Currently at a game and have come up against this debate ...

can luke perform a force reflexes (gain a dodge token)

the perform dodge ?

Im getting mixed reviews because force reflexes is a ‘free action’ does that mean you can’t perform a dodge action ??

Hoping for a quick resolution with rulebook backing

thanks

Force reflexes is the free action. That free action happens to give you a dodge token. Luke can take a Dodge action in addition to this because Force Reflexes is not a free dodge action.

As far as rulebook backing, page 11 Actions:

Quote

Game effects can allow units to gain aim, dodge, and
standby tokens. If a game effect specifically instructs a
unit to gain an aim, dodge, or standby token, that effect is
different than performing an aim, dodge, or standby action
and therefore does not trigger abilities that occur after aim,
dodge, or standby actions are performed.

Page 26 Dodge:

Quote

During a unit’s activation, it is possible for a unit to gain
more than one dodge token; however, that unit can only
gain one dodge token from performing a dodge action
during a single activation.

Aim has a similar bullet point about multiple sources of aim tokens.

Page 12

Top

if a game effect provides a unit with a free action of a certain type,such as free attack action,performing that free action does not count against that units two actions per activation BUT is considered an action for the purpose of of game effects and therefore does not allow a unit to perform the same non-none action more than oncduring its activation.

??? So this is there argument ?

36 minutes ago, Riley298 said:

Page 12

Top

if a game effect provides a unit with a free action of a certain type,such as free attack action,performing that free action does not count against that units two actions per activation BUT is considered an action for the purpose of of game effects and therefore does not allow a unit to perform the same non-none action more than oncduring its activation.

??? So this is there argument ?

It seems like there is a fundamental misunderstanding about actions & effects then.

You are performing a free force reflexes card action. The outcome of this is gaining a doge token. No where is there any suggestion that you are performing a dodge action.

The paragraph they are using as their argument is talking about abilities like charge(luke) or relentless(vader). Those abilities allow either character to perform a free attack action. This means you can't use them and also perform an attack action as one of your two per turn actions.

The outcome of the actions (gaining a dodge token) is basically irrelevant to the action limitations during a turn. Its what those specific actions are called and defined as that matters.

You need to pay very careful attention to the exact wording used for any effect or abilitity

Thanks for all your replies I personally agree with you but they won’t have it so I’ll have to get an email from ffg they feel like because the symbol for force relfexes is called a ‘free ACTION symbol’ it all falls under the same bracket annoying as my original thought was because you are receiving a dodge token and not a free dodge action it as different but like I say they won’t have it ?

6 hours ago, Riley298 said:

Thanks for all your replies I personally agree with you but they won’t have it so I’ll have to get an email from ffg they feel like because the symbol for force relfexes is called a ‘free ACTION symbol’ it all falls under the same bracket annoying as my original thought was because you are receiving a dodge token and not a free dodge action it as different but like I say they won’t have it ?

Tell them to look at son of Skywalker then. It's all the proof you need.

9 hours ago, Riley298 said:

Thanks for all your replies I personally agree with you but they won’t have it so I’ll have to get an email from ffg they feel like because the symbol for force relfexes is called a ‘free ACTION symbol’ it all falls under the same bracket annoying as my original thought was because you are receiving a dodge token and not a free dodge action it as different but like I say they won’t have it ?

So what do they feel the purpose of Force Reflexes is then? You don't need Force Reflexes to perform a dodge action so it seems silly to think all Force Reflexes let's you do is preform a free dodge action. It would be a pointless card..

14 minutes ago, Dracilic said:

So what do they feel the purpose of Force Reflexes is then? You don't need Force Reflexes to perform a dodge action so it seems silly to think all Force Reflexes let's you do is preform a free dodge action. It would be a pointless card..

To be fair, if it just allowed you to take a free dodge action, that means Luke can still take a regular move action then a regular attack action in the same activation. There would still be use to it - however I completely agree with the other posters. A Force Reflexes Free Action gives Luke a Dodge token. This is completely separate to taking a Dodge Action to gain a Dodge token.

1 hour ago, Dracilic said:

So what do they feel the purpose of Force Reflexes is then? You don't need Force Reflexes to perform a dodge action so it seems silly to think all Force Reflexes let's you do is preform a free dodge action. It would be a pointless card..

I use it on Vader most every game. It allows me to pick up a dodge token free, move twice with my actions then swing if I'm lucky enough to get into combat or throw my sabre if I'm close enough using Vader's relentless ability. Then I get to ready it for free every turn with master of the force.

It allows you to do other potentially more productive things with your actions and then still be able to get a dodge.

10 hours ago, Riley298 said:

Thanks for all your replies I personally agree with you but they won’t have it so I’ll have to get an email from ffg they feel like because the symbol for force relfexes is called a ‘free ACTION symbol’ it all falls under the same bracket annoying as my original thought was because you are receiving a dodge token and not a free dodge action it as different but like I say they won’t have it ?

That is ridiculous and a waste of the devs time. The rule book is completely sufficient in this case.

18 minutes ago, NukeMaster said:

That is ridiculous and a waste of the devs time. The rule book is completely sufficient in this case.

The at least provide a quote and some reasoning for him to make a case with the people that think otherwise.

Perhaps something like:

P12: "Game effects can allow units to gain aim, dodge, and stand by tokens. If a game effect specifically instructs a unit to gain an aim, dodge, or standby token, that effect is different than performing an aim, dodge, or standby action and therefore does not trigger abilities that occur after aim, dodge, or standby actions are performed."

So Force Reflexes pretty much seems to fit right into that rule on p12, you gain a token and still have 2 actions. Perhaps dodging again as an "action" for a 2nd dodge token and move or attack.

5 minutes ago, Amanal said:

The at least provide a quote and some reasoning for him to make a case with the people that think otherwise.

Perhaps something like:

P12: "Game effects can allow units to gain aim, dodge, and stand by tokens. If a game effect specifically instructs a unit to gain an aim, dodge, or standby token, that effect is different than performing an aim, dodge, or standby action and therefore does not trigger abilities that occur after aim, dodge, or standby actions are performed."

So Force Reflexes pretty much seems to fit right into that rule on p12, you gain a token and still have 2 actions. Perhaps dodging again as an "action" for a 2nd dodge token and move or attack.

I thought the other guys in the thread had explained it well enough.

Sorry I'm probably just in an irritable mood today and people that argue a rule that 99% of the player base understand perfectly well from reading the rule book get to me sometimes.

1 hour ago, NukeMaster said:

I thought the other guys in the thread had explained it well enough.

Sorry I'm probably just in an irritable mood today and people that argue a rule that 99% of the player base understand perfectly well from reading the rule book get to me sometimes.

I thought I had explained it enough and showing them another forum having a pretty much same discussion had been evidence enough and then me posting the specific question would be .. but still no ? anyway thanks for the replies I’ll get confirmation via email of what I already assume the answer is ..

There is also precedent in other abilities like charge that specify "perform a free melee attack action " in this case it is clearly defining it as an attack action, where as force reflexes does not say it is a dodge action, only that it gives you a dodge token, and that the use of the card is a free action.

I would fight a little harder on this, because it takes away Luke's strength as a rock solid point defender. In every mission except recover the supplies it is very easy to get Luke to an objective and then camp the point by taking a recovery action, a dodge action and a a free force reflexes action every round. Giving him 2 dodge tokens to spend on deflect means opponents will think twice about shooting him, and his melee attack strength makes it dangerous to approach the objective. With only 1 dodge token a smart player can can try to strip the dodge with a light attack by a unit they know can take a hit if he deflects then come in with a much stronger attack intended to really hurt Luke. 2 dodge and you need to commit 3 units before you can safely attack him, and that is probably too costly an investment of troops for that one point.

23 hours ago, Riley298 said:

I thought I had explained it enough and showing them another forum having a pretty much same discussion had been evidence enough and then me posting the specific question would be .. but still no ? anyway thanks for the replies I’ll get confirmation via email of what I already assume the answer is ..

The advice from Amanal was to point to page 12 of the Rules book. (The Rules Reference Guide).

You don’t have to take anyone’s word for it, read it. Of course if your “friend” had done this in the first place, you wouldn’t have bothered to ask on the forums, so...

The wording on this is very clear for anyone who actually reads it. There are some times that you just need to choose not to play games with a specific person.