Am I the only one disappointed at the fact that the rebs and imps, with a few exceptions, are essentially mirror armies? Sure, the vehicles are different (with, I think, the Imps getting the much better end of the deal on this), but the commanders are basically the same (again, with the Imps having a bit more raw damage potential), each of the trooper units are basically the same (just with a difference on offensive defensive focus, but they are basically analogues of each other). I was really hoping that the rebel commandos and scout troopers were where the troop units would diverge, with the rebels focusing on guerrilla and pin-point tactics and the imperials focusing on trying to generate synergy between the parts of their war machine (and the rebels trying to kill the synergy generators).

There is some variation (AT-ST and bikes vs T-47 and AT-RT's), I was just really, really hoping for a more real, concrete difference in the armies. Maybe when/if we get other armies, like Seps and GAR?

With limited selections and metas your bound to play mirror games.

But that will change as we go along with new units as their released. Armada was the same way, but Legion is getting releases much faster the Armada, so I'm not worried.

Luke VS vader: A guy jumping left and right like a homing missile VS a guy that's the hammer AND the anvil.
Leia VS veers... Yeah, sort of agree there, but the command cards are really different there.
Han VS ? : A very annoying guy that jumps in the thick of the fight, rather tough and hitting hard VS ?
? VS Boba : ? VS a very fast mayhem machine?
Stormtroopers VS rebel troopers : Squads that are tough and rely on heavy weapons to spread suppression VS Squads that are good at getting somewhere and hunkering there.
Fleet troopers VS Snowtroopers: Squad that pushes like mad and holds areas VS squads that are implacably going towards your lines whatever you throw at them.
AT-RT VS Speederbikes: Versatile (snipers of doomsday rushers or dice buckets throwers) VS homing missiles
Airspeeder VS AT-ST: Poop VS versatile and tough unit to spread the hate on the whole battlefield.

I don't really see what you are talking about honestly.

42 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

Luke VS vader: A guy jumping left and right like a homing missile VS a guy that's the hammer AND the anvil.
Leia VS veers... Yeah, sort of agree there, but the command cards are really different there.
Han VS ? : A very annoying guy that jumps in the thick of the fight, rather tough and hitting hard VS ?
? VS Boba : ? VS a very fast mayhem machine?
Stormtroopers VS rebel troopers : Squads that are tough and rely on heavy weapons to spread suppression VS Squads that are good at getting somewhere and hunkering there.
Fleet troopers VS Snowtroopers: Squad that pushes like mad and holds areas VS squads that are implacably going towards your lines whatever you throw at them.
AT-RT VS Speederbikes: Versatile (snipers of doomsday rushers or dice buckets throwers) VS homing missiles
Airspeeder VS AT-ST: Poop VS versatile and tough unit to spread the hate on the whole battlefield.

I don't really see what you are talking about honestly.

You don't? All Trooper units are pretty much the exact same unit with some very minor variations.

Minor variations? These "minor" variations should totally alter the way you see these units.

While the rebel troopers have marginally better shooting, their main point of interest is the fact they are cheap and survivable, thus are good at running to an objective and hunker down there. At the same time, Stormtroopers are basically fire support units, mainly aiming at causing suppression all around because of increased range and decent ability to hit stuff with white+surge to split fire.

Fleet troopers and snow troopers have nothing in common.

Rebel commandos against scout troopers: We don't know anything about the upgrades, but even then still: The scouts are all about rushing forwards, while the ccommandos are already more about harassing from light cover.

Sure, if you jsut look at them stats for stats in a 1v1 situation, they seem very similar. However, their efficient use is very different.

Airspeeder, I feel is much maligned I've used it three times

11 minutes ago, Jake the Hutt said:

You don't? All Trooper units are pretty much the exact same unit with some very minor variations.

What do you expect they are all the same at the base it's only the equipment that tells them apart but if you ask me there is enough variety

Stormtrooper range 3 (3 on 8 hit) with red defence(3 in 6 block) and re-rolls 3 dice on an aim

Snowtrooper range 3 (3 on 8 hit) with red defence(3 in 6 block) with the ability to shoot after a move

Rebel trooper range 3 (4 on 8 hit) with with white defence ( 2 in 6 block, although not with my dice) with a reusable dodge

Fleet Trooper range 2 (3 on 8 double hits) with white defence(2 in 6 block) free aim with a standby

So far I'm not seeing much similarity in the troopers. I haven't even covered heavy weapons.

3 hours ago, Deuzerre said:

Minor variations? These "minor" variations should totally alter the way you see these units.

While the rebel troopers have marginally better shooting, their main point of interest is the fact they are cheap and survivable, thus are good at running to an objective and hunker down there. At the same time, Stormtroopers are basically fire support units, mainly aiming at causing suppression all around because of increased range and decent ability to hit stuff with white+surge to split fire.

You see rebel troopers as survivable? Yeah, they get to keep their dodge token, and that almost makes up for their white die defense vs stormies, and stormies can get more efficient impact, but basically they are both leg troopers with the option for an exhausting "anti-vehicle" weapon and another weapons that doesn't exhaust. They both get the same set of upgrades other than that. Rebel troopers hit better, stormies defend better. That's not variety, that's mirroring (because a mirror reverses, ya see).

Snowtroopers steadily advance slowly while still firing at normal range while fleet troopers move faster but have to get closer to fire. Same real effect in play, just accomplished in different ways.

Commandos and scouts are just the same unit, down to the special teams, from everything I've seen.

Leia and Veers have cosmetic differences, really. A few dice here and there, one big attack vs three smaller attacks, commands for troopers vs for vehicles, but those are cosmetic, not substantial differences.

Han and Boba will both be character hunters, going after commanders or trying to hit particular trouble units, just doing it in somewhat different ways. Truth is they seem like they will be the two trooper units with the largest differentiation, and I hope I'm not wrong about that.

The vehicles are the only place with real differences (and none of it in favor of the rebels, imo). The ST and 47 are about as different as it gets, and the RT's vs Bikes is the same on a smaller scale, and reversed.

I'm hoping for things unique to each side. I want to see the Ghost crew as a single unit, and a group of inquisitors as a squad or single elite characters. I was hoping, as I said above, the commandos and scouts would really diverge, but alas, they will not be it seems. Give me real, concrete differences in form and function, not just form.

I already gave them.
You don't use fleet troopers like you use snowtroopers, period. Sure, in theory, they are both about the same, but in practice they work totally differently. Same function doesn't mean same way to apply them.

It's like saying a formula one is the same as a dragster: Both are meant to race.

Snowtroopers fear suppression less because they can actually still move and shoot.
Fleet troopers are more vulnerable to suppression because often they may end up stuck just out of range 2 and become useless because they only get one action.

See? Massive differences just on a simple aspect.

It'll be the same for scouts VS commandos: They may have the same "abilities" but their respective weapons make them totally different on the field.

It’s early for the game still. The game will get more nuanced as more stuff comes out.

@Admiral Theia- well, I'd say if Imperials and Rebels are mirrors, it is in fact in form, not in function. Note: I won't talk about Scouts, Commandos, Boba or Han, as there are a few mysteries there. I'll just mention that Fett and Solo on paper look totally different.

I do believe that in your comparison you miss one important aspect - the army is not just sum of its parts. Though differences between units may be small, they overall lead to significantly different playstyles for Imps and Rebels.

Leia and Veers may seem like a each other's rip-offs, but just considering their 2- and 3-pip command cards shows the enormous difference between the two. Whilst Leia cares not for any vehicle or any specific type of infantry (as long as they're troopers), Veers is much more specific, favoring vehicles and exhaustible cards. Note that the good general has the only direct support to vehicles in the game! Add in his less-effective and higher range gun, and it turns out that Veers is much more static commander that hangs further back compared to Leia, who is often tempted to get into fray with her close-range and awesome blaster. She also gets (or gives) additional mobility thanks to her 2-pip card. Actually, apart from both having Inspire and long range attack in form of 1-pip card, there is not much that's similar about them.

Take Luke and Vader next - Luke's versatility and high mobility versus Vader's.. well, relentlessness They have a number of similar rules, similar dicepools to boot, but they act nothing alike. Good luck using Vader as a flanker! At the same time, no-one holds a line as good as the Dark Lord (well, maybe ATST :P).

So is the similarity only superficial between Fleets and Snowies. Both are better at objectives than core set infantry, but in a drastiacally different way! Snowies are better at taking objectives, whilst Fleets are meant to hold them. Add in the diffrences between Stormies and classic Rebels, and you've got yourself a really diverse cast of specializations, upgrades versions etc.

And, as you pointed yourself, we'd better not bring vehicles into this

Is it possible to build an Imperial army that works as a Rebel army? Well, if Snowies with flamer are substitutes to Z6 squads, and Stormies with DLT or HH are LaseRT's and we choose to ignore the glaring differences between Leia and Veers... well then, maybe yes. Still, not even close.

5 hours ago, syrath said:

What do you expect they are all the same at the base it's only the equipment that tells them apart but if you ask me there is enough variety

Thats exactly what I meant, although I disagree that there's enough variety. What we have for now is fine while the game is establishing its basic structure, but eventually new Trooper units will need to be more than just "basic unit, but with slightly different attack dice and an ability which allows them to take a token".

Well, the nature of combat is that there tends to be only a small number of ways to successfully complete any given task. Infantry units the world over tend to be fairly similar. Same for things like tanks and planes. They all look mostly the same, they all do mostly the same job. Star Wars will have more diversity due to the asymmetrical nature of the galactic civil war, but you need to wait for more waves to be released before the game reaches maturity.

Keywords make a big difference in differentiating the troopers.

Stormtroopers have Precise and red dice which makes them better at offensive rushing or Aim+Attack activations

Rebels have Nimble and white dice, if you try to just do Aim+Attack activations they will get cut down real quick. Rebels want to Dodge and find cover

Snowtroopers have Steady which makes them the only trooper so far that can do a move action from out behind LoS cover, attack and then move back before getting shot at

Fleet Troopers throw a ton of dice but at shorter range and get a free aim when doing a standby action. This makes them ideal for close quarters, heavy LoS terrain

How much terrain do you play with? I've learned as my terrain collection has grown (never played 40k style wargame before Legion) that the game really needs to be played with at least 1/4 to 1/2 of the battlefield full of both light and heavy cover in addition to ample LoS blocking pieces. If you don't have that it can feel like a dice fest and a lot of the units don't get to show off their uniqueness

Yeah, I think I fall in the camp where I simply don’t see what you mean. Rebel troopers and stormtroopers are both basic infantry units. I can’t really imagine, in the context of the game mechanics, how they could possibly be more different than they are. I mean, every army has to have a basic trooper and that’s what these are. Stormtroopers have slightly weaker offense and depend on their dice for defense. Rebels have slightly better offense and rely on dodge for defense. Yes, both have anti-infantry or anti-vehicle upgrades, although the Rebels disable vehicles and the imperials destroy them outright. These are generalist units. Jack of all trades, master of none. Unless you want to seriously limit their abilities in one area I don’t see how you could differentiate them more.

If you are playing Luke and Vader the same you are simply doing it wrong. Leia is a trooper support commander and Veers is a vehicle support commander. Speeder bikes couldn’t be more different than ATRTs and T47s are hugely different than ATSTs. Now we have snowtroopers and fleet troopers which are radically different from each other and from their faction’s standard troopers. So yeah, I just don’t see it. I mean, are you looking for something like Zerg Vs Terran in starcraft or what?

3 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

Thats exactly what I meant, although I disagree that there's enough variety. What we have for now is fine while the game is establishing its basic structure, but eventually new Trooper units will need to be more than just "basic unit, but with slightly different attack dice and an ability which allows them to take a token".

Those minor differences in the Corp units are actually quite a difference., Take the rebel trooper and fleet troopers with a unit of 5 a the rebel troopers are going to hit for a 2.5 hits with aim that going to increase to an average of 3.5. Against rebel troopers they are going to block 1/3 against stormtroopers they block 1/2. Note this is approximate and averages

Now moving to fleet troopers who are limited to range 2 , we are already in new territory, but they hit as hard as 2 squads of stormtroopers , so on average a unit of 5 hits for 5 wounds , this is double what the rebel troopers damage is and with aim they can push this output to about 6.3 or so. So they hit for double what rebel troopers do despite using white dice , and they could take out a unit of 6 troopers with only 3 weapons on an extremely lucky roll. Something no other trooper unit can do yet without heavy weapons.

The imperials defence dice mean that they can stand out in the open a lot easier. The white defence dice mean the rebels really want cover and dodge.

The Snowtroopers ability to move aim and shoot mean they are perfect for dislodging units off objectives and with a flamethrower even if they take casualties they can then take out a unit when they get there, whereas a stormtrooper unit with a DLT19 wants to kick it back at range 3 and take out units at range perhaps from under cover

There is no way you could play the rebels in the same manner as you can the imperials ,as you would find your units chewed up in no time. Just the difference in the defence dice alone ensures that, it's the same as trying a fair melee right between Luke and Vader, unless you were lucky to use son of Skywalker and were lucky on both hits there is a good chance that vaders red dice will kill you in no time.

Stormtroopers vs Rebels in melee is another completely different game

Also take a look at the speeder bike vs the atrt, the speeder bike has the ability to double suppress (2 black all round and a red black white front arc attack), whereas the atr t is walking cover , and armored, so far I see a lot of difference between them, yes they are mirrors but they are significantly different.

Take a look at warhammer age of sigmar line infantry units, most are very similar, the only difference a being simple abilities, a slightly better attack or a slightly better save. This is the same here (not sure if 40k as I haven't played it)

Luke is definitely more of a glass cannon. Vader can afford to take a couple rounds of fire wading into combat, but luke will get shot down rather quickly. Or simply suppressed into sadness. Both will generally kill what they touch, but they have to do it differently.

3 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Luke is definitely more of a glass cannon. Vader can afford to take a couple rounds of fire wading into combat, but luke will get shot down rather quickly. Or simply suppressed into sadness. Both will generally kill what they touch, but they have to do it differently.

Yeah, they get there differently, but that's still their goal, to get up close and wreck face.

As to the rest of the replies, similar answer. I just don't feel the differences are as big as everyone says. Imps shoot better, rebs are (supposed to be) able to defend better (though I don't think they do. I'll take red dice over a white die with a potential dodge token). The imps get a bit better impact options, rebs get better troop killer options. But I still don't think they're differentiated enough. I wanted more assymetry from the rebs, I wanted more organizational rigidity, more numbers, from the imps, but instead they treat both armies as stand-up fighting armies.

I suppose it's more in feel, not just in keywords and dice colors. ****, maybe it's just that the rebel armies don't really feel like a rebel force, but rather like a stand-up army, and I'm just transferring the feelings. I like the game, very much, I'm just feeling some disappointment in execution so far, especially when I heard about the scout troopers getting the special weapon teams.

19 minutes ago, Admiral Theia said:

maybe it's just that the rebel armies don't really feel like a rebel force, but rather like a stand-up army

I mean, I just don't know how different you expect the unit entry of "guy with a rifle" to be from one faction to another...

Or "guy with a lighstaber" for that matter. Yeah, they're kinda similar. Because... they're kinda similar. If Vader was obtusely really good at shooting and sucked in close combat, he'd be different from Luke. But he'd suck, because that's not what Vader should be.

They are pretty different.

I mean your saying things like “ Luke and Vader both want to melee” well uh yeah buddy. But they both do it in their own way. They both have pretty unique command cards. They have parallels but they are different. Example Luke removes suppression. Vader deals it out.

If you feel like rebels are weaker then you may be trying to play them like imperials.

also Luke has jump. Jump is amazing.

How much terrain rain are you playing with?

Imperials are much better with low terrain. Rebels are better with more terrain.

The concrete difference you're looking for will come in due time. The game has only been out for two months and many are complaining about lack of diversity. Give FFG some time, I feel like they're trying to make this game right so just relax and enjoy the ride.

Armada was this way from what people have said (not an Armada player) but if you even look at X-Wing too, a lot of the very early stuff was pretty mirrored- Y-wing and Tie bomber were your bombers, A-wing and Tie interceptor were the aces / interceptors, X wing and Tie advanced were the "jack of all trades" fighters, etc.

It didnt take long for the distinctions between the two factions to come about, they just needed a base before releasing more unique stuff. Obviously it got out of hand with the power creep over time, but Legion is really trying to avoid that.

Ive been mainly playing Imperials while painting and building up a Rebel force to play with in the future, so I've been thinking about strategies on both sides of the table. And to be honest, I've been noticing a lot of differences- many of which others have mentioned on this thread.

But I think you'll find even more differences when you start thinking about the how the factions and lists will work in the context of the deployment, conditions, and objective cards. Certain lists will be better at some battle card arrangements while also being not so good for other arrangements so thinking about those will really make you see how different they are on the little variations between units.

At the end of the day, just enjoy what we do have instead of what we dont yet Flesh out the lists you like and want to use, really get good at understanding the rules and how everything works, and get some terrain going too.

Plus we have 4 more units coming out that we dont have a lot of info on yet, with probably more to be announced.

It’s not 40k, you aren’t going to have 20 different factions with crazy auras and stratagems and completely different stats.

It’s a tactical skirmish game. The differences are more nuanced, but still very important. Empire and Rebels already both have very different play styles, even with the minimal unit variety to date.

When I read the title, I was thinking Rebel vs, Rebel or Imp vs. Imp.

I see differences between the troops, but there are limitations to the game where troops share similarities. That is true for most other skirmish games (hit on 4+/defend 5+ vs. hit on 5+/defend on 4+). Even Warmahordes and GW have troop types that are almost identical, if not identical, between their different playstyle armies. I think these two armies play very differently, so I don't see them as mirror matches.

Here is what to do about mirror armies: Don't bother posting a complaints in the forum, send an email to customer support.

If enough people do this (and state the faction they want) The powers that be may actually understand people want more army variety.

I’m not trying to be a jerk, but quite frankly, the developers - heck even the moderators barely come on here it seems. You will get more traction actually doing something about it rather than a bunch of us complaining in the forum. I have sent a message, whether it has been seen or not is another matter, but as I said if enough people ask for, say the CIS, or for me the First Order, we will make it known more readily than just posting here.

6 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Here is what to do about mirror armies: Don't bother posting a complaints in the forum, send an email to customer support.

If enough people do this (and state the faction they want) The powers that be may actually understand people want more army variety.

I’m not trying to be a jerk, but quite frankly, the developers - heck even the moderators barely come on here it seems. You will get more traction actually doing something about it rather than a bunch of us complaining in the forum. I have sent a message, whether it has been seen or not is another matter, but as I said if enough people ask for, say the CIS, or for me the First Order, we will make it known more readily than just posting here.

Or just get a 400 page thread all expressing the support for the same faction.

I mean, it worked for gunboat.

As units get released the two factions will diversify and it won’t feel the same. And I am sure new factions are coming. Maybe it’s because I live in a vacuum, but the group of friends I play with basically have swarmy Rebels or tanky Imps. The Imperials typically have 3 corps that are toughened up, maybe 4. The Rebels have more barebone units to maximize activations. To me, that’s no longer a mirror match but different tactics employed.

On 5/26/2018 at 6:26 PM, Jake the Hutt said:

You don't? All Trooper units are pretty much the exact same unit with some very minor variations.

Its very very early days in the game bare in mind.