I've heard a couple different lengths for how long a given match should be at a tournament. They seem pretty consistently around 2 hour. This gives players about an hour a piece for their part of the game and an average of 10 minutes per round. This works well when players act decisively and can be frustrating when your opponent does not.

I come from a background of competitive X-Wing, where "slow play" can be abused and lead to final results that have nothing to do with the skill of the two players at the table.

My proposed solution for these issues of game time is using a turn clock similar to those used in competitive chess.

The rules for how to implement this would need to be modified from chess a bit, but could encourage a more positive play experience.

How do you think this would affect competitive play? Do you think this would be a good addition to the rules for competition, and what are some of the rules you would write to make this work?

I’m of the mind that things need to be actual problems before we jump to trying solutions ?

Putting an actual minute limit on individual turns means tracking that, tracking by that means a chess clock... chess clock means adhering to snapping turns when things change over...

... do you run your clock while your enemy is deciding on dodge tokens or rolling defence dice?

Lots of back and forth. Not quite as clear cut as yours and mine. And that is ripe for its own manipulation unless regulated.

we also yet don’t know what the actual time limits for tournament play will be so far... it’s a guess...

I’m still in wait and see before trying to work things out.

Legion APPEARS to be a fun cooperative game... I mean, if you know me, you know I am ALL ABOUT rules and regulations... Regulate what you need for sure, but if you can keep a game casual, keep it casual.

(My thoughts on chess clocks are personal and backed by my own experiments at adding one to Armada, a somewhat similar case game.)

FWIW, the time limit for the 800pt game in Operation: Gathering Forces is 120 minutes. There is no time limit provided for games in the Single Day Event structure in Operation: Silent Hail .

Given this information, one could speculate that the time limit for games in a Single Day Event will be 120 minutes. These are all Relaxed Tier so far.

If a time limit had to be imposed, then I would think you would just end the game early with the current round being finished before actually ending the game. I just don't see a problem stemming from this really.

I'm not sure a clock would work because as @Drasnighta said there is two much back and forth with dodge tokens and defending, you'd end up battering the poor clock when ever the control passed between players.

43 minutes ago, Alathazal said:

If a time limit had to be imposed, then I would think you would just end the game early with the current round being finished before actually ending the game. I just don't see a problem stemming from this really.

I'm not sure a clock would work because as @Drasnighta said there is two much back and forth with dodge tokens and defending, you'd end up battering the poor clock when ever the control passed between players.

There are a lot of issues with a round timer actually. It takes control away from the players, it can be difficult to keep track of for players, it promotes stalling in unscrupulous players.

The stalling issue is the biggest deal. 15 minutes left in the round. Your up by 1 vp. You then proceed to spend 5 minutes figuring out how to issue your orders. 5 minutes to determine your first activation and then by the time your nearing the end of your units, the round ends and you win.

Your opponent is then forced to either accept this or call you out for stalling. Forcing someone to call someone else out for stalling has all its own issues.

If each player is instead allowed half the round timer in time for themselves, it’s fair for each player. If you stall, you risk losing when times runs out.

People have legitimate concerns with the chess clock style for legion though. There are plenty of opposed rolls and opponent decisions. This leads to potentially flopping the clock back and forth, which is not the style of game I believe they are going for. It works, but you need to accept a particular mindset for the game.

More on this conversation:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/292188657930333?view=permalink&id=393142664501598

1 minute ago, Boggy Leafwater said:

More on this conversation:
https://m.facebook.com/groups/292188657930333?view=permalink&id=393142664501598

No permissions

It's in this group:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/swlegionffg/

I'm not an admin in there, sorry. ?

Eh, it’s mostly going to be rehashing the discussion that we had in Armada previously.

The point of an open forum is discussion... closed places just... urgh...

4 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Eh, it’s mostly going to be rehashing the discussion that we had in Armada previously.

The point of an open forum is discussion... closed places just... urgh...

It pretty much is.

And you’re generally not missing much...

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Eh, it’s mostly going to be rehashing the discussion that we had in Armada previously.

The point of an open forum is discussion... closed places just... urgh...

The Star Wars Legion FB page is even more toxic than when nelson was around. It's best to stay away.

20 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

The Star Wars Legion FB page is even more toxic than when nelson was around. It's best to stay away.

Can you, or someone, explain to me what you mean when you say that the FB page or this forum is "toxic"? I guess I'm not up on current lingo when it comes to social media because that doesn't parse for me.

5 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

Can you, or someone, explain to me what you mean when you say that the FB page or this forum is "toxic"? I guess I'm not up on current lingo when it comes to social media because that doesn't parse for me.

Someone will post something, and then everyone gets into an argument. Sometimes it's related to the topic, sometimes it's not. There are also troll posts looking to instigate fights, and sometimes you get the rare post calling out the mods for deleting stuff. I'm pretty sure every thread that reaches 100 comments is locked or deleted to stop people from fighting.

Imagine a page where you combine the Star Wars fans that hate all the new movies with people who only read half the rules but think they know them all. That's the vibe I get from FB Legion page.

The only good content is the painting, and not all the posts are bad. But I swear at least once a day something will explode.

9 minutes ago, NeonWolf said:

Can you, or someone, explain to me what you mean when you say that the FB page or this forum is "toxic"? I guess I'm not up on current lingo when it comes to social media because that doesn't parse for me.

Well, to be fair, it doesn’t seem to be quite as bad as when it first formed. I haven’t seen the word “snowflake” thrown around in a while . But I also don’t check-in there very often anymore.

I can count on one finger (maybe two) in which "slow play" was an issue in competitive Xwing by my opponent in the last 3+ years (I came in during wave 4). For a time I was fairly active in the greater Seattle/Tacoma area tournament scene. In probably thousands of games, 1 or 2 games does not make a major problem.

To the OP... if you have a problem like this in your area, can you simply choose other opponents of only go to tournaments with TOs that will help keep your opponents moving?

@Undeadguy and @nashjaee

Thanks, now I understand. "Toxic=full of a-holes"

I am a member of both the FB Legion and Legion Painting pages. I don't read much on the Legion page since it seems like people are just asking the same things they could find here with less fuss. Apparently I'm old or something because I prefer a forum to Discord or FB for information sharing. FB is for advertising or events if you ask me and Discord should just be for video games, but that's my opinion.

Back on topic, I don't think tournament clocks would work too well in this game for reasons already stated. I can see "slow play" being an issue at a competitive level but that is something that should be dealt with on an individual basis by the TO of the event. Again, just my opinion.

7 hours ago, NeonWolf said:

@Undeadguy and @nashjaee

Thanks, now I understand. "Toxic=full of a-holes"

I am a member of both the FB Legion and Legion Painting pages. I don't read much on the Legion page since it seems like people are just asking the same things they could find here with less fuss. Apparently I'm old or something because I prefer a forum to Discord or FB for information sharing. FB is for advertising or events if you ask me and Discord should just be for video games, but that's my opinion.

Back on topic, I don't think tournament clocks would work too well in this game for reasons already stated. I can see "slow play" being an issue at a competitive level but that is something that should be dealt with on an individual basis by the TO of the event. Again, just my opinion.

No reason you can’t have both. Tournament clocks to spur action, Organizers to enforce adjudication of fair play.

One that that might be worth trying at some point is a few games with a chess clock set for it.

I hadn't considered gaming with one until some of the discussions about early Kings of War brought it up and the suggestion to try one out, and it drastically changes the way games play. There are more "mistakes" that pop up as people go and you get different styles of forces develop to handle it.

You may need to work out a fair duration for each player with it, probably more than those that had been suggested for KoW due to the alternating unit activation, but it could make for an interesting twist for a tournament

I’ve tried it with Armada.

I initiated a group test with it...

in short, it made games ::longer:: for those who didn’t need it, and increased stress to the point where some were saying it was “un enjoyable”...

but as scientific as I was, my sample size is small... and of course for a different, albeit similar game...

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

I’ve tried it with Armada.

I initiated a group test with it...

in short, it made games ::longer:: for those who didn’t need it, and increased stress to the point where some were saying it was “un enjoyable”...

but as scientific as I was, my sample size is small... and of course for a different, albeit similar game...

How could it possibly make a game longer?

Standard rules on a timer game are that if you run out of time, you lose (forfeit) the game. There’s no way it can extend a games length.

3 minutes ago, Derrault said:

How could it possibly make a game longer?

Standard rules on a timer game are that if you run out of time, you lose (forfeit) the game. There’s no way it can extend a games length.

Check my quote.

"for those who didn't need it"

These were people who were already playing a game under time .

The single biggest complaint was the fact that they had to waste time switching in between actions in the middle of the turn to switch to the other players side of the clock so they were not unfairly punished for their opponents decision making process (which is the entire point of it).

To the point that games started going to time when these people normally wrapped up under 2 hours.

Testing - of course - what introducing a chess clock would be like as a mandatory tournament component .

Our combined conclusion: It is a Great training tool to learn how to play the game faster overall in a casual setting... But horrible for the actual tournament component itself simply due to the added stress and timing components beyond the game itself. You didn't feel like you were playing Armada anymore.

1 minute ago, Drasnighta said:

Check my quote.

"for those who didn't need it"

These were people who were already playing a game under time .

The single biggest complaint was the fact that they had to waste time switching in between actions in the middle of the turn to switch to the other players side of the clock so they were not unfairly punished for their opponents decision making process (which is the entire point of it).

To the point that games started going to time when these people normally wrapped up under 2 hours.

Our combined conclusion: It is a Great training tool to learn how to play the game faster overall in a casual setting... But horrible for the actual tournament component itself simply due to the added stress and timing components beyond the game itself. You didn't feel like you were playing Armada anymore.

Huh, that’s surprising that someone might encounter a problem swapping timers. On every timer I’ve ever used switching is a simple button hit, takes a split second.

And, adding tension from introducing time management is actually part of the intended use.

2 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Huh, that’s surprising that someone might encounter a problem swapping timers. On every timer I’ve ever used switching is a simple button hit, takes a split second.

And, adding tension from introducing time management is actually part of the intended use.

Its also a matter of Remembering to do it. On top of the decision making process itself.

BUt I'll draw attention to the last line of your quote there.

Why have we made the assumption that tension due to time management is an intended part of the game?

I mean... if it was a design feature of the game itself ... Wouldn't it be... Y'know... Incorporated in the rules?

Instead, we're seemingly given a game that is intended to be played in a casual, friendly, and most importantly, mutually agreed upon basis... The very terrain rules effectively mandate that, since you need to discuss - and agree with your opponent beforehand...

Ramping up the stress at that point by adding time management - beyond a casual self-awareness - seems... Counter-Intuitive to the game.

I mean, effectively, on a personal note , I decided on Armada instead of X-Wing because I preferred the slower, contemplative, beard-stroking concept of making a plan and setting that plan in action and watching it unfold over time in a limited time framework rather than the snap conditional decision making process of X-Wing unbound by turn limits.

I personally feel Legion is not that different - its seemingly designed as a larger, broader, gross tactical game... And should be treated and respected as such... If it was intended to be a dozen model skirmish game wrapped up as quickly as possible, it would be... designed that way... y'know?

But again, I can only offer my parallel arguments on the subject from my Armada experiences, and they don't directly translate to Legion as of yet because we don't have tournament rules or really, have a decent sample size of scientifically generated data to draw any points to - only anecdotal evidence...

So I look forward to seeing how things tend to pan out.

But I am violently, vehemently opposed to Chess Clocks in games where they're not warranted... Not to say that in some games they're Not warranted - in some, they totally, totally are... But casting a wide anecdotal net, they don't seem to be the sorts of games that are played... casually, or with opponents agreements, or any sort of variability or "wiggle room" in the rules. These are games where the rules are set and inviolable and air-tight .

Legion... aint that sort of game, to me... And although I can't call much to myself... I do tend to know rules.

Right, it might be designed to have a 6 turn limit for example, to have games avoid becoming ponderous.

7 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

But I am violently, vehemently opposed to Chess Clocks in games where they're not warranted... Not to say that in some games they're Not warranted - in some, they totally, totally are... But casting a wide anecdotal net, they don't seem to be the sorts of games that are played... casually, or with opponents agreements, or any sort of variability or "wiggle room" in the rules. These are games where the rules are set and inviolable and air-tight .

Legion... aint that sort of game, to me... And although I can't call much to myself... I do tend to know rules.

What games do you file under that? Other than chess itself, I can't think of any. No miniature war games i can think of.

I mean, there isn't meant to be any variability or "wiggle room" in legions rules anymore than any other war game either. It's just due to ambiguities in the rules or differing levels of understanding of them. The only variability I can see is in the definition of terrain and the same rules for terrain hold true in warmachine, which is considered one of the tightest rulesets out there. Warmachine also has plenty of agreements with opponents and variable understanding of the rules, despite it being for the most part a tighter ruleset.

I'm not trying to discount your experience at all, but do you think your perception of it adding time to the game length might be more a by-product of the unfamiliarity with using the chess clocks, rather than a result of the chess clocks themselves? I.E. Once the players were used to them, a lot of the "adding time" would have vanished?

Warmachine plays 100 times faster with a chess clock than without for the majority of players. It can also have even more opponent decisions or action requirements during your own turn than legion can, depending on the lists in play.

Just being so used to playing on clock, I find it hard to picture it adding time once your familiar with using the clock in a game.