I have a question about aim rerolls!

Lets say I roll 5 black dice against a unit in heavy cover and I have an aim token.

I roll 4 hits, and cover removes two hits before I reroll. I now have 2 hits in play and a blank die. When it comes time to reroll can I only reroll the dice I play, which means I only get to reroll one die? Or can I pull one of the dice blocked by cover to reroll the two dice the token earns me.

Ive been playing it where blocked dice are gone so you don't get your full reroll.

22 minutes ago, OccasionallyCorrect said:

I have a question about aim rerolls!

Lets say I roll 5 black dice against a unit in heavy cover and I have an aim token.

I roll 4 hits, and cover removes two hits before I reroll. I now have 2 hits in play and a blank die. When it comes time to reroll can I only reroll the dice I play, which means I only get to reroll one die? Or can I pull one of the dice blocked by cover to reroll the two dice the token earns me.

Ive been playing it where blocked dice are gone so you don't get your full reroll.

Legion breaks from some of FFG’s other Star Wars games in that rerolls are not part of the dice modification step.

Refer to the attack sequence on page 14. Rerolls come before applying cover and dodge. Dice modifications come after.

You are correct that dice are completely removed when canceled, though.

There it is. I was reading the simplified rule sheet on the adepticon handout and to me it read that you applied dodge and cover before you did any dice modifications, not just card based modifications.

What is covered by the "Modify Attack Dice" step?

Things like Impact. Any modification that isn't surge and a reroll basically.
Note that the attacker applies his modifications first (so don't declare armour before impact for example)

Order of dice manipulation:

1. Roll initial dice pool
2. Spend Aim (or anything else that allows re-rolls) to re-roll dice.
3. Convert surges
4. Apply dodge and cover (these dice are removed and are not subject to further modification)
5. Attacker modifies dice (Impact, etc..)
6. Defender modifies dice (Armor, etc)
7. Defender rolls defense dice
8. Defender re-rolls defense dice
9. Convert surges on defense dice
10. Defender modifies defense dice
11. Attacker modifies defense dice
12. Compare dice
13. Apply damage and suppression

On 5/2/2018 at 1:46 AM, Deuzerre said:

Things like Impact. Any modification that isn't surge and a reroll basically.
Note that the attacker applies his modifications first (so don't declare armour before impact for example)

This is huge because Impact can only resolve on hit results that remain AFTER any hits were removed for cover and dodge.

Also, for some reason it wasn't sticking for me that Impact only triggers when attacking Armor . EDIT: the RRG has a full section on Impact that does not specify that it must be an Armor unit

5 hours ago, Big Easy said:

This is huge because Impact can only resolve on hit results that remain AFTER any hits were removed for cover and dodge.

Also, for some reason it wasn't sticking for me that Impact only triggers when attacking Armor .

Please confirm, under impact it says you can use anytime, not Just vs armor.

2 minutes ago, Chickenpuppy said:

Please confirm, under impact it says you can use anytime, not Just vs armor.

Sorry, you're correct. But the result is the same since at the time Impact triggers, dodge and cover have already been applied and crits are the same as hits to non-armor targets. Thanks for pointing that out!

Just now, Big Easy said:

Sorry, you're correct. But the result is the same since at the time Impact triggers, dodge and cover have already been applied and crits are the same as hits to non-armor targets. Thanks for pointing that out!

No problem, it does end up mattering with esteemed leader. Guardian can not block crits ? .

Yeah, this has come up several times already. It is generally accepted that their intent is impact only works against armor because that text exists on the card. In fact, all of the cards (except Veers’ command card) say armor only, so it is in fact covered. It is most likely an oversight in the RRG that should be corrected. The RRG does say reminder text is “not exhaustive”, but this does not mean one gets to ignore reminder text.

In short, Impact does not undermine Guardian.

Yes, if you really need crits to get through armor or guardian, you can reroll those hits and umm, good luck with that.

Also, impact will happen after dice are canceled. So you can guardian an hit so it can't be turned into a crit, if you had armor with guardian.....

14 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yes, if you really need crits to get through armor or guardian, you can reroll those hits and umm, good luck with that.

Also, impact will happen after dice are canceled. So you can guardian an hit so it can't be turned into a crit, if you had armor with guardian.....

Well, the attacker modifies the attack dice first (attack sequence, page 14). So impact would come before guardian. In the hypothetical case of a trooper with armor.

2 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Well, the attacker modifies the attack dice first (attack sequence, page 14). So impact would come before guardian. In the hypothetical case of a trooper with armor.

This is true. It is dodge and cover first, then impact, then guardian. Not that guardian is on armor anyways. So you reroll those hits if you need to get through guardian.

On 5/7/2018 at 8:41 PM, xbeaker said:

Order of dice manipulation:

1. Roll initial dice pool
2. Spend Aim (or anything else that allows re-rolls) to re-roll dice.
3. Convert surges
4. Apply dodge and cover (these dice are removed and are not subject to further modification)
5. Attacker modifies dice (Impact, etc..)
6. Defender modifies dice (Armor, etc)
7. Defender rolls defense dice
8. Defender re-rolls defense dice
9. Convert surges on defense dice
10. Defender modifies defense dice
11. Attacker modifies defense dice
12. Compare dice
13. Apply damage and suppression

Can I double check 3 , doesn't surges come under attack modifiers (ie point 5,) the reason I ask is that if so surges cannot be affected by dodge or cover , the example in the learning guide actually missed offensive surges but not defensive.

Please ignore checked the RRL and it seems the group I play with missed this one. Surges are before dodge and cover

On 5/8/2018 at 12:35 AM, nashjaee said:

Yeah, this has come up several times already. It is generally accepted that their intent is impact only works against armor because that text exists on the card. In fact, all of the cards (except Veers’ command card) say armor only, so it is in fact covered. It is most likely an oversight in the RRG that should be corrected. The RRG does say reminder text is “not exhaustive”, but this does not mean one gets to ignore reminder text.

In short, Impact does not undermine Guardian.

"General consensus" doesn't override what is written. Even if it's a mistake, RAW state that impact can be used against anyone, even if they don't have the Armor ability. The RRG is the final authority on any rule - it overrides reminder text, the learn to play book, any info sheets in any of the boxes, everything. The only thing it doesn't override, is the tournament regulations, which have yet to be released.

It makes sense to - If I fired an anti-tank rifle at you, the fact that you're not a tank isn't going to make that round hit you any weaker. In fact, it would be more effective against you.

47 minutes ago, RavenwolfXIII said:

"General consensus" doesn't override what is written. Even if it's a mistake, RAW state that impact can be used against anyone, even if they don't have the Armor ability. The RRG is the final authority on any rule - it overrides reminder text, the learn to play book, any info sheets in any of the boxes, everything. The only thing it doesn't override, is the tournament regulations, which have yet to be released.

It makes sense to - If I fired an anti-tank rifle at you, the fact that you're not a tank isn't going to make that round hit you any weaker. In fact, it would be more effective against you.

The RRG is overwritten by card components.

It does not overwrite everything.

Because thems the Golden Rules

THAT is the crux of the issue for the other side of the argument.

Since card components were contradicting the core rules, the card should take precedence - just does that extend to “reminder” text or not.

2 hours ago, RavenwolfXIII said:

"General consensus" doesn't override what is written. Even if it's a mistake, RAW state that impact can be used against anyone, even if they don't have the Armor ability. The RRG is the final authority on any rule - it overrides reminder text, the learn to play book, any info sheets in any of the boxes, everything. The only thing it doesn't override, is the tournament regulations, which have yet to be released.

It makes sense to - If I fired an anti-tank rifle at you, the fact that you're not a tank isn't going to make that round hit you any weaker. In fact, it would be more effective against you.

This has been clarified in a developer email. The RRG omission is a mistake they are fixing ASAP. And that email also confirmed that 'helper text' does not define any ability or mechanic, but provides some information that may be useful to prevent having to look up the RRG. If a card effect was introduced on the card main text or keywords, that would override the RRG.

3 hours ago, RavenwolfXIII said:

"General consensus" doesn't override what is written. Even if it's a mistake

For all practical purposes, yes it can. In a purely academic discussion, you’re right it does not.

Anyway:

As @Big Easy noted above, we have an email clarification that says armor only. We also learned in that email that reminder text is not rules text. Presumably because, ideally, reminder text and the RRG should be conveying the same idea - which they don’t right now due to a mistake.

And just to preempt any “oh, emails don’t count” positions out there: the RRG doesn’t say reminder text doesn’t count as rules text (and thus can’t override the RRG). So you’re going to need the email to make that case ?

8 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

The RRG is overwritten by card components.

It does not overwrite everything.

Because thems the Golden Rules

THAT is the crux of the issue for the other side of the argument.

Since card components were contradicting the core rules, the card should take precedence - just does that extend to “reminder” text or not.

No, it's not. It even states in the RRG that it is the final arbiter, and that is how every other FFG game works.

"This document is the definitive source for all STAR WARS: LEGION rules. Before using this document, players should read and understand the rules presented in the Learn to Play booklet. As questions arise during gameplay, the players should refer to this document." Pg 2, First lines.

6 hours ago, Big Easy said:

This has been clarified in a developer email. The RRG omission is a mistake they are fixing ASAP. And that email also confirmed that 'helper text' does not define any ability or mechanic, but provides some information that may be useful to prevent having to look up the RRG. If a card effect was introduced on the card main text or keywords, that would override the RRG.

I understand that he's clarified it, but until it's in the RRG, it's not official. In the L5R living card game, they released a "Support" role card in one product, but failed to update the RRG for it, which stated that you could only use one of the pre-existing Keeper/Seeker roles in deckbuilding - the Support role was not officially legal for tournament play untill they updated the RRG. Even though the card 'existed'.

In Legion terms, this would be like releasing Boba Fett and not updating the RRG to explicitly state that you can take 0-2 Operatives, which would result in Boba Fett not being legal for tournament play until they do .

In short; No, the RRG is the top authority. It is in every other game they've ever made. Cards do not override the RRG. (By your logic, any card errata in the RRG wouldn't work... because the cards would then override the RRG? No.)

@RavenwolfXIII , take a look at the Golden Rules (page 4) that Dras referred to. They outline the hierarchy of rules sources. Cards always overrule the RRG.

7 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

@RavenwolfXIII , take a look at the Golden Rules (page 4) that Dras referred to. They outline the hierarchy of rules sources. Cards always overrule the RRG.

Utterly dumb system on a ruleboook that will get updated more often than the bloody cards.

It’s the only way cards WORK.

Otherwise you would have to put every rule on cards in the rule book.

Create a new rule or effect? Has to be in the rule book or it doesn’t work.

The Golden Rules are how it works.

And it’s a rule in the Rulebook,

SO EVEN IF YOU BELIEVE THE RULEBOOK RULES ARE DEFINITIVE, IT TELLS YOU CARDS OVERRULE IT.

Now what if a card says that the RRG overules?

Also, chill.

56 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

Now what if a card says that the RRG overules?

Also, chill.

The first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club.

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

Create a new rule or effect? Has to be in the rule book or it doesn’t work.

That's... exactly what they do. As I explained earlier, the same thing happened in L5R when they created a deckbuilding option that wasn't in the rulebook at the time of it's release - it wasn't valid in tournament play UNTIL they updated the RRG. The same thing will come up if they don't add rules for Operator unit types to the RRG before/just after the Boba Fett release.

2 hours ago, nashjaee said:

@RavenwolfXIII , take a look at the Golden Rules (page 4) that Dras referred to. They outline the hierarchy of rules sources. Cards always overrule the RRG.

I did.

"If an effect on a card or another component contradicts rules found in the Learn to Play booklet or Rules Reference, that component takes precedence." Reminder text is not 'an effect'. I realize that there could be a lot of ambiguity on this, since the term "effect" is not defined in the RRG. (They define the word 'then' in the L5R rulebook, so this isn't a stretch to expect.)

It's not like they can magically change what the cards say; they have to do that through a card errata....in the RRG. Which would then be overwritten by the cards back to their original wording, if you use your interpretation.

EDIT: I should point out, I full agree that Impact SHOULD be limited to only armor. Crits are so strong in this game already, they don't need that boost. My point, however, is that an email from the developer and reminder text do not override the RAW as they are in the RRG.

I also want to point out that FFG has stated in all of their other tournament regulations that only the officially published documents listed by them are valid in tournament rulings. Emails from the creator, while helpful and let us know that these issues are being looked at, cannot and should not be treated as if they are official rules documents.