Sounds like there should be an app for that!

10 hours ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

As for everything else you've both said... Wow, I'm glad ffg isn't in your hands. If you're at all interested in the subject of game design you need to stop blaming the player for your faults as a designer

You keep repeating that sentiment - from what authority or education are you making it? What have you successfully designed that we might reference? People are imperfect. I am a player of this game, blaming (since you love that word) other players, my peers, when they choose to not put forth their best effort. Are you making it not at me but because FFG claimed someplace that their rule book was perfectly written and it's players' fault for being confused? I'm not familiar with any such claim.

3 hours ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

The biggest issue I've been seeing with this game is mainly due to the way the LtP guide is written, and it falls under a few different issues.

• Players don't know there is a RRG (as shown in this very thread)
• Players think that the rules presented in the LtP guide are complete.

The answer to both of those is on the first page of the Learn to Play book, in a bright red box. Besides the picture of the gameplay in progress, it is the visually the most prominent thing on that page. FFG made it the first thing a player reads and graphically attention-grabbing. Aside from getting rid of the rest of the Introduction and Game Overview on that page, how could they have made it more clear? What is the flaw there? Not to mention the other, less prominent locations it's mentioned.

I have nothing to say about the cover rules, if they're intended to function per the revised version on these forums then that was badly done in the original RRG and I personally have zero expectations for other players to be familiar with it or choose to follow it in games right now. I don't claim that the Learn to Play guide is beautifully written, I think leaving suppression out is terribly confusing and I don't teach the game to others that way. Neither do I see it as poorly done.

4 hours ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

Local gaming groups also have their own dynamics, you have groups like your own where others tend to rely on someone else to give them the rules and that is much more reliant on your groups dynamic than the game. You can't say that players are refusing to learn rules, just that that is the dynamic of your group.

I made no reference to a local gaming group, besides referencing one person I play with. I attend and work at conventions across the country and frequent a number of online resources devoted to gaming. In all of these places I see people who are purchasing and playing games they were taught by another person (either at a group or in a convention demo) and never read the rules. I see people making posts on YouTube tutorials that they use them to play games instead of reading the rules. I frequently see people ask questions that demonstrate they did not read the rules because the answer is given by a quoted sentence. I feel, based on all of these varied observations, that I in fact can say many people refuse to learn rules on their own. And yes, I blame them for that . As I ought to - it's called taking responsibility.

I won't bother to argue the point further than this, you clearly have a viewpoint that's very foreign to me, wherein you feel it's acceptable for people to not take responsibility for making an effort, and you feel it's wrong for other people to expect them to. I believe the opposite and can't understand your point of view, just as you apparently can't understand mine.

40 minutes ago, Turan said:

You keep repeating that sentiment - from what authority or education are you making it? What have you successfully designed that we might reference? People are imperfect. I am a player of this game, blaming (since you love that word) other players, my peers, when they choose to not put forth their best effort. Are you making it not at me but because FFG claimed someplace that their rule book was perfectly written and it's players' fault for being confused? I'm not familiar with any such claim.

The answer to both of those is on the first page of the Learn to Play book, in a bright red box. Besides the picture of the gameplay in progress, it is the visually the most prominent thing on that page. FFG made it the first thing a player reads and graphically attention-grabbing. Aside from getting rid of the rest of the Introduction and Game Overview on that page, how could they have made it more clear? What is the flaw there? Not to mention the other, less prominent locations it's mentioned.

I have nothing to say about the cover rules, if they're intended to function per the revised version on these forums then that was badly done in the original RRG and I personally have zero expectations for other players to be familiar with it or choose to follow it in games right now. I don't claim that the Learn to Play guide is beautifully written, I think leaving suppression out is terribly confusing and I don't teach the game to others that way. Neither do I see it as poorly done.

I made no reference to a local gaming group, besides referencing one person I play with. I attend and work at conventions across the country and frequent a number of online resources devoted to gaming. In all of these places I see people who are purchasing and playing games they were taught by another person (either at a group or in a convention demo) and never read the rules. I see people making posts on YouTube tutorials that they use them to play games instead of reading the rules. I frequently see people ask questions that demonstrate they did not read the rules because the answer is given by a quoted sentence. I feel, based on all of these varied observations, that I in fact can say many people refuse to learn rules on their own. And yes, I blame them for that . As I ought to - it's called taking responsibility.

I won't bother to argue the point further than this, you clearly have a viewpoint that's very foreign to me, wherein you feel it's acceptable for people to not take responsibility for making an effort, and you feel it's wrong for other people to expect them to. I believe the opposite and can't understand your point of view, just as you apparently can't understand mine.

First of all I have two degrees on the subject and am finishing up a master's. I've also published 5 games. No I don't need to directly link you too them or tell you from where.

Second, since you couldn't tell I wasn't talking to you in my second post.

Due to the hostile tone you've been taking I've decided I'm done responding to you.

4 hours ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

Local gaming groups also have their own dynamics, you have groups like your own where others tend to rely on someone else to give them the rules and that is much more reliant on your groups dynamic than the game. You can't say that players are refusing to learn rules, just that that is the dynamic of your group. If a player is left alone, purchases a game on their own, refuses to read the rules on their own, and shows up to play matches on their own then you have a problem as a designer.

True story: I have one friend in my gaming group who loves to blame me when I point out that she's trying to make an illegal move, or when I surprise her by making a move that she didn't know was possible. She also tends to let her focus drift when I'm giving my rules explanation, and I've never once seen her pick up a rule book. Should we blame her inattentiveness and lack of initiative, my failure to impart every nuance of the game's rules in an engaging way, or the designer of the board game? You seem to be saying the fault lies entirely with the game material itself. I think it's probably a combination of all of the above.

double post

1 minute ago, Contrapulator said:

True story: I have one friend in my gaming group who loves to blame me when I point out that she's trying to make an illegal move, or when I surprise her by making a move that she didn't know was possible. She also tends to let her focus drift when I'm giving my rules explanation, and I've never once seen her pick up a rule book. Should we blame her inattentiveness and lack of initiative, my failure to impart every nuance of the game's rules in an engaging way, or the designer of the board game? You seem to be saying the fault lies entirely with the game material itself. I think it's probably a combination of all of the above.

In terms of your local dynamic it probably relies slightly on both of you for the situation. You can't put the blame all on your friend as they're doing what your relationship dynamic has lead them to believe to be standard.

What I am talking about here is more about people wanting to learn a game but not willing to learn a game. There is usually an underlying factor related to a games design, its rules, or the rulebook (and other learning resources) that causes issues.

Your issue is different than the one originally presented as people were saying that they see people show up to play that just want open the rules. That is an issue the designer can fix. If someone shows up to play a game with their friend who always is a "rules guy" and expects them to teach them then that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I'm talking only about people misreading rules, or people not reading rules on their own.

If you were to tell me that without you or someone like you in their life your friend wouldn't learn the game due to refusing to pick up a rule book on their own and therefore never play. That is an issue a designer can solve.

3 hours ago, SwdPwnzDggr said:

In terms of your local dynamic it probably relies slightly on both of you for the situation. You can't put the blame all on your friend as they're doing what your relationship dynamic has lead them to believe to be standard.

What I am talking about here is more about people wanting to learn a game but not willing to learn a game. There is usually an underlying factor related to a games design, its rules, or the rulebook (and other learning resources) that causes issues.

Your issue is different than the one originally presented as people were saying that they see people show up to play that just want open the rules. That is an issue the designer can fix. If someone shows up to play a game with their friend who always is a "rules guy" and expects them to teach them then that has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

I'm talking only about people misreading rules, or people not reading rules on their own.

If you were to tell me that without you or someone like you in their life your friend wouldn't learn the game due to refusing to pick up a rule book on their own and therefore never play. That is an issue a designer can solve.

How could anyone on this planet ever read the rule for Star Fleet Battles.

Was an exercise in frustration and perhaps just plain belligerence not to be defeated by the volumes of 8 point text!! No disrespect to anyone that made it through the rules to actually play and enjoy the game, quite frankly you deserve a merit award of some kind.

As a lecturer it's very hard to get students to read anything properly, including exam questions; I often have whole classes who read the first paragraph of a text and then guess the answers to the comprehension questions about the next three. There's an aversion to reading that's bound to filter into games design.

I believe that most rules should just be flow charts and bullet points. But as rules go, this one is easy to navigate through, if a bit unrefined in some points.

On 5/22/2018 at 4:29 AM, Amanal said:

How could anyone on this planet ever read the rule for Star Fleet Battles.

Was an exercise in frustration and perhaps just plain belligerence not to be defeated by the volumes of 8 point text!! No disrespect to anyone that made it through the rules to actually play and enjoy the game, quite frankly you deserve a merit award of some kind.

I read, and memorized, every rule in SFB. ?
And yes, I'm aware I'm crazy. Such a great game in it's time. Can I have my merit now? ?