Let me first preface this by saying I really want to love this game, and I primarily wondering if I am the only person experience this sort of issue.

I generally like the models, I think the army building is well done, and the core of the rules I quite like.

However, between the digital only rulebook requiring an electronic device to double check a disputed rule, and (until I found the compilation post on this forum) FAQs to rules issues that seemed like fairly blatant oversights (stacking of most special rules not enumerated for instance) existing solely as email responses people post in social media I find myself not really wanting to go my FLGS for a game of Legion. Much of this is likely my frustration at myself for not utilizing the rules properly (such as my misinterpretation of how Battle Meditation interacts with Orders, or that while the AT-RTs provide cover, they don't block LoS) and therefore playing "sub-optimally."

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a digital only free rulebook from the sense of having more money to spend on models, and (in theory) FAQs can be released as an update to the actual rulebook rather than a second document, but the reality does not seem to quite live up to that promise, particularly as it is only through the efforts of other players that the FAQ can be found in a single location.

In all honestly, I probably just need to spend a bit more time reading the rules and the assorted emails, and take a better electronic device with me than my phone.

I apologize for venting, I just felt like I needed to voice my concerns into the aether.

You're not wrong. Of all the positives that you listed, you missed one: the rapid pace that FFG is getting the product released so that there is some meat/content to choose from in a list/squad.

The problem with that is that whom ever is in charge of the rules updates is/are (at this point) not keeping up with releases.

FFG really should be releasing an "update" each day of release of new content with an update of the interactions between just released content and previous released content AS WELL AS errata of things that were missed in game testing that the player base has found and brought to light. Basically if you are going the "live document" route as a design decision... then do it, FFG.

I agree, the steady pace of new models had been nice, and feels about right for a new game.

One thing in a similar vein that caught me off guard in that respect was the announcement of an entirely new slot in the force org chart for named characters such as Boba Fett. I doubt the force org in the rules will be updated in time for his release, and for a ruleset that I have heard has been in development for years, and FFG supposedly has the next 2 years of releases planned, why aren't "Operatives" on the force org chart? Specials Forces have been on there since the beginning, and those are being released about the same time as the first Operative...

Now, maybe the source I heard about FFG's preparedness for Legion releases was mistaken, which would make a lot more sense, but regardless, I am hopeful that Operative is added in an update prior to Boba Fett's release.

I am tired of painting and I have 6 squads and only 1 of them 100%, 3 just need basing 2 are like 85% one is primed.

I still have, Vader, Luke, Veers, 1 set of stormtroopers, 4 sets of rebel troopers, 3 sets of bikes, t-47, 3 at-rt, at-st and Leia and friends will be here on Monday....

I seriously contimplated today just giving them all a spray paint of a single color and calling it good.

To your point, It would be nice if we could get a 2.0 release of the game book, seems like it is way past due at this point.

The rule books is way too long. It isn't that the rules of the game are necessarily bloated but the rule book is.

FFG has a certain design philosophy when it comes to games, and part of it is the physical aspect (they never use a tape measure, never use a normal D6, always have way more tokens that is practical, etc etc.) and part of it is the mechanics. They LOVE having combos, stacking different mechanics, having similar mechanics that operate in different timing windows so you can do different stuff.

X Wing went from "roll red dice, roll green dice, apply damage" into a sixteen step attack process that involved a bunch of different steps, and different upgrades that would interact with each step and with each other and create different effects... it was a total mess.

You have to know what you're getting into when you start a FFG game. It's never just about playing the game, like a "normal" wargame, where your models are doing the heavy lifting. It's about memorising all the ways the different rules interact and where all the timing windows are. Just look at the shitfight that is the cover/LOS issue. They've pretty much got it nailed down now over in the rules forum, but the end result is not one but TWO flowcharts with like, sixteen steps between them. Just to work out if my wardollies can see your wardollies and if they should count as being in cover.

FFG loves to overcomplicate stuff.

My advice would be to just not sweat it. 95% of the time cover and LOS (as an example) can be sorted out without even referring to the rules. "Can my dudes see your dudes?" "Yeah, but I think they're in cover". And you're done. Play with a casual "don't stress, it's just toy soldiers" attitude and it gets a lot easier.

Don’t try to collect and paint both armies. Instead sell one off and pick up a side game.

I definitely feel you. While I've really been enjoying painting everything up, I'm not terribly inspired to play as much. At least not as much yet... I feel like Im more in the army building phase / mindset of "get what comes out, play test it out, wait to get the next thing to see how many to buy of the old one, repeat". Which is perfectly fine, the game is super new. Idk, I feel like I need to have all the unit types in my hands to see how many I should get of each before buying extras of stuff that might not see play after new things come out.

But since we're venting here, and I appreciate your honesty @Caimheul1313, I wish some things would be different:

Like @Sephlar said, it would be nice if there was more of a constant news flow to the game:

With the clarified rules that really do seem like an oversight that should have been noticed in play testing. I mean it was immediately brought up by the community after the game's release. I got my core set right after launch day and had barely read the LTP before people started asking about those rules. Two months in now and nothing... It hasn't affected the games I've played because we've been playing rules as intended without even bringing it up but if someone new to the online community asks the LoS/Cover question, it has people in arms against each other.

My best guess is that since Boba being the first Operative announced and not included in the rules as a unit type, I bet they're waiting to announce something else before updating the RRG to include both. Probably turrets since Priority supplies deployment card mentions a "stationary" unit. But if not something else, the rules still dont account for the "operative", which will have to be included in the RRG. Again, why didnt they just do this in the first place?

Which leads to my second point of there needing to be more announcements of whats coming. I just feel like FFG is hypebeast 101 by keeping us in the dark on every single thing, saying things are coming (no clue what) and then BIG SURPRISE! look whats coming!...... in like 4-5 months. I get not spilling the beans and saying what each one will be, but at least tell us what kinds of units they are so we can anticipate. Or just include the "new" types in the brand new game?

Adding in these new unit types at the beginning of a brand new game just feels like cheap hype marketing and really bad PR. Mainly because it's already starting to make the "learn to play" book a little irrelevant. Sure it might not affect the rules too much, but if you're a newbie who picks up a core set and then sees Boba on the shelf next to it and buys him, you pick up the learn to play and...wait whats an operative?..it says Boba is an operative but theres nothing here about operatives. Hopefully the units not mentioned in the LTP come with rules, or they become a lot better at updating the RRG. I just think its still annoying to be having to go online for rules updates already.

*End rant/ Sorry for the super long post* In the end, none of these are a big deal, just my main "complaints". Always nice to vent. I love the game too and am having a blast with everything they could just use a little help with things haha

One of the benefits of an army book/codex system is that you have access to all the unit profiles for a given faction right from the start. Makes it a bit easier to plan purchases that way.

Is printing the RRG not an option?

3 hours ago, TylerTT said:

Don’t try to collect and paint both armies. Instead sell one off and pick up a side game.

Or do collect both, and accept that you may not have everything painted at once.

Very few wargamers have all of their collection painted.

5 hours ago, Irokenics said:

Is printing the RRG not an option?

Printing a digital rulebook is likely to be (in the long run) a more expensive prospect than purchasing new editions every 3-5 years. Especially since the pages seem to have a "textured" background and aren't just blank white paper. There isn't an "easy print" version of the document, so either you go through a fair amount of the ink in the color cartridges, you pay a print shop like Staples or Kinkos, or those with the relevant skills spend time modifying the document. Now, if you're printing this decently hefty document (50 pages) it's a good idea to get it bound in some way. Let say 3 ring binder with the pages in plastic sleeves for ease of replacement. So far so good.

Then, FFG releases the FAQ update to the rules at some unknown time in the future, which takes the form of re-wording and clarifying rules in the rulebook, rather than an additional document. If you're lucky, it's a few months from now, otherwise it's the day after you get the last page in the sleeve. Regardless, if you printed double sided, then at a minimum each rule change requires reprinting 2 pages of the book, or 1 physical page. At worst, a change to a rule in the beginning of the book is wordy enough that it requires the entire book to be reprinted and resleeved. Either this costs more money to a print shop, or time and money, none of which is going back into the hobby.

I’ve saved all the documents in iBooks and the search function is pretty good, so most rules issues are a few seconds from resolution.

20 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Printing a digital rulebook is likely to be (in the long run) a more expensive prospect than purchasing new editions every 3-5 years. Especially since the pages seem to have a "textured" background and aren't just blank white paper. There isn't an "easy print" version of the document, so either you go through a fair amount of the ink in the color cartridges, you pay a print shop like Staples or Kinkos, or those with the relevant skills spend time modifying the document. Now, if you're printing this decently hefty document (50 pages) it's a good idea to get it bound in some way. Let say 3 ring binder with the pages in plastic sleeves for ease of replacement. So far so good.

Then, FFG releases the FAQ update to the rules at some unknown time in the future, which takes the form of re-wording and clarifying rules in the rulebook, rather than an additional document. If you're lucky, it's a few months from now, otherwise it's the day after you get the last page in the sleeve. Regardless, if you printed double sided, then at a minimum each rule change requires reprinting 2 pages of the book, or 1 physical page. At worst, a change to a rule in the beginning of the book is wordy enough that it requires the entire book to be reprinted and resleeved. Either this costs more money to a print shop, or time and money, none of which is going back into the hobby.

A possible way to save on this that we used in college: in print option pick grayscale and chose the 'fast print' or 'first draft' option. Prints it with about a quarter to a third of the ink used, and grayscale saves using the color cartridges.

On topic, I second that accepting everything won't be painted is a good strategy. I finally found a white primer, Rust-Oleum white satin, that gave the Stormtroopers most of the look I want. Saved my sanity just having to do black detail work.

10 hours ago, Chucknuckle said:

One of the benefits of an army book/codex system is that you have access to all the unit profiles for a given faction right from the start. Makes it a bit easier to plan purchases that way.

Honestly, a codex would be nice in this game. Have everything available to look at right away (or at least for the next year) to figure out how you want to build your army, even if certain units aren't available to buy yet, and eliminates the need for having a ton of upgrade cards which saves space on the table. I get that having upgrade cards in different expansions gives more incentive to buy more but I wouldn't mind paying for a book that gets rid of the need for those and makes life a bit simpler.

It would also allow them to add in some campaigns and other narrative play. I know they have their tournament "operations" stuff but they aren't anything unique since they're just suggested combinations of the battle cards. Id like to see missions like "assault the rebel/imperial base" or "capture the officer" and whatnot. Obviously you can house rules that stuff, and if you wanted that experience then I guess there is imperial assault, and heck those might be future objectives expansions, but it would have been nice to see more narrative stuff.

The cards are a critical part of the game’s interface. Letting me see an opponents list from across the table and the ability for cards to track wether or not an option is exaughted.

I would rather have a steady stream of new content rather than a codex like burst of stuff.

i AM NOT GETTING TIRED AT ALL OF THIS GAME. THERE ARE SO MANY GREAT INTERACTIONS WITH THE BATTLE CARDS. EACH GAME FEELS ENTIRLY DIFFERENT. TRY PICKING 3 DIFFERENT COMBOS THAT YOU HAVE NOT DONE YET.

AND JUST PRINT THE **** RULEBOOK OUT NO MORE THAN 3 BUCKS BLACK AND WHITE.

SO MUCH WHINING HERE

I hate printed fleet lists from codices so much.

and needing to buy every codex so I know everyone’s rules.

urgh.

@LHyoda I'm not sure how some printers would handle that every page of the RRG has a grey background with simulated smudges and dirt marks. Previously on other documents I've had segments of text illegible because a low setting print job translated a minor embellishment behind the text being printed as a black line through text on every page. A decent number of rules are also embedded in pictures, and written in white text, which may be much harder to read from a quick print. A printer friendly version of the rules would be appreciated, without all of the embellishments and flourishes and just simple text with a few diagrams.

Somewhere in this forum some posted the pdf with the back ground stripped out. But I am waiting for the next major revision first before I print anything, and the. I have it on my phone just in case

The rules and rule interactions have a steep learning curve (not the steepest imaginable, but they do take time and experience before they "click"). But I've found that with a dozen or so full games under my belt that I find myself checking the rule book about once per game--not so bad. And I've maybe discovered a rule I've unknowingly played wrong one or two times total since moving to 800 point games.

The good news is that the learning curve is just at the beginning--once you've invested that time, it only gets easier from there.

How many different opponents have you faced? Some people don't have the option, but if you can play against as many different people as possible you will have a natural exchange of experience that will benefit everyone. You will run into new questions and have experience answering questions you already know the answer to. You will have questions that your opponent can easily answer, preventing you from having to look up rules.And on the occasion that neither of you know the answer and you have to research it, the rule will stick with both of you that much more effectively.

Steak for every meal will kill you.

I've been feeling the same way. Every game of Legion feels like a three-hour rules argument. I'm more and more drawn back to X-Wing, where either everyone knows the rules, or the people who don't will listen to those who do.

On 6/1/2018 at 12:38 PM, TylerTT said:

The cards are a critical part of the game’s interface. Letting me see an opponents list from across the table and the ability for cards to track wether or not an option is exaughted.

I would rather have a steady stream of new content rather than a codex like burst of stuff.

Not having a codex to grift extra money from players is just the best.

Also, it makes sense that they hid the operative type. On seeing that everyone would have known Boba Fett was coming for the Empire.

9 hours ago, Derrault said:

Not having a codex to grift extra money from players is just the best.

Also, it makes sense that they hid the operative type. On seeing that everyone would have known Boba Fett was coming for the Empire.

I could understand hiding it if it was farther down the road after a bunch of expansions where it felt like a new unit type would be cool to have...

But I dont see the point in waiting only two months after launch for the "surprise" of Boba and a new unit type when everyone figured he was coming to the game as either a high costed special forces or a commander. Turns out he's a unit thats a bit of both.

Which is cool, it's not a big deal- I just think if they had everything planned out in advance like they say, they should have just included those in the rules from the get go. Saying what types of units will be available isnt giving that much away. It gives you an idea of whats coming and lets you plan out your list building accordingly.