Has anybody else used the Shapeshifter Talents (Shapeshifter and Improved Shapeshifter) from Realms of Terrinoth? If so how do you guys flavor it in your games?

It totally comes off to me like one of two things, the first is druid transformation (which is probably better handled through the augment spell), the second is lycanthropy type curse result as it buffs physical stats, gimps mental ones, is uncontrolled and causes major social issues.

However, there is nothing in the description that prevents the PC from using any weapons other than ranged or any skill other than magic ones. It seems to me that this is ripe for abuse as you could have a melee fighter character who intentionally burns a bunch of high strain costing abilities only to exceed threshold, pass out and transform into an even more effective melee fighter (with full strain to boot). The only trade off being they are stuck in the new form and its social skill checks for the 8 hour duration. If you're the type of player who doesn't care about social encounters or int/will checks then its all gravy, and that feels wrong for a Tier 1 talent with that level of physical stat buff and strain recovery.

I would figure that Shapeshifter as a Tier 1 is there to give people the opportunity to perform druidic transformations, in which case you are locking yourself out of some of your abilities in order to do it. Alternatively you could use it to have a lycanthrope character, but in that case triggering your transformation is actually something that the character would try to avoid and when it did trigger then the GM should play the PC. If its a GM plays the PC, why would a character voluntarily buy this talent since it forces them to lose control of the character? You could mitigate that some by having the player and GM come to an agreement on how the PC behaves when transformed, but that behavior should be rather counter to the PC's normal goals and alliances. Adding improved to it helps the PC trigger it when they need to, or avoid it, but doesn't necessarily give them any more control when it occurs.

Anyway, as you can see, I'm a bit confounded on how to integrate these two talents appropriately into the setting.

51 minutes ago, Ryckarde said:

If you're the type of player who doesn't care about social encounters or int/will checks then its all gravy, and that feels wrong for a Tier 1 talent with that level of physical stat buff and strain recovery. 

This is one of those cases where it's important to have a conversation with players regarding campaign expectations regarding roleplay vs. rollplay. Especially for a system like Genesys that combines crunch with a narrative focus, roleplay is an important consideration that helps balance otherwise overpowered game mechanics. In my campaign, Shapeshifter is one of the few character choices that require GM approval. Anyone who chooses it will need to treat it as a significant part of the PC's RP and not just a combat gimmick.

Yeah, roleplay and narrative consequences are a significant element of the balance of that talent. The players need to know that and respect it. Sometimes you can give them the opportunity to shapeshift and go on a rampage for fun, but they can’t balk when they run out of Strain ina social encounter and transform into a bear in the middle of the Kings feast.

You as gm need to know the narrative drawbacks and ensure they come up in the story.

Also remember the character doesn’t recover wounds, they may be a bit of a tank but when they suddenly become the focus of the entire garrison they better be prepared to run.

As far as what it looks like I think there’s a lot of options;

Magical Curse: caused by an item, a family problem, a Nemesis, an alchemy accident, whatever the case you go feral when most others would pass out from exhaustion

Lycanthropy: You where bitten by something and now you transform, Wolf, bear, spider, dinosaur, lion, something vicious and frightening

Taint or possession: Your study of Necromantic or Ynfernael magic has changed you, twisted you, either through a mislead spell or exposure to evil artefacts. When you transform you grow horns, scales, claws or other unnatural growths.

Personal growth: your connection to a particular animal or place has gifted you the ability to protect it, it was a gift that you willingly accepted even knowing the social stigma that comes with it.

Thanks guys, I pretty much put out the rules you guys mentioned to my players.

1. When transformed you're pretty much attack on sight.

2. Transformations will happen when its inconvenient. (I like the bear in the King's feast idea!)

3. Your character's personality should probably change a bit and not be completely complimentary to their normal personality.

It's something I run across with one of my Players lately.

I'm a bit concerned that this talent can be to strong as written. As my Player is a Primalist, I can easily see him casting so much spells paying 2 Strain each time, to simply pass out only to transform into "the Beast" thus recovering all the Strain suffered. From the beginning, I saw the RAW's cost of spells casting (2 Strain) as a good rule that balances the game-play of spell casting characters. A Mage/Druid character lacking that limitation can simply loose its flavor.

It also bugs my whether they can still use their Melee Heavy weapons after the change or can they more or less function as a normal intelligent being. I see this talent as a some kind of a lycantropy curse or a DDish Druid's Wild Shape ability.

To prevent abusing the game rules and creating an overpowered characters, I'm thinking of making a rule of thumb. After passing out from Strain, character drops everything he is holding in his hands, next he undergoes a transformation at the begging of his next turn. His armor and other personal equipment merges with character. He usually cannot use his Melee Weapons or at least he can't use them properly as his hands becomes sort of animal paws. That leaves the character with a boosted Brawn and unarmed combat dmg and crit rating.

When the character rolls a Despair symbol on any skill check, animal nature takes over. Character looses his mind and can attack an allied character his next turn!

Isn't that too harsh (IMO not as the Player gains second life in fact and this is Tier 1 talent)?

Any other ideas?

Not really too harsh, despairs are supposed to create new possibilities for the narrative and create consequences. Just tell the player in a setting that incorporates that house rule BEFORE they purchase it.

I would simply indicate that any despair the character rolls may be spent by the GM to trigger their transformation and that any despair after transformation can lead to them losing control of the beast (and attacking their allies/civilians, running off/deserting the party, etc).

On 5/21/2018 at 2:29 PM, Ryckarde said:

Alternatively you could use it to have a lycanthrope character, but in that case triggering your transformation is actually something that the character would try to avoid and when it did trigger then the GM should play the PC. If its a GM plays the PC, why would a character voluntarily buy this talent since it forces them to lose control of the character?

It may have been said already, but the Improved Shapeshifter talent finally gives you control over the transformation, whereas the first tier is much like traditional Lycanthropy. Thematically, it'd be considered in my game as "first bitten" with the second talent as "experienced". People would buy the first talent just to have Lycanthropy at all and with the hopes of eventually conquering the transformation for their roleplay. The risk of the journey is that sometimes they'll go wolf and I get to make the story wild.

Our "dumb fighter" took Shapeshifter at creation and we haven't occurred any problems. I have formatted combat to utilze the role of the Shapeshifter and the lowered stats to balance the encounter and puzzles:

• If you make a "clearly best" melee fighter enemy, they will always go for it.
• Assuming positive real-world dynamics, if the fragile member gets attacks, they will save them.
• The occasional Vigilance, Discipline (Fear), or Adventuring check during combat to avoid something harmful utilizes the stat stats lowered while transformed.
  • Vigilance vs Stealth to avoid getting a surprise attack. Smarter enemies would seek this route rather then feed themselves to a frothing wood-chipper
  • Fear versus a horrific/terrifying discovery mid-combat. I avoid surprise attacks the combo into fear checks as it always feels like ganging up on the player.
  • Adventuring when encountering a mechanism or lesser rune that they might figure out is part of a trap or upcoming obstacle in the scene or encounter
• Additional +1 or +2 Melee Defense to the close combat Rivals and Nemeses NPCs to reduce getting felled in a single hit

While every group is different, and each player may enjoy something unique in their role play. There are some drawbacks to some of the solutions proposed here. In short, in the quest to balance Shapeshifter, it is important never to prevent or hinder the ability for someone to transform or dictate what happens after. This also punishes the party as a whole for being associated with someone who transforms into a monster, kills innocents, etc.

Losing Control to the Beast

While losing to the "animal nature" is thematic, you are removing a player's agency over the character. The is definitely not fun for the character and will eventually become not fun for the rest of the group. I wouldn't enjoy it if my NPC beatstick fled combat or killed an ally for failing a roll the generated themselves.

Can't Use their Weapons/Must use Unarmed

This is a harsh limit in a game where relic weapons can be a reward. I am imagining a world where my NPC spellcasters can only every use one Attack+Deadly type of spell action. I don't like that place.

Drops Everything After Transforming

This has the same negatives as the previous one, with the caveat of being able to "cancel it" by spending a round or two picking up you things assuming no talents. If the response is "they can just take talents to alleviate" then controlling where a player must spend XP to enjoy their character is an entirely different set of problems.

Attack Allies/Civilians

There is noting in the Shapeshifter rules that suggests attacking non-enemies is part of the cost. That Talent is Berserk . While an occasional result of a Despair is fine, making it boilerplate on Shapeshifter is just punishing. Have constant out-of-combat penalties for in-combat decisions will reduce the gumption to make said decisions. This also punishes the party as a whole for being associated with someone who kills innocents.

Can Only or Must Attack

Limiting a player's agency over the character is still a bad thing. It also removes the amount of minds you have available to solve your interesting puzzles that may pop up in combat encounters. Similar to Can't Use Weapons/Must use Unarmed.

Randomly Transforming the Character

While this was not suggested here at the time of this posting, it has been suggested in other game systems. Unless there is an in-game reason tied to a dedicated arc, never do this . The robs agency and also expands their transformation until they rest. Sources of strain that threaten a transformation are fine and a part of everyday life. Chugging terrible mead, an off-tune bard that never quits, forced into a boring guild meeting, etc. However, the player must be able to see it coming and have a chance to consider and roleplay a solution. If there is n in-game reason (god of wolves is near, weird magic is about) ensure that the collateral damage is localized. Set it in a small town or village. Do not ruin a character's reputation for the sake of story. Their reputation in-game is their choice and responsibility. This also punishes the party as a whole for being associated with someone who transforms into a monster, kills innocents, etc.

The Goal of Balance

Assuming no Min/Maxing, Shapeshifting is a core part of their character. Yes, have the discussion of the full social repercussions of their choice. Yes, discuss any house rules you think may be needed. However, always consider the real-world social choices said house rules will have. If everyone, including the rest of the group, is onboard for the house rules, go for it. If not, consider some adjustments that can be mad on your side of the screen.

Not sure of Genesys mechanics, but seems the way to temper this would be to attack with natural weapons when transformed (teeth, claws) vs. melee weapons. Not sure if that matters though, in Genesys....but just throwing it out there.

40 minutes ago, IamGazrok said:

Not sure of Genesys mechanics, but seems the way to temper this would be to attack with natural weapons when transformed (teeth, claws) vs. melee weapons. Not sure if that matters though, in Genesys....but just throwing it out there.

There are a few weapon relics, in addition to crafting mechanics, and runic weapon modifications. This quite a limitation.