expect from these minor clans.

what role did they have in the previous iteration of the story?

A lot. The most prominent minor clan event was led by Yoritomo . As leader (or at least champion) of the Mantis (then, minor clan), he united as many minor clans as he could into Yoritomo's Alliance . Among the net results of this alliance, the Mantis were elevated into a great clan.

Narratively, minor clans are interwoven into - and often integral to - major storylines.

Sorry, Bro. I can't not.

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:15 PM, Tabris2k said:

That’s another reason for me. Having paranoid crabs that can practically smell the Taint from miles away so near to Phoenix maybe serves as a deterrent for Phoenix playing with forbidden magic.

Just maybe...

turns into

On ‎6‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 1:15 PM, Tabris2k said:

... Having ... crabs that can ... smell the Taint ... so near ..

8 minutes ago, mirrorcat said:

As someone unfamiliar to the old l5r lore, i don't really know what to expect from these minor clans.

what role did they have in the previous iteration of the story?

In summary the Fox were the members of the Ki-rin who stayed behind to mind their lands when Shinjo and the rest of the clan left for their long wander at the dawn of the Empire. Eventually the other clans seeing all the land that the small number of remaining members of the clan were holding started to get aggressive with them and when they couldn't defend the lands from foreign invaders the Lion stepped in and claimed them as their own. The Emperor for their own protection moved them off the Ki-rin lands and too the forests closer to the capital where he could protect them from the aggression of the other clans and where we saw the Imperial decree that the Great Clans could declare war against the Minor Clans. Over the years the Ki-rin who lived in the forests communed with the kitsune (Fox spirits not the clan) and other creatures of Chikushudo (the realm of Animals) that lived there and adopted many of the traits through frequent contact. When the Unicorn finally returned to the empire the Kitsune had grown so distant from their cousins that it was deemed to difficult for the two too re-integrate so they maintained their separate status. The fox were known for their mysticism and strong connection to the Realm of Chikushudo. Foxwives and other spirit connected individuals were very common in the clan.

The Wasp were one of the younger minor clans having been formed by Tsuruchi in 1109. He was the son of a Scorpion and Lion who went against the wishes of their clans by having an affair decided to to raise their son away from the politics of the two clans. His father was a cousin of Bayushi Shoju and his mother was the daughter of a Lion General so they were quite prominent and the whole sordid affair was quite the issue at the time. Eventually Tsuruchi's uncle attacked his parents castle and claimed if for the Lion to expunge the shame of his mother having abandoned the clan to be with her lover. A young Tsuruchi and small number of retainers escaped before the castle fell and he set about on a plot to avenge his parents. He offered his services and those of his surviving men to the Emerald Champion (at the time a Crane) and they were accepted into his service as much to spite the Lion and Scorpion as for their usefulness. Due to the way he had seen his family treated Tsuruchi had a strong disdain for the trappings of Samurai culture, going so far as to snap the blade of his families sword when his parents were betrayed and declaring that the bow would be his path to revenge and greatness. The Wasp as a whole were expert marksmen trained in woodcraft and hunting. They served as Bounty Hunters and magistrates for the Emerald Champion. Tsuruchi had great respect for Yoritomo and the efforts he put into elevating the minor clans and standing up to the aggression of the Great Clans during the Clan War and they one of the first families to swear fealty to Yoritomo when the Mantis were granted great clan status.

Quote

As someone unfamiliar to the old l5r lore, i don't really know what to expect from these minor clans.

what role did they have in the previous iteration of the story?

While the focus of the story is squarely on the Great Clans (and one Minor Clan, the Mantis), the inclusion of the Minor Clans helps flesh out the world and give more narrative options for storytelling. It allows, for example, the inclusions of samurai as characters who aren't from the Great Clans or the Imperial Families, permitting a different perspective on events in the Empire that's external to the ones we usually use. What you'll likely see is various Minor Clans being occasionally mentioned, and characters from them putting in occasional appearances. It's probably not likely that you'll see many stories specifically about Minor Clans, unless there's a good narrative reason to do it. Now, I say this from the perspective of a freelance writer with only a broad knowledge of the story going forward; the FFG story folks may have good reasons to do some stuff specifically about some of the Minor Clans--they're the boss, when it comes to the story--and if they, then the writers will write them.

The Mantis are somewhat different. They're also a Minor Clan but, because of their prominence in the previous incarnation of L5R (when it was owned by AEG)--including their elevation to Great Clan status--there are a fair number of players who became quite dedicated to them. To put it another way, there are some expectations regarding the Mantis that don't really apply to the other Minor Clans. Yes, the Wasp and Fox and Sparrow and so on all have their fans, and that's great...but the same level of engagement isn't there. The Mantis and their Champion, Yoritomo, are very popular (and, to some, very controversial!) so you'll probably keep seeing considerably more involvement of the Mantis in the story compared to, say, the Badger, Dragonfly, or any of the other Minor Clans. Again, I have to add that FFG might decide to involve the Minor Clans, either individually or as a group(s) in the story in a bigger way. That, of course, is their prerogative! In the short-term, though, any of them aside from the Mantis will probably appear more in the background and around the margins of stories about the Great Clans (and the Imperial Families, especially the Hantei i.e. the Emperor and his family).

6 hours ago, mirrorcat said:

As someone unfamiliar to the old l5r lore, i don't really know what to expect from these minor clans.

what role did they have in the previous iteration of the story?

For a somewhat more detailed overview of the old lore on the Minor Clans which might be Schrödinger canoned in the new lore :

Mantis: These were big and become a playable faction in the old game and as such have a well established fanbase. I don't know if FFG will make them playable in some way but they already have an important story presence. In the old lore they were one of the earliest minor clans, descending from a disinherited Hida with Matsu blood who ended up avenging his father's murder in Phoenix lands. I think in the old storyline this ended up being played up a bit too much with the Mantis and the Phoenix being contantly pitted against each other. Traditionally they've been the maritime trade and piracy clan.

Fox: Remnants of the Ki-Rin that stayed in the Empire, when attacked by the Lion the Emperar shifted their domain to the Kitsune Mori, renamed them and created the edict forbidding war against the Minor Clans. They established the Three Man Alliance with the Sparrow and Wasp Clans which was a major precursor to Yoritomo's Alliance. While they didn't join the Mantis when promoted to a Great Clan they were later forced to join in order to survive.

Badger: Possibly the first minor clan to be created their purpose was to secure the northern border of Rokugan (and later revealed to be the protectors of Ryoshun's grave). In the old lore they had a problem with a Oni and were on the brink of destruction for many years.

Sparrow: Descended from the Crane, they were created as either a **** you to the Crane, the Crab or their founder and largely serve as a buffer between those two great clans. They have the unenviable task of being caretakers of one of richest regions in Rokugan which they can't farm due to it being sacrossant. The portion they are actually allowed to live in is one of the poorest areas of Rokugan. As a result their samurai often engage in physical labour and are seen as country bumpkins because of this.

Centipede: Descended from the Isawa they were created for bureaucratic convenience. Their most distinguishing characteristic was being a matriarchal family and deep Amaterasu worship. Their heiress married Yoritomo and as such they merged with the Mantis as a Great Clan.

Falcon: Instated as a reward to a peasant that saved a Imperial they were spirit-hunters and woodsmen. They often served as a buffer between the Crab and the Unicorn and were often at odds with the Hare. They were annexed by the Crab.

Boar: Split from the Crab they supervised a mining region. Their clan disappeared mysteriously, although once in a while ronin claim descent from them.

Snake: Created as a reward for a Isawa Inquisitor they were destroyed by the Phoenix. Some ronin claim descent from them.

Oriole: Official smiths for the Emperor. In the old lore, despite being hereditary vassals, with a clearly defined role they were considered ronin far into the storyline.

Hare: Created as a reward for a samurai that distinguished himself against some sorceror. They had a vicious rivarly with the Falcon, they ran afoul of the Scoprion being disbanded for a few years before being cleared of any wrongdoing and reinstated.

Wasp: Descended from both the Lion and the Scorpion they were created by Doji Satsume to spite both clans. They had a unique view on Bushido and thanks to Satsume's patronage often worked as magistrates. They heavily favoured archery.

Tortoise: Officially librarians and historians, they also serve as firefighters and engineers in the capital. They also engage in maritime trade. Due to their trade enterprises and the fact that their histories are focused on the lower classes they are seen as oafish by the more polite clans.

Dragonfly: Descended from the Phoenix and the Dragon they serve as gatekeepers, and often diplomats for the Dragon. They have a serious blood feud with the Lion that would love to wipe them out from Rokugan.

I don't know if it is worthwhile to mention the Monkey, Ox, Bat, Tanuki, Firefly, Bee, Shark, Salamander, Raven or Peacock as some of them were jokes, examples or are going to be heavily changed if they even make an appearance in the new storyline.

I guess it is a nod to old fans, but is a missed opportunity to reinvent some of this stuff-- because while when I was younger, I really dug the minor clans because well... "special snowflake" syndrom, everyone wants to have their own clan of their own favorite animal...

and the fact that they were so often just lazily named after their animal when none of the original clans invented for the game were, regardless of what excuse was added later to try to justify such general failure in concept, just made them all that much worse. In the very least, it was a missed opportunity to use some more real life samurai clan names.

They really, really got out of control in the original game. It is all good to start off saying "Oh, there are only 100 of these guys. This is just an example of the kind of weird offshoots and special stories we have in the empire", the very moment one goes and gives them their own unique name and animal and symbol-- well, they naturally become important and prominent. There effectively become infinite numbers of them, just as there are infinite numbers of every family in a great clan. No matter how many people in a Great Clan family get killed, there will always be more. In fact, I think we have examples within the Great Clans too where we are told that 60% of the clan belongs to one family and that other family just started a generation ago with one guy... but the later family ends up getting printed and talked about and displayed just as often as the former.

But, Minor Clans? Even if the text flat out states that they are smaller than a vassal family, just on the basis of being a "minor clan" they demand their own special cards and own special school with their own special techniques and their own unique color scheme, and it needs to be displayed prominently whenever the "totality" of Rokugan is told.

And it is especially bad given that we are told that each Great Clan has only 3-5 family names within them, completely and totally. Someone comes up with 10 random minor clans and that accounts for a significant portion of the names one is ever even going to hear in the setting.

And then there is the issue of some of them having such very weak and lame concepts.

The Dragonfly shouldn't be called "Tonbo" because that is lame, furthermore they ought to simply be a Dragon Clan vassal family. And not "vassal family" like the old RPG defined them which went to show that they had no clue at all what a "vassal" was, but in "They work for the Dragon Clan, but are considered lower in station than regular Dragon Clan members". The Dragon effectively adopted them anyway, so what is this whole thing about "we want to have presence in court, but instead of going there ourselves we'll have this minor clan that is greatly outnumbered and doesn't even have the power to represent us do it for us"? That whole concept doesn't remotely work! Which nullifies the Dragonfly even having a point to existing.

There need not be a "Tortoise Clan", but rather there can just be a Kasuga family that reports directly to the Otomo.

The Fox Clan certainly need not remain its own thing once the Ki-rin returned to Rokugan. Isn't their families vow to their founder eternal? So what is up with not embracing and reintegrating with their cousins once they return to the empire? Again, the name "Kitsune" is dumb, but moreover-- they ought to just be a minor Unicorn family that is a bit more familiar with Rokugani culture because they never left the lands.

The Hare Clan was invented for the simply purpose of being the victims in an early RPG adventure where they didn't want any of the existing clans to stand in as the victims and wanted the whole thing to happen on "neutral ground" so that players from any clan could participate. Beyond that-- they never served any purpose.

And beyond that, most of their founding stories make no sense.

"Hey, you are a member of a Great Clan that did a heroic act? Congratulations! And it seems you also gained the attention of the emperor! Now, let's reward your heroism by stripping you and your vassals and all of your descendants of the rank and privilege and safety afforded to Great Clans, take land away from a Great Clan's border just to make them angry, and then remind everyone that any Great Clan is free to attack you and slaughter you all and take all your holdings and won't be remotely questioned or reprimanded for it! Have a good day!!"

It could not possibly make any less sense. And none of them should have survived even a single generation before being absorbed, willingly or not, into another clan.

The only ones that I could remotely see an exception being made for would be

1) The Badger, because they wanted to set up their castle and holdings in some remote part of the empire that no one wanted so... sure.
2) The Boar, but only if one removes all concept of them being part of the Crab clan initially. If they were a bunch of miners who disappeared into the mountains where no one else was interested in going for decades and reemerged to give a ton of mine to the Imperials, then... sure, they could be told they were now in charge of the region and to keep up the good work.
3) The Fox after the rest of their Great Clan left leaving only a small contingent that couldn't really be afforded the same standing after most of their clan left the lands, but only until the Unicorn returned-- at which point they should have just rejoined their clan.\
4) The Mantis, because... again.. they decided to set up shop in unclaimed lands back when there were unclaimed lands to set up shop in. Since any attempt to take their islands would be more costly than the islands were worth, they would be pretty safe.

The rest of them just... ought not to exist and it is a major mistake to start reintegrating these things back into the newly rejuvenated setting.

3 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

I guess it is a nod to old fans, but is a missed opportunity to reinvent some of this stuff-- because while when I was younger, I really dug the minor clans because well... "special snowflake" syndrom, everyone wants to have their own clan of their own favorite animal...

and the fact that they were so often just lazily named after their animal when none of the original clans invented for the game were, regardless of what excuse was added later to try to justify such general failure in concept, just made them all that much worse. In the very least, it was a missed opportunity to use some more real life samurai clan names.

They really, really got out of control in the original game. It is all good to start off saying "Oh, there are only 100 of these guys. This is just an example of the kind of weird offshoots and special stories we have in the empire", the very moment one goes and gives them their own unique name and animal and symbol-- well, they naturally become important and prominent. There effectively become infinite numbers of them, just as there are infinite numbers of every family in a great clan. No matter how many people in a Great Clan family get killed, there will always be more. In fact, I think we have examples within the Great Clans too where we are told that 60% of the clan belongs to one family and that other family just started a generation ago with one guy... but the later family ends up getting printed and talked about and displayed just as often as the former.

But, Minor Clans? Even if the text flat out states that they are smaller than a vassal family, just on the basis of being a "minor clan" they demand their own special cards and own special school with their own special techniques and their own unique color scheme, and it needs to be displayed prominently whenever the "totality" of Rokugan is told.

And it is especially bad given that we are told that each Great Clan has only 3-5 family names within them, completely and totally. Someone comes up with 10 random minor clans and that accounts for a significant portion of the names one is ever even going to hear in the setting.

And then there is the issue of some of them having such very weak and lame concepts.

The Dragonfly shouldn't be called "Tonbo" because that is lame, furthermore they ought to simply be a Dragon Clan vassal family. And not "vassal family" like the old RPG defined them which went to show that they had no clue at all what a "vassal" was, but in "They work for the Dragon Clan, but are considered lower in station than regular Dragon Clan members". The Dragon effectively adopted them anyway, so what is this whole thing about "we want to have presence in court, but instead of going there ourselves we'll have this minor clan that is greatly outnumbered and doesn't even have the power to represent us do it for us"? That whole concept doesn't remotely work! Which nullifies the Dragonfly even having a point to existing.

There need not be a "Tortoise Clan", but rather there can just be a Kasuga family that reports directly to the Otomo.

The Fox Clan certainly need not remain its own thing once the Ki-rin returned to Rokugan. Isn't their families vow to their founder eternal? So what is up with not embracing and reintegrating with their cousins once they return to the empire? Again, the name "Kitsune" is dumb, but moreover-- they ought to just be a minor Unicorn family that is a bit more familiar with Rokugani culture because they never left the lands.

The Hare Clan was invented for the simply purpose of being the victims in an early RPG adventure where they didn't want any of the existing clans to stand in as the victims and wanted the whole thing to happen on "neutral ground" so that players from any clan could participate. Beyond that-- they never served any purpose.

And beyond that, most of their founding stories make no sense.

"Hey, you are a member of a Great Clan that did a heroic act? Congratulations! And it seems you also gained the attention of the emperor! Now, let's reward your heroism by stripping you and your vassals and all of your descendants of the rank and privilege and safety afforded to Great Clans, take land away from a Great Clan's border just to make them angry, and then remind everyone that any Great Clan is free to attack you and slaughter you all and take all your holdings and won't be remotely questioned or reprimanded for it! Have a good day!!"

It could not possibly make any less sense. And none of them should have survived even a single generation before being absorbed, willingly or not, into another clan.

The only ones that I could remotely see an exception being made for would be

1) The Badger, because they wanted to set up their castle and holdings in some remote part of the empire that no one wanted so... sure.
2) The Boar, but only if one removes all concept of them being part of the Crab clan initially. If they were a bunch of miners who disappeared into the mountains where no one else was interested in going for decades and reemerged to give a ton of mine to the Imperials, then... sure, they could be told they were now in charge of the region and to keep up the good work.
3) The Fox after the rest of their Great Clan left leaving only a small contingent that couldn't really be afforded the same standing after most of their clan left the lands, but only until the Unicorn returned-- at which point they should have just rejoined their clan.\
4) The Mantis, because... again.. they decided to set up shop in unclaimed lands back when there were unclaimed lands to set up shop in. Since any attempt to take their islands would be more costly than the islands were worth, they would be pretty safe.

The rest of them just... ought not to exist and it is a major mistake to start reintegrating these things back into the newly rejuvenated setting.

Not all of the minor clans were formed because some hero was awesome. Mantis were formed because a would be clan champ got passed up and just went and started his own clan.

The Sparrow who picked their name because they wanted to live a simple life like a sparrow were formed as a result of banishment.

The Wasp was formed when a guy murdered a bunch of people in a castle. He then said the castle was his and the Emerald Champ at the time said it was cool.

Most of the original minor clans were formed the same way the great clans were formed. Some person of notable ability said "I'm a clan and all my friends are a clan now." The only big difference is mortals made minor clans while the kami made great clans.

I think slightly better reasoning should be used when dealing with the minor clans. Giving land and title to exceptional people is very realistic in a mostly feudal setting. The problem shows up when minor clans act outside of their very narrow scope. It makes sense that there would be smaller more specialized groups with in the empire. Also most of the original minor clans live in terrible places that nobody cares about. The Sparrow live in some barren fields, the Mantis live off on some islands away from everyone else, and the Wasp actually have somewhere people want but they only want that one spot and they happen to be very good at defending it.

Minor clans make a lot of sense within the setting. Or they should.... The problem is that some of them have no business existing. Good examples include the Fox, Tortoise, and Hare. So every clan, great or minor, has some reason for existing but a backstory isn't enough. You have to be useful to the emperor or why do you exist? All the great clans have a use and that is their main driving point. The Fox lost their reason for existing after the Unicorn showed back up. The Hare never really had a true purpose. The Tortoise sit in a weird place though. They feel like a strange twist on the scorpion mixed with the mantis. They make sense to exist but are superfluous to the narrative and take away from two different clans that could have done the exact same thing.

My list of clans that make sense existing is a bit different and longer but still I agree with it needing to be less than all of them.

1)Mantis- they both serve a important purpose to the emperor but also have a pretty good backstory.

2)Bat- With very little work this clan could easily be justified as the telephone service of the empire.

3) Centipede- Great backstory but lacks purpose. The new ones could easily be given purpose. Just focus way harder on the Lady Sun angle.

4)Boar

5)Sparrow- Descent backstory and with barely any changes could have a use.

6)Ox

Sad I can't think of a reason to let the Wasp exist....

8 hours ago, P'an Ku said:

I think slightly better reasoning should be used when dealing with the minor clans. Giving land and title to exceptional people is very realistic in a mostly feudal setting. The problem shows up when minor clans act outside of their very narrow scope. It makes sense that there would be smaller more specialized groups with in the empire. Also most of the original minor clans live in terrible places that nobody cares about. The Sparrow live in some barren fields, the Mantis live off on some islands away from everyone else, and the Wasp actually have somewhere people want but they only want that one spot and they happen to be very good at defending it.

Actually, that is another major problem with the minor clans. That they are used to fit in niche concepts.

But, if you have a small group who is supposed to oversee and run a region, even if it is a small region, it is going to be an all-consuming job for them. Every last member they have is going to have to fill the same general roles that Great Clans with thousands of members.

Think of it like a company-- if you have a small company in a field, then each person at that small company is likely to have several job titles and be in charge of doing a lot of different things for the company. But, if you have a large company, even if they have way more customers-- any given person at that company can have an extremely narrow and specialized job, because you have so many employees that you can give each one a specialized job.

So this idea that there is a need for minor clans just to have some wonky school with wonky techniques is just completely backwards. A minor clan that has to fulfill all the things a Great Clan has to for their region is going to be a bunch of generalists who wouldn't have any special traits or techniques that stood out or above those you could get in the Great Clans.

But the Great Clans have countless individuals who, because everyone else in their clan is doing all the tasks the Minor Clan guys are busy with, are going to be able to spend the time trying out and perfecting unusual and innovative techniques and strategies. And because they have all the time in the world to do it, they are going to be the ones to innovate all these new schools.

Regardless of "tradition", it is the Great Clans where all those wonky and unusual schools and narrow specialists would be found. They would be subschools or branches of the main school that would focus on the basics.

But, again, it is all because once something is given an actual name and its own little spirit animal, suddenly the designers are compelled to give them their own unique section in the book with their own special unique full school of techniques... even if the "clan" is made up of all of 10 people and started just yesterday.

Minor Clans just completely detract from the setting and add nothing to it. Every sentence dedicated to a minor clan existence would be better spent expanding and fleshing out the concepts of the Great Clans so that they would seem more varied and less pigeon-holed.

1 hour ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

But the Great Clans have countless individuals who, because everyone else in their clan is doing all the tasks the Minor Clan guys are busy with, are going to be able to spend the time trying out and perfecting unusual and innovative techniques and strategies. And because they have all the time in the world to do it, they are going to be the ones to innovate all these new schools.

Regardless of "tradition", it is the Great Clans where all those wonky and unusual schools and narrow specialists would be found. They would be subschools or branches of the main school that would focus on the basics.

But, again, it is all because once something is given an actual name and its own little spirit animal, suddenly the designers are compelled to give them their own unique section in the book with their own special unique full school of techniques... even if the "clan" is made up of all of 10 people and started just yesterday.

Part of the issue with this is that Rokugan is not a culture given to innovation. The whole society is built around the concept of we "refine" the techniques that we already know but true new techniques are rare in the great clans. Thus you get the "innovation" of the minor clans which as often as not is that they have rejected the "traditions" of their source family and forged their own path. Yes there is a little bit of the special snow flake syndrome, but the same can be said for the great clans with each of them being roped into a trope of this is what they are the bestest at and no one compares to them on that front.

As to your complaint that the minor clans serve no purpose as others have pointed out they are there to serve as buffers between the great clans and they survive rather than being absorbed because the Emperor made a decree to protect them from the great clans.

Were there too many minor clans in O5R at the end, maybe. But many of the later minor clans were created as tribute to prominent contributors to the furthering of the game or were tied to specific story prizes and events.

Whereas I went the route in my own campaign of having more Minor Clans . . . not because Special Snowflakes, but because I think it's good for political storytelling when there are lots of smaller players on the board, rather than just seven giant players who are theoretically mostly matched in power all the time. From a game design standpoint the latter is better, but when it comes to narrative, it's very useful to have the political, economic, or military support of various Minor Clans be a resource for the bigger powers to fight over. I had a whole plotline over there being members of the Snake Clan who were abroad in the Empire when their clan got destroyed, who kept using the Chuda name even when everybody else called them ronin, and then generations later the Scorpion found one of those Chuda ronin who showed exceptional talent and trained him up as a duelist so that when Imperial Winter Court rolled around they could unleash him on the Phoenix to duel his way up to the point that the Emperor would reinstate the Snake Clan and the Phoenix would be publicly humiliated. You could theoretically do that with a Phoenix vassal family, but it wouldn't work the same, or as well, because those people fall under Phoenix authority, as opposed to being a neighboring polity who got obliterated by outsiders.

But agreed on the point that special niche duties for the Minor Clans don't actually make a lot of sense. I kept the schools because I liked having different flavors of technique to throw around, but the purpose of any given Minor Clan wasn't "hunt Bloodspeakers" or "be our telephone service;" it was "administer these lands." Same as the duty of the Phoenix isn't "be religious" or the Crane isn't "be cultured" so much as "adminster these lands, and you happen to have a reputation for being very religious/cultured/etc."

3 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Whereas I went the route in my own campaign of having more Minor Clans . . . not because Special Snowflakes, but because I think it's good for political storytelling when there are lots of smaller players on the board, rather than just seven giant players who are theoretically mostly matched in power all the time. From a game design standpoint the latter is better, but when it comes to narrative, it's very useful to have the political, economic, or military support of various Minor Clans be a resource for the bigger powers to fight over. I had a whole plotline over there being members of the Snake Clan who were abroad in the Empire when their clan got destroyed, who kept using the Chuda name even when everybody else called them ronin, and then generations later the Scorpion found one of those Chuda ronin who showed exceptional talent and trained him up as a duelist so that when Imperial Winter Court rolled around they could unleash him on the Phoenix to duel his way up to the point that the Emperor would reinstate the Snake Clan and the Phoenix would be publicly humiliated. You could theoretically do that with a Phoenix vassal family, but it wouldn't work the same, or as well, because those people fall under Phoenix authority, as opposed to being a neighboring polity who got obliterated by outsiders.

But agreed on the point that special niche duties for the Minor Clans don't actually make a lot of sense. I kept the schools because I liked having different flavors of technique to throw around, but the purpose of any given Minor Clan wasn't "hunt Bloodspeakers" or "be our telephone service;" it was "administer these lands." Same as the duty of the Phoenix isn't "be religious" or the Crane isn't "be cultured" so much as "adminster these lands, and you happen to have a reputation for being very religious/cultured/etc."

To be fair to the Great Clans, that might have made more sense when the Clans were still young and the Kami were still around to actively shape their character around their own personalities and their duty to Hantei. Akodo is Hantei's chief general? Naturally, the Lion would become culturally inclined towards warfare and martial pursuits as Akodo shapes them to fight Hantei's wars. Bayushi is the spymaster, whose duty is keep the Imperial line safe from internal threats? The Scorpion would tend towards deceitfulness, subtelty and subterfuge, to better uncover plots, set the other Clans against each other, and assassinate people when necessary.

As the Clans grow, and the Empire and the Imperial Bureaucracy becomes established, these roles seize being relevant, but the cultural footprint still remains.

14 hours ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

Actually, that is another major problem with the minor clans. That they are used to fit in niche concepts.

But, if you have a small group who is supposed to oversee and run a region, even if it is a small region, it is going to be an all-consuming job for them. Every last member they have is going to have to fill the same general roles that Great Clans with thousands of members.

Think of it like a company-- if you have a small company in a field, then each person at that small company is likely to have several job titles and be in charge of doing a lot of different things for the company. But, if you have a large company, even if they have way more customers-- any given person at that company can have an extremely narrow and specialized job, because you have so many employees that you can give each one a specialized job.

So this idea that there is a need for minor clans just to have some wonky school with wonky techniques is just completely backwards. A minor clan that has to fulfill all the things a Great Clan has to for their region is going to be a bunch of generalists who wouldn't have any special traits or techniques that stood out or above those you could get in the Great Clans.

But the Great Clans have countless individuals who, because everyone else in their clan is doing all the tasks the Minor Clan guys are busy with, are going to be able to spend the time trying out and perfecting unusual and innovative techniques and strategies. And because they have all the time in the world to do it, they are going to be the ones to innovate all these new schools.

Regardless of "tradition", it is the Great Clans where all those wonky and unusual schools and narrow specialists would be found. They would be subschools or branches of the main school that would focus on the basics.

But, again, it is all because once something is given an actual name and its own little spirit animal, suddenly the designers are compelled to give them their own unique section in the book with their own special unique full school of techniques... even if the "clan" is made up of all of 10 people and started just yesterday.

Minor Clans just completely detract from the setting and add nothing to it. Every sentence dedicated to a minor clan existence would be better spent expanding and fleshing out the concepts of the Great Clans so that they would seem more varied and less pigeon-holed.

My experience has shown me the smaller a group the more specialized the group as a whole usually is. Also if you don't have advanced forms of communication than there is a big difference between a small and large region. Communication speed and logistics become a lot harder for Great clans.

The most important thing to remember though is that these are the noble class. The average samurai doesn't really have to care about work. They train and meditate. The idea that minor clan samurai wouldn't have time to innovate is kinda silly. They get to innovate because they don't get to inherit styles from thousands of different masters like great clan samurai do.

I agree that the great clans need a little more variation but that has more to do with better thought out lore that isn't controlled by players that contradict each other with every story prize.

To finish my thoughts up I would like to point out that several of the minor clans make sense in the setting. They add to the setting and allow for some extra realism. I understand you don't like minor clans but they help explain somethings in setting. Why don't the Phoenix and Dragon not just live in perpetual war? The Phoenix would be in their right to try and wipe out the Dragon. Well there is a neutral buffer state between them that keeps that from happening.

9 hours ago, P'an Ku said:

My experience has shown me the smaller a group the more specialized the group as a whole usually is. Also if you don't have advanced forms of communication than there is a big difference between a small and large region. Communication speed and logistics become a lot harder for Great clans.

The most important thing to remember though is that these are the noble class. The average samurai doesn't really have to care about work. They train and meditate. The idea that minor clan samurai wouldn't have time to innovate is kinda silly. They get to innovate because they don't get to inherit styles from thousands of different masters like great clan samurai do.

I agree that the great clans need a little more variation but that has more to do with better thought out lore that isn't controlled by players that contradict each other with every story prize.

To finish my thoughts up I would like to point out that several of the minor clans make sense in the setting. They add to the setting and allow for some extra realism. I understand you don't like minor clans but they help explain somethings in setting. Why don't the Phoenix and Dragon not just live in perpetual war? The Phoenix would be in their right to try and wipe out the Dragon. Well there is a neutral buffer state between them that keeps that from happening.

No, Samurai do not either just laze about or just train. At least quite a few do not.

Their job is to regulate and manage the lands they have been assigned. That means that it is their jobs to go out and see to it that the peasants are working, that any threats to that work are dealt with, that taxes (in this case crops and raw goods) are collected and sent off to the proper authorities.

The Samurai function both as the government officials, the region's army, the police force and the overseers. All of that falls upon their shoulders, though the richer samurai might be able to delegate these jobs out to the people below them. Minor Clans that only number a couple hundred though-- they aren't going to be able to do that. They have to do all these jobs with a smaller pool of human resources.

The Phoenix's inability to go full on war and try to wipe out the Dragon is already readily explained by the fact that the Dragon clan lives in the mountains and any attempt to attack them means moving through difficult, unknown terrain and fighting an enemy that is going to generally have the higher ground in all conflicts. It is a losing prospect.

What are you even proposing by your suggestion here that the Phoenix clan would be more than willing to go all-out in a costly assault that they aren't even likely to succeed at... but if there is a minor clan in the way, then immediately everything just gets called off?

Is your special snowflake syndrom for the Minor Clans got to so turned around that you think if you give a samurai their own special spirit animal outside of the main set, then any individual can just wipe out a whole legion of Great Clan samurai with a wave of their hand?

Surely that can't be it. So then, if the Phoenix clan would be willing to go into an all-out suicidal assault against the Dragon Clan, then what exactly would some random minor clan being in the way be beyond barely a speedbump?

If the clans in the empire are free to assault each other with full force of arms and annex each other's land at any time, then every single last minor clan that exists on the border of Great Clans would be gobbled up in no time. Afterall, surely gaining those lands would be plenty worth what they would lose against the pitiful resistance that the minor clan would mount in return. At least it would be if we are to believe that ever going to battle with any other Great Clan would be worth what would be gained through the exercise.

You can either send your 10,000 troops against another Great Clan's 10,000 troops over 100 acres of land... or you can send them against a Minor Clans 100 troops over 100 acres of land. If the former is at all worth the cost of that battle, the later would most definitely be worth the cost.

And so every last minor clan would be wiped out or adopted into a Great Clan whether they like it or not and their lands annexed. None of them that live on the border of a Great Clan should last even a generation.

The only ones that could exist for any length of time would be those that reside in regions that no one else would want to live in or, otherwise, committing an army to attack and govern the area wouldn't be worth the effort. Often places so poor in resources that it just wouldn't be worth assigning people from your own clan there, in which case the minor clan would be so poor that they would barely pass as samurai at all.

But that is never going to be the case when it comes to a clan's own border security. And if a minor clan's existence even minorly disrupts the military plans of a Great Clan, their existence would immediately be brought to an end.

22 minutes ago, TheHobgoblyn said:

What are you even proposing by your suggestion here that the Phoenix clan would be more than willing to go all-out in a costly assault that they aren't even likely to succeed at... but if there is a minor clan in the way, then immediately everything just gets called off?

Is your special snowflake syndrom for the Minor Clans got to so turned around that you think if you give a samurai their own special spirit animal outside of the main set, then any individual can just wipe out a whole legion of Great Clan samurai with a wave of their hand?

Surely that can't be it. So then, if the Phoenix clan would be willing to go into an all-out suicidal assault against the Dragon Clan, then what exactly would some random minor clan being in the way be beyond barely a speedbump?

If the clans in the empire are free to assault each other with full force of arms and annex each other's land at any time, then every single last minor clan that exists on the border of Great Clans would be gobbled up in no time. Afterall, surely gaining those lands would be plenty worth what they would lose against the pitiful resistance that the minor clan would mount in return. At least it would be if we are to believe that ever going to battle with any other Great Clan would be worth what would be gained through the exercise.

You can either send your 10,000 troops against another Great Clan's 10,000 troops over 100 acres of land... or you can send them against a Minor Clans 100 troops over 100 acres of land. If the former is at all worth the cost of that battle, the later would most definitely be worth the cost.

And so every last minor clan would be wiped out or adopted into a Great Clan whether they like it or not and their lands annexed. None of them that live on the border of a Great Clan should last even a generation.

And again you are ignoring the existence of the Imperial Decree that dates back to the origin of the Fox Clan that forbids the Great Clans from warring on the Minor Clans without Imperial Consent. In your scenario the first time a great clan decides to go aggro against one of the minors they invite the Imperial Legions and the armies of all the other clans to come visit and wipe them out. And thus the minor clans act as a buffer as the great clans must be careful to avoid their territories less they be seen as violating the Decree.