1 minute ago, ReoitahiKid said:

It seems pretty clear cut to me. If any minis in a unit end up in difficult terrain, which obviously includes placing them in cohesion with the leader, the whole move has a reduced max speed.

Yup, this is clear. When area terrain is involved, a model is very clearly in or out.

The unclear part is when a barricade, for example, is involved. You can’t be in a barricade. But did one of the minis move through it? That’s the question.

18 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Yup, this is clear. When area terrain is involved, a model is very clearly in or out.

The unclear part is when a barricade, for example, is involved. You can’t be in a barricade. But did one of the minis move through it? That’s the question.

Ah, I see where the confusion is. But unless there's a speed 1 move that doesn't cross the barricade, units placed in cohesion would move through it, so that would also reduce the speed based on the current wording. They're not just teleporting there, after all.

Now imagine your leader is on one side of a barricade or any other things piece of cover. From my understanding, you could do a two speed move along that cover and have infantry hop over it and end up on the other side because at no point any of the figures ever goes through/in cover.

Has anyone put in a rules email about this?

People think it's obvious both ways, might as well get it cleared up.

7 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Has anyone put in a rules email about this?

People think it's obvious both ways, might as well get it cleared up.

I sent an email and will update.

On 4/26/2018 at 6:06 PM, nashjaee said:

It may be reasonable to assume that the "move through" portion only refers to the movement of the leader, since no other minis have a defined path that they follow.

If there is no way to reach the cohesion location from the unit leaders position, then it’s not a legal location. They diagram this on page 19 of the RRG.

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

If there is no way to reach the cohesion location from the unit leaders position, then it’s not a legal location. They diagram this on page 19 of the RRG.

The diagram in question demonstrates that there is no legal move option through impassable terrain. This is true.

A speed-1 move over a barricade is legal, therefor it could be performed as a speed-1 move, therefor it is a legal placement position.

At no point in any rule, in the L2P guide or RRG, does the game ever state that figures actually execute a legal speed-1 move from the unit leader's location to their final cohesion position. In fact, all throughout the Cohesion rule entry on Page 18 and the Movement rule entry on Page 33, the RRG specifically states that Cohesion is a "placement", not a move.

5 hours ago, Derrault said:

If there is no way to reach the cohesion location from the unit leaders position, then it’s not a legal location. They diagram this on page 19 of the RRG.

This is true, but not relevant to the question at hand. I suggested that perhaps they were only referring to the leader’s path because the other minis don’t have a defined point-A to point-B path during movement. They just get picked up and placed somewhere in cohesion.

Hopefully we get an answer to the question soon.

7 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

The diagram in question demonstrates that there is no legal move option through impassable terrain. This is true.

A speed-1 move over a barricade is legal, therefor it could be performed as a speed-1 move, therefor it is a legal placement position.

At no point in any rule, in the L2P guide or RRG, does the game ever state that figures actually execute a legal speed-1 move from the unit leader's location to their final cohesion position. In fact, all throughout the Cohesion rule entry on Page 18 and the Movement rule entry on Page 33, the RRG specifically states that Cohesion is a "placement", not a move.

I still think the other side isn’t quite managing to get their point across for you, based on the responses

Lets try this

-Is the cohesion placement a part of the move action itself? I’d argue yes, as it’s step 5 of a standard move according to page 33.

- If cohesion is a part of move, as we established above, then the cohesion placement would have to respect the paragraph below, correct?

“While performing a standard move, a unit that would move through or enter difficult terrain with any of its minis has its maximum speed reduced by 1 , to a minimum of 1”

- If the cohesion placement has to respect the above paragraph, we need to consider whether the cohesion placement satisfies “has any mini in the unit entered difficult terrain?” Well, if you place them in it, I’d say they entered it(it doesn’t specify a specific way they enter, just that they entered it)

- So we’ve established they entered difficult terrain. Which trips the paragraph quoted above, which retroactively tells us it should have been a speed 1 move, not a full speed 2 move

- So now your left in the position of either rewinding the move action or not being allowed to place the mini’s in the terrain or some unknown condition?

This is one of the issues with the wording of movement and difficult terrain I think.

If you have a rebuttal, could you address it point by point? That’s the sort of response required to keep both sides understanding the others I think.

10 minutes ago, Thoras said:

I still think the other side isn’t quite managing to get their point across for you, based on the responses

Lets try this

-Is the cohesion placement a part of the move action itself? I’d argue yes, as it’s step 5 of a standard move according to page 33.

- If cohesion is a part of move, as we established above, then the cohesion placement would have to respect the paragraph below, correct?

“While performing a standard move, a unit that would move through or enter difficult terrain with any of its minis has its maximum speed reduced by 1 , to a minimum of 1”

- If the cohesion placement has to respect the above paragraph, we need to consider whether the cohesion placement satisfies “has any mini in the unit entered difficult terrain?” Well, if you place them in it, I’d say they entered it(it doesn’t specify a specific way they enter, just that they entered it)

- So we’ve established they entered difficult terrain. Which trips the paragraph quoted above, which retroactively tells us it should have been a speed 1 move, not a full speed 2 move

- So now your left in the position of either rewinding the move action or not being allowed to place the mini’s in the terrain or some unknown condition?

This is one of the issues with the wording of movement and difficult terrain I think.

If you have a rebuttal, could you address it point by point? That’s the sort of response required to keep both sides understanding the others I think.

You're talking about difficult area terrain. I'm talking about passing barricades.

Yes, if a model begins or ends the move action in difficult area terrain, even as a result of the cohesion placement, the entire move action is slowed.

I don't think anyone has argued otherwise.

It certainly needs clarification. The same fuzzy scenario could apply if the unit leader starts in front of a barricade with his unit behind it, and then they move out into clear ground.

If that constitutes a “move through” difficult terrain, then you start getting into weird scenarios where you have to establish a movement path for the non-leader minis.

1 hour ago, Orkimedes said:

It certainly needs clarification. The same fuzzy scenario could apply if the unit leader starts in front of a barricade with his unit behind it, and then they move out into clear ground.

If that constitutes a “move through” difficult terrain, then you start getting into weird scenarios where you have to establish a movement path for the non-leader minis.

When placing in cohesion you already do that. If the only range 1 way to reach the new location (from the leader) passes through a difficult terrain (aka a barricade for trooper units) then the movement speed would have been reduced to movement 1.

18 minutes ago, Derrault said:

When placing in cohesion you already do that. If the only range 1 way to reach the new location (from the leader) passes through a difficult terrain (aka a barricade for trooper units) then the movement speed would have been reduced to movement 1.

Right, but what if you start with minis behind a barricade (but the leader in the open) and move out into the open. In that case, as measured from the new position of the unit leader, you don’t have to cross any terrain to place the rest of the unit in cohesion, but it’s clear they would have had to move out from behind the barricade to get there.

3 hours ago, Orkimedes said:

Right, but what if you start with minis behind a barricade (but the leader in the open) and move out into the open. In that case, as measured from the new position of the unit leader, you don’t have to cross any terrain to place the rest of the unit in cohesion, but it’s clear they would have had to move out from behind the barricade to get there.

Good question, the difficult terrain entry in the RRG specifically calls out barricades as difficult terrain for troopers (pg 25), shortly after (in the same entry) describing how any mini of a unit that would move through difficult terrain as part of its movement has the whole speed reduced to 1.

So, yes, if some minis are on the other side (and that was a choice that only the owner of unit could have made...unless they somehow displaced their own units) they get speed reduced if the movement would take them through the barricade.

7 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Good question, the difficult terrain entry in the RRG specifically calls out barricades as difficult terrain for troopers (pg 25), shortly after (in the same entry) describing how any mini of a unit that would move through difficult terrain as part of its movement has the whole speed reduced to 1.

So, yes, if some minis are on the other side (and that was a choice that only the owner of unit could have made...unless they somehow displaced their own units) they get speed reduced if the movement would take them through the barricade.

But we still haven’t resolved the important question: how do you determine if any of those minis went through the barrier? By rule they just get picked up and placed in cohesion. You don’t track each minis movement path. The rule book even tells you to feel free to move non-leader minis out of the way because they, essentially, don’t matter while planning the movement.

The only potential way I can see this is if the cohesion distance counts as the “movement path” for this purpose. And the only way that I can see this being the case is if the email response says this was their intent. And even then, it wouldn’t cover the situation described in that example.

Just now, nashjaee said:

But we still haven’t resolved the important question: how do you determine if any of those minis went through the barrier? By rule they just get picked up and placed in cohesion. You don’t track each minis movement path. The rule book even tells you to feel free to move non-leader minis out of the way because they, essentially, don’t matter while planning the movement.

The only potential way I can see this is if the cohesion distance counts as the “movement path” for this purpose. And the only way that I can see this being the case is if the email response says this was their intent. And even then, it wouldn’t cover the situation described in that example.

I’d say if the unit leader moves parallel to the barrier or in a direction towards the side the other mini is on, not a problem. If it moved at any angle away from the side the other mini is on, it would be difficult. There’s no need to measure because movement 2 can’t get you around a barricade any faster than movement 1 directly through it.

Ie a right angle made with the movement 2 tool is the same as a straight line with movement 1.

8 minutes ago, Derrault said:

I’d say if the unit leader moves parallel to the barrier or in a direction towards the side the other mini is on, not a problem. If it moved at any angle away from the side the other mini is on, it would be difficult. There’s no need to measure because movement 2 can’t get you around a barricade any faster than movement 1 directly through it.

Ie a right angle made with the movement 2 tool is the same as a straight line with movement 1.

I’ll be honest: my question was a little bit rhetorical. I’m not sure there’s is any way, currently per rules, to measure the path of each mini because they don’t really have one.

What you’ve described may be physically or realistically reasonable, but not founded in the ruleset. If you and your opponent agree to play this way as a house rule that’s cool. Just realize it is, for now at least, a house rule.

10 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

I’ll be honest: my question was a little bit rhetorical. I’m not sure there’s is any way, currently per rules, to measure the path of each mini because they don’t really have one.

What you’ve described may be physically or realistically reasonable, but not founded in the ruleset. If you and your opponent agree to play this way as a house rule that’s cool. Just realize it is, for now at least, a house rule.

The rules state if any mini in the unit would traverse difficult terrain. Barrier = difficult terrain. Any scenario in which a mini ends up on one side of a barrier after being on the other side is physically impossible without traversing difficult terrain.

Ergo, you are wrong, by RAW.

4 hours ago, Derrault said:

The rules state if any mini in the unit would traverse difficult terrain. Barrier = difficult terrain. Any scenario in which a mini ends up on one side of a barrier after being on the other side is physically impossible without traversing difficult terrain.

Ergo, you are wrong, by RAW.

I think your missing his point. Mini’s places by cohesion don’t move through things, they just get placed somewhere.

So if the rule requires you to move through something, the point being made is you can’t do that with cohesion and a barricade. It’d only be tripped by area terrain.

You appear to be inserting rules about the non leader mini’s actually moving like the leader mini does, when in game terms they effectively teleport from one spot to the next.

@Tvayumat aha! Progress, ok. It wasn’t clear to me from your earlier posts you were concerned with barricades only. I think I agree, in the case of barricades specifically.

Right, I think the problem is that, by RAW, the only mini that actually moves is the unit leader. The barricade was just the clearest example I could think of where the “move through” part of the difficult terrain clause becomes problematic for non-leader minis.

It gets a lot fuzzier when you have difficult terrain somewhere along the middle of the movement path, not directly in the path of the unit leader, but arguably in the way of non-leader minis.

Right now it seems like the “move through” bit only applies to the unit leader, given that 1) by RAW, the non-leader minis don’t have a movement path, and 2) even if one could argue they did, there’s no clear, consistent, objective way to determine what that path would be (and it would be very cumbersome to do so).

It’s an area right now that could use clarification. Since this rule set is going to be used in tourneys, there should be clear, objective ways to determine when and if that bit of the difficult terrain clause applies to non-leader minis.

By RAW, I apply it as

"if at least 1 mini of my unit starts or ends in a terrain I apply movement penalty.
If minis were not in terrain and do not end up not in terrain, the leader not crossing terrain, then there are no penalties."

I won't teleport a mini in terrain when the leader didn't move in terrain and moved its full distance. The non leaders are basically "infinite distance movement" so limitations don't apply to them unless they cause a penalty that would apply to the whole unit. They could be running around the whole map, terrain excepted, it wouldn't make a difference.

25 minutes ago, Deuzerre said:

By RAW, I apply it as

"if at least 1 mini of my unit starts or ends in a terrain I apply movement penalty.
If minis were not in terrain and do not end up not in terrain, the leader not crossing terrain, then there are no penalties."

I won't teleport a mini in terrain when the leader didn't move in terrain and moved its full distance. The non leaders are basically "infinite distance movement" so limitations don't apply to them unless they cause a penalty that would apply to the whole unit. They could be running around the whole map, terrain excepted, it wouldn't make a difference.

I think that’s the correct interpretation.

This just seems like one of those things that’s going to be argued about a lot at tables until some official word comes out. The concept of just moving one mini and then “teleporting” the rest of the unit into cohesion (which I agree is what happens by RAW) is a little different than in most other mini games and will take some getting used to for people.

13 hours ago, Thoras said:

I think your missing his point. Mini’s places by cohesion don’t move through things, they just get placed somewhere.

So if the rule requires you to move through something, the point being made is you can’t do that with cohesion and a barricade. It’d only be tripped by area terrain.

You appear to be inserting rules about the non leader mini’s actually moving like the leader mini does, when in game terms they effectively teleport from one spot to the next.

@Tvayumat aha! Progress, ok. It wasn’t clear to me from your earlier posts you were concerned with barricades only. I think I agree, in the case of barricades specifically.

The rule actually specifies that it applies to all the minis of a unit that would move through. As in, hypothetically.

6 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The rule actually specifies that it applies to all the minis of a unit that would move through. As in, hypothetically.

Do me a favor and cite, with page number reference, where in the RRG you are instructed to perform a move as part of cohesion placement.

12 minutes ago, Derrault said:

The rule actually specifies that it applies to all the minis of a unit that would move through. As in, hypothetically.

You are absolutely correct! It applies to all of the minis that move through.

In this case, “all of the minis” = the unit leader. ? Because it’s the only one that moves through anything. All other minis are picked up and placed.

I really don’t mean for that to sound snarky, just trying to make my point. To define a path for the other minis to move through, even hypothetically, is to introduce a new rule that does not currently exist!