In recent games we came across two scenarios of things with Force Push that aren't covered in the rules.

The first being the push someone off of a building, there was a squad of rebel troopers with an objective who clambored up a building and while Vader couldn't get into melee with them from his position, he was dead on for tossing them back off of it.

For the time being we went with the effect being the same as another clambor move and the same roll for survival, but there isn't anything I can find that says what happened.

The second thing was Luke managing to get into a position to push Vader off the map rather than an actual fight there (Vader eliminated someone running with an objective there and then got hit for it). Rules seem to imply that it would be the same as if they wandered off any other way, but I just wanted to know about it.

I believe you got both correct.

Force Push says to “perform a speed-1 move”, so you just follow the standard rules for moving. On page 33 of the RRG:

Quote

In addition to a standard move, each unit type can perform
other types of moves, as follows:
» Troopers can climb and clamber.
» Troopers in an engagement can withdraw.
» Repulsor vehicles can pivot and move through troopers.
» Ground vehicles can pivot, reverse, and
displace troopers.

So assuming the unit leader is in contact with the terrain edge (which it sounds like is the case since they had just clambered up), you can force the unit to clamber down with that “speed-1 move”.

Walking off the edge is covered on page 23:

Quote

If a unit leader ends its movement with any part of its base
outside of the battlefield, the unit is defeated.

Piggybacking on this, if you force push a unit you get to make a speed one move with the entire unit. If you push the unit leader to within 1-speed of the board edge, you should be able to place the non-leaders off the board in cohesion. However, the rules do not specify that those non-leader units would be defeated by moving off the battlefield, so you might as well just leave them at the board edge. There might even be a catch all rule that says something about non-leaders in cohesion being forced to be placed on the battlefield, though I have to found it.

Quote

In addition to a standard move, each unit type can perform
other types of moves, as follows:
» Troopers can climb and clamber.
» Troopers in an engagement can withdraw.
» Repulsor vehicles can pivot and move through troopers.
» Ground vehicles can pivot, reverse, and
displace troopers.

Force push allows you to force a speed-1 move on a unit (leader), as a standard move, this disallowed climb, clamber, withdraw and pivot as these are are not standard movements. I would surmise that cohesion for the rest of the unit after the leader has been pushed would fall to the player who owns the unit in the same way that displaced troopers are replaced on the battlefield. As for being defeated from being pushed off the battlefield, I would hope that it wouldn't be a valid tactic, but we'll have to wait and see, a subsection in movement regarding forced movement wouldn't go a miss.

20 minutes ago, Alathazal said:

Force push allows you to force a speed-1 move on a unit (leader), as a standard move, this disallowed climb, clamber, withdraw and pivot as these are are not standard movements. I would surmise that cohesion for the rest of the unit after the leader has been pushed would fall to the player who owns the unit in the same way that displaced troopers are replaced on the battlefield. As for being defeated from being pushed off the battlefield, I would hope that it wouldn't be a valid tactic, but we'll have to wait and see, a subsection in movement regarding forced movement wouldn't go a miss.

While I personally would prefer a rule clarification that prevents force pushing off the board edge (because taking player agency away from their own units is a fun killer in my experience), similar tactics were allowed in games like X wing where you can tractor beam a ship onto an asteroid to destroy it, I believe.

20 minutes ago, Alathazal said:

Force push allows you to force a speed-1 move on a unit (leader), as a standard move, this disallowed climb, clamber, withdraw and pivot as these are are not standard movements. I would surmise that cohesion for the rest of the unit after the leader has been pushed would fall to the player who owns the unit in the same way that displaced troopers are replaced on the battlefield. As for being defeated from being pushed off the battlefield, I would hope that it wouldn't be a valid tactic, but we'll have to wait and see, a subsection in movement regarding forced movement wouldn't go a miss.

While I personally would prefer a rule clarification that prevents force pushing off the board edge (because taking player agency away from their own units is a fun killer in my experience), similar tactics were allowed in games like X wing where you can tractor beam a ship onto an asteroid to destroy it, I believe.

10 minutes ago, Alathazal said:

Force push allows you to force a speed-1 move on a unit (leader), as a standard move, this disallowed climb, clamber, withdraw and pivot as these are are not standard movements. I would surmise that cohesion for the rest of the unit after the leader has been pushed would fall to the player who owns the unit in the same way that displaced troopers are replaced on the battlefield. As for being defeated from being pushed off the battlefield, I would hope that it wouldn't be a valid tactic, but we'll have to wait and see, a subsection in movement regarding forced movement wouldn't go a miss.

Force Push does NOT say "perform a speed-1 standard move". It says "perform a speed-1 move". The quoted passage clarifies that all of these are types of "moves", and thus should be legal to perform as a result of Force Push.

On your second point, the player performing Force Push places the minis in cohesion. Again, it says "perform a [...] move", and placing minis in cohesion is one of the steps of movement. Specifically, it is step 5 on page 33.

And being pushed off the board is indeed a valid tactic. I don't think it's a particularly powerful one because if it happens to you it is entirely your fault for moving your unit into Vader's threat range and close to the board edge.

4 minutes ago, Big Easy said:

While I personally would prefer a rule clarification that prevents force pushing off the board edge (because taking player agency away from their own units is a fun killer in my experience), similar tactics we're allowed in games like X wing where you can tractor beam a ship onto an asteroid to destroy it, I believe. In Legion, withdraw isn't a standard move but if you couldn't move off the edge as a standard move, how does panic off the board edge work? Aren't you forced to make two standard moves toward the board edge until you withdraw or remove panic?

I don't think it removes agency (see my post above. You had agency when you placed your unit in the threat range and near the edge.). Panic causes you to perform 1 move at your full speed, but yes can cause you to leave the table.

Just now, nashjaee said:

I don't think it removes agency (see my post above. You had agency when you placed your unit in the threat range and near the edge.). Panic causes you to perform 1 move and your full speed, but yes can cause you to leave the table.

On second thought I agree. I just hate when the other guy feels like an action I take is "gamey" even if it's supported by the rules. Although anyone should have this happen to them exactly once before it never happens to them again!

7 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Force Push does NOT say "perform a speed-1 standard move". It says "perform a speed-1 move". The quoted passage clarifies that all of these are types of "moves", and thus should be legal to perform as a result of Force Push.

On your second point, the player performing Force Push places the minis in cohesion. Again, it says "perform a [...] move", and placing minis in cohesion is one of the steps of movement. Specifically, it is step 5 on page 33.

And being pushed off the board is indeed a valid tactic. I don't think it's a particularly powerful one because if it happens to you it is entirely your fault for moving your unit into Vader's threat range and close to the board edge.

You are right it states a speed-1 move, not standard move, so I'll give you withdraw (since it does state even if engaged), but climb, clamber and pivot do not involve a speed, you cannot perform a speed-1 climb or pivot.

And again yes cohesion is part of move so at the movement it would be up to the "pushing" player. At least they have to be placed on the battlefield, they wouldn't be in cohesion if they were off the battlefield. I would still like to see a sub-section on forced movement, to affirm such rules as death by double force push (one per each commander, which I assume would be an option in the future).

29 minutes ago, nashjaee said:

Force Push does NOT say "perform a speed-1 standard move". It says "perform a speed-1 move". The quoted passage clarifies that all of these are types of "moves", and thus should be legal to perform as a result of Force Push.

On your second point, the player performing Force Push places the minis in cohesion. Again, it says "perform a [...] move", and placing minis in cohesion is one of the steps of movement. Specifically, it is step 5 on page 33.

And being pushed off the board is indeed a valid tactic. I don't think it's a particularly powerful one because if it happens to you it is entirely your fault for moving your unit into Vader's threat range and close to the board edge.

Force push says to make a speed 1 move, it does not say a move action. So you couldn't climb or clamber in the same way that compulsory moves say to make a full speed move, not a move action, so you are not allowed to pivot.

7 minutes ago, Alathazal said:

You are right it states a speed-1 move, not standard move, so I'll give you withdraw (since it does state even if engaged), but climb, clamber and pivot do not involve a speed, you cannot perform a speed-1 climb or pivot.

And again yes cohesion is part of move so at the movement it would be up to the "pushing" player. At least they have to be placed on the battlefield, they wouldn't be in cohesion if they were off the battlefield. I would still like to see a sub-section on forced movement, to affirm such rules as death by double force push (one per each commander, which I assume would be an option in the future).

Withdraw is not listed as a move action it is it's own type of action so I don't think you can even make a unit withdraw with force push.

6 minutes ago, KingCHUD said:

Withdraw is not listed as a move action it is it's own type of action so I don't think you can even make a unit withdraw with force push.

No, but they can make a speed-1 move, even if they were engaged, which would equate to the same thing (a speed-1 move out of engaged melee).

2 minutes ago, Alathazal said:

No, but they can make a speed-1 move, even if they were engaged, which would equate to the same thing (a speed-1 move out of engaged melee).

Engaged RRG pg 26

Quote

While a trooper unit is in a melee with another trooper unit,
those units are engaged. A unit that is engaged cannot perform
moves, cannot be displaced, cannot perform ranged attacks, and
cannot be targeted by ranged attacks.

Seems pretty clear to me.

24 minutes ago, Big Easy said:

Although anyone should have this happen to them exactly once before it never happens to them again!

Yeah, exactly! Similar to getting forced off the edge turn 1 because your unit was panicked by an AT-ST mortar, you learn very quickly and shouldn't allow it to happen again .

I completely agree with your point about agency, though. I haven't touched X-Wing in over a year because -- at that time -- I felt too many changes had been introduced that took away any sense of strategy or tactics on my part. There were lists you would go up against and think "so you're telling me there is literally no approach vector I can take to deal with the card combos you've brought? I just have to take it and hope you blank on the dice?". I don't remember the exact lists, but I hear the game is in a better place now. Anyway...

@Alathazal , @KingCHUD , agreed it does not say "move action", it only says "move". However, the passage I quoted appears to clarify that climb and clamber are types of moves .

Quote

In addition to a standard move, each unit type can perform
other types of moves , as follows

So, I am instructed to select one of your trooper units and perform a move. I select a trooper in range and perform a clamber with it. Did I perform a move? Page 33 suggests that I did.

6 minutes ago, KingCHUD said:

Engaged RRG pg 26

Seems pretty clear to me.

The problem here is the text on Force Push: "[...] even if it is engaged." Golden Rules on page 4 say that cards take precedence over RRG, and "cannot" is only absolute when it appears on a card. So Force Push can be used to move an engaged unit.

1 minute ago, nashjaee said:

The problem here is the text on Force Push: "[...] even if it is engaged." Golden Rules on page 4 say that cards take precedence over RRG, and "cannot" is only absolute when it appears on a card. So Force Push can be used to move an engaged unit.

You are totally right I forgot it said that. I still think that they need to clarify the rules for force pushing off of a building though.

Yes, Engaged says they can't perform moves but the card overrules the Rules. It specifically says perform a speed 1 move even if engaged.

Ninja'd. that's what I get for not refreshing after I've finished reading the posts.

28 minutes ago, KingCHUD said:

You are totally right I forgot it said that. I still think that they need to clarify the rules for force pushing off of a building though.

It would be pretty messed up to have the picture of Luke being force pushed out a window and then say you can’t do that with the card.

22 minutes ago, Derrault said:

It would be pretty messed up to have the picture of Luke being force pushed out a window and then say you can’t do that with the card.

I think it is a cool thing to do for sure. I just think it should be clarified in the rules like Panic is.

You have to differentiate between a (standard / non-standard) move or move action and a speed-1 move. The speed-1 is a subset of available move options, but with the option already pre-chosen for you. If force push would state "perform a move", a clamber would be fine, but we have to do a legal speed-1 movement,

This means:

• We can make a legal move with the template (speed-1)
• We can't use any other move action such as pivot or clamber
• It's state nowhere that I can't legally end my move outside the playing area, but...
• ...if the unit leader ends its movement outside the playing area, that unit is defeated

1 hour ago, spielervier said:

You have to differentiate between a (standard / non-standard) move or move action and a speed-1 move. The speed-1 is a subset of available move options, but with the option already pre-chosen for you. If force push would state "perform a move", a clamber would be fine, but we have to do a legal speed-1 movement,

This means:

• We can make a legal move with the template (speed-1)
• We can't use any other move action such as pivot or clamber
• It's state nowhere that I can't legally end my move outside the playing area, but...
• ...if the unit leader ends its movement outside the playing area, that unit is defeated

It could also be that "speed-1 move" is a shorthand so that they don't have to write some longer-winded thing like "[...] perform a move with that unit [...]. If you perform a standard move, it must be speed 1". Card real-estate is precious.

In any case, I've submitted a query and will update when I get an answer.

Ive also wondered how this interacts with the charge keyword and starting a melee generally.

It seems clear that you can use force push to start a melee with the targeted unit, since all you have to do to start a melee is move a unit leader into base contact with an enemy (assuming you are using this while within a speed 1 move of the target’s unit leader).

However, charge states that a unit can make a free melee attack after the unit with the charge keyword moves to start a melee. In the case of force push, it would seem that Luke cannot move, use force push to pull an enemy into melee with him, and then use the free attack from charge, since it is the force pushed unit that is actually moving to start the melee. Thoughts?

5 minutes ago, Orkimedes said:

Ive also wondered how this interacts with the charge keyword and starting a melee generally.

It seems clear that you can use force push to start a melee with the targeted unit, since all you have to do to start a melee is move a unit leader into base contact with an enemy (assuming you are using this while within a speed 1 move of the target’s unit leader).

However, charge states that a unit can make a free melee attack after the unit with the charge keyword moves to start a melee. In the case of force push, it would seem that Luke cannot move, use force push to pull an enemy into melee with him, and then use the free attack from charge, since it is the force pushed unit that is actually moving to start the melee. Thoughts?

Yup, I think you got it. You can't use charge after you move a different unit into you.

Well, I stand corrected! No clambering with Force Push!

Quote

Q: A question has come up regarding Force Push. What exactly constitutes a "speed-1 move"? Can I perform any subset of move (i.e., climb or clamber) that is available to the chosen unit, or does it have to be a "standard move" using the movement template?

A: No, you cannot perform any subsets of moves. A speed-1 move is a standard move using the 1 speed template. Climb or clamber cannot performed with Force push.

for simplicity's sake im glad they ruled against it but from a contextual standpoint....wtf that should totally be allowed (and force the roll even if you have grapples). Not that its all that common of an event anyway.