12 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

It might involve some rules changes, but yeah my first thought would be an elegant designed airspeeder.

I could see that for the reduction in passengers, but that would end up with a swoop at Sil 1 and max Spd of 4 with Racing Hull. Considering most are between 2-4 not a really big deal, though IIRC there are 2 or so with Spd 5 I think. That still leaves us at Sil 1 though...

I just went with base air speeder and will just assume you need a re-breather/vac suit to get to max altitude until something better comes up.

15 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

I could see that for the reduction in passengers, but that would end up with a swoop at Sil 1 and max Spd of 4 with Racing Hull. Considering most are between 2-4 not a really big deal, though IIRC there are 2 or so with Spd 5 I think. That still leaves us at Sil 1 though...

I just went with base air speeder and will just assume you need a re-breather/vac suit to get to max altitude until something better comes up.

You're right for some reason I was thinking an airspeeder was sil 3.

On 6/4/2018 at 8:48 PM, Jareth Valar said:

I could see that for the reduction in passengers, but that would end up with a swoop at Sil 1 and max Spd of 4 with Racing Hull. Considering most are between 2-4 not a really big deal, though IIRC there are 2 or so with Spd 5 I think. That still leaves us at Sil 1 though...

I just went with base air speeder and will just assume you need a re-breather/vac suit to get to max altitude until something better comes up.

I just made some updates that I think that you will appreciate

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ybl46t4cq4wmhs4/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pptx

note that I haven't yet fiddled with building a speeder (so additional tweaks may be forthcoming) but they should get you to 300 meters for a speeder bike/swoop, and enable folding speeders.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I just made some updates that I think that you will appreciate

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ybl46t4cq4wmhs4/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pptx

note that I haven't yet fiddled with building a speeder (so additional tweaks may be forthcoming) but they should get you to 300 meters for a speeder bike/swoop, and enable folding speeders.

Very nice Elias. Clean, simple and efficient.

4 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Very nice Elias. Clean, simple and efficient.

I personally believe that "clean, simple, efficient" is the only way the masses will use something, and my house rules may be approaching the limit of what's acceptable, what I think is keeping it in bounds is I tabulated the complicated math and, rounded tabulated numbers to be clean/easy to use

Thank you for devoting so much of your time to this project!

1 hour ago, salamar_dree said:

Thank you for devoting so much of your time to this project!

I love doing it, but feedback really helps... I can't discover every defect by myself. I generally get to put in about 3 hours in on it every Thursday and Saturday night (my wife is a night nurse, and that's about how much time I have between when my 10.5 month old son falls asleep and when I go to bed), but last week's Thursday was the release of unlimited power and my group gamed on Sunday so I was prepping my character Saturday night. I do get the chance to read this thread daily though so if you can post a concern I can start to think about how to address it and have a solution ready to write up Thursday or Saturday.

20 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I just made some updates that I think that you will appreciate

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ybl46t4cq4wmhs4/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pptx

note that I haven't yet fiddled with building a speeder (so additional tweaks may be forthcoming) but they should get you to 300 meters for a speeder bike/swoop, and enable folding speeders.

good stuff, anyway I could get you could convert that into a PDF? Open Office is having some issues with it.

10 hours ago, Raicheck said:

good stuff, anyway I could get you could convert that into a PDF? Open Office is having some issues with it.

Glad you like it, and as requested here's the current pdf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/2w9oicv7s63dhmg/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pdf

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Glad you like it, and as requested here's the current pdf

http://www.mediafire.com/file/2w9oicv7s63dhmg/TheNubianDesignCollectivesWholeVehicleCraftingHandbook.pdf

Thank you! Now I can actually enjoy reading through it, instead of the lag filled endurance read the other had become

41 minutes ago, Raicheck said:

Thank you! Now I can actually enjoy reading through it, instead of the lag filled endurance read the other had become

You're welcome. And please try finding problems with it. I can't fix problems until I know what they are and I can't find all of the problems by myself.

I might be able to find the time to build some ships.

What kind of feedback is most useful?

Extreme results?

Also, once the difficulty exceeds 5p, are you just upgrading (i.e.: ppppp then rpppp) from then on?

Lessons Learned (both yours and the ones in Fully Operational) do not say, "May only be selected once". If I fail with 8 advantage, can we stack up the boosts?

Also, why is the Integrated Systems hull result 2 hp in your version, but 1 hp in Fully Operational?

I appreciate the work you're putting into this and hope to see a better version of ship crafting rules compared to the F.O. rules. That being said, why have it fluctuate hard points if the players rolls well? Example: Freighter frame gets reduced by one silhouette and gets punished for it?

8 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

I might be able to find the time to build some ships.

What kind of feedback is most useful?

Extreme results?

Also, once the difficulty exceeds 5p, are you just upgrading (i.e.: ppppp then rpppp) from then on?

Lessons Learned (both yours and the ones in Fully Operational) do not say, "May only be selected once". If I fail with 8 advantage, can we stack up the boosts?

Also, why is the Integrated Systems hull result 2 hp in your version, but 1 hp in Fully Operational?

Try building your favorite ships... chances are favorite ships are extreme ships (they're favorites because they are in some way(s) better)... try breaking/abusing the system

After difficultly exceeds 5p, it's still 5p but you have to flip a destiny point to attempt the check, at least that's the way I'd run it, and it's unlikely that there are more than 5 dp in the pool and you'd get that once a session (note that you don't have to build the whole ship in one session)

Yes you can stack boosts. If you want to game the system you can churn out speeder bike frame after speeder bike frame to get a big pile of boosts and then make 1 attempt to build the ship frame, that's RAW legal, and I expect that there are gamers out there who would try that routinely.

Integrated improvements is 2 advantage in fully operational sales as in my rules but I have adjust the costs and benefits of other things, like "larger scope" (it increases hp, crew, and passengers in my rules but not fully operational).

3 hours ago, Grimstory said:

I appreciate the work you're putting into this and hope to see a better version of ship crafting rules compared to the F.O. rules. That being said, why have it fluctuate hard points if the players rolls well? Example: Freighter frame gets reduced by one silhouette and gets punished for it?

It's to make the hp appropriate to the size of the ship you're building, bigger ships need more hp (e.g. so they can add more dedicated cargo bays) likewise smaller ships can have fewer cargo bays added, that along with the exponential growth of enc with silhouette is needed to replicate the range of cargo weapons etc. The bottom line is that bigger ships need more hp to fulfill their bigger missions, smaller ships need less hp because they have smaller missions (a sil 4 ship is likely to have about a hundred (maybe a few hundred) enc, a sil 5 ship could have 10K enc)

Some items have so many mods, that just stopping at 5p and flipping a DP doesn't seem like enough.

In the games I play in and run (both on Discord and IRL), we upgrade after 5p. Also introduces the possibility of Despair).

(BTW: Lightsaber crystals are notorious for having a lot of mods).

With the mods, developer suggestion was to upgrade for every level after formidable. Not flat rules, but 'what he would do in his game'.

6 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

With the mods, developer suggestion was to upgrade for every level after formidable. Not flat rules, but 'what he would do in his game'.

That's fine if a gm wants to run it that way, it's not my first inclination but it should still work. However, the point of there being a lot of mods is NOT to do them all but to choose the ones that are *most* appropriate to the ship you're building. You generally don't order one of everything on the menu at an expensive restaurant, the same principle applies here.

? Or do both.

Nothing to say that an Impossible task is ONLY and a DP flip.

Okay, I tried crafting an extreme fighter. I used one of my player's stats. He has a YYYY Mechanics pool, a rank of Eye for Detail and a Specialized Tool that grants an Automatic Success. I used Eye for Detail every time that there was at least 2 Successes. I rolled using Discord.

Starfighter: 1S, 3A (+1 hp, +1 boost next)

Electron Baffled Engine: 4S, 1A, 1Tri (Enhanced Power to Shields +2/0, +1 boost next)

Mods:

+2 Spd: 4S, 1A (+1 boost next)

+3 SS Thresh: 3S, 0A

+3 SS Thresh: 3S, 1Thr (+1 setback next)

+2 Spd: 0S, 0A (Fail)

+0/+1 Increase Defense: 1S, 0A, 1 Tri (+1 Upgrade next)

Gunship: 1S, 2A, 1Tri (Integrated Systems--Oversized External Weapons Mount, Layered Plating)

Mods:

+1 Handling: 2S, 2A, 1Tri (+2 boost, +1 upgrade)

+1 Additional Oversized Weapon: 6S, 3A, 1Tri (+3 boost, +1 upgrade)

+1 Armor: 2S, 5A (+5 boost)

+2/+0 Increase Shields: 0S, 4A, 2Tri (Fail, but +4 boost, +2 upgrades)

Assembly: 1A, 10A, 1Tri (Customized Controls, Distinctive Style, Improved Safety Features, Masterful Construction, +4 boosts next)

This is when I stopped due to time reasons. At this point, the ship could mount 2 Light Turbolasers (on a Sil 3 Starfighter).

So far, my suggestions would be to remove the in-built oversize weapon option on the Gunship hull and to change the Integrated Systems result on the crafting table from a 2 hardpoint attachment to a 1 hardpoint attachment.

Minor typos:

On the Frame crafting table the 1A option for Passengers says "buy" when you meant "by".

On the Engine crafting table the 1Tri option for Fine-Tuned says "Remove 3 from..."

Otherwise, it's looking good!

6 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

Okay, I tried crafting an extreme fighter. I used one of my player's stats. He has a YYYY Mechanics pool, a rank of Eye for Detail and a Specialized Tool that grants an Automatic Success. I used Eye for Detail every time that there was at least 2 Successes. I rolled using Discord.

Starfighter: 1S, 3A (+1 hp, +1 boost next)

Electron Baffled Engine: 4S, 1A, 1Tri (Enhanced Power to Shields +2/0, +1 boost next)

Mods:

+2 Spd: 4S, 1A (+1 boost next)

+3 SS Thresh: 3S, 0A

+3 SS Thresh: 3S, 1Thr (+1 setback next)

+2 Spd: 0S, 0A (Fail)

+0/+1 Increase Defense: 1S, 0A, 1 Tri (+1 Upgrade next)

Gunship: 1S, 2A, 1Tri (Integrated Systems--Oversized External Weapons Mount, Layered Plating)

Mods:

+1 Handling: 2S, 2A, 1Tri (+2 boost, +1 upgrade)

+1 Additional Oversized Weapon: 6S, 3A, 1Tri (+3 boost, +1 upgrade)

+1 Armor: 2S, 5A (+5 boost)

+2/+0 Increase Shields: 0S, 4A, 2Tri (Fail, but +4 boost, +2 upgrades)

Assembly: 1A, 10A, 1Tri (Customized Controls, Distinctive Style, Improved Safety Features, Masterful Construction, +4 boosts next)

This is when I stopped due to time reasons. At this point, the ship could mount 2 Light Turbolasers (on a Sil 3 Starfighter).

If you also have the oversized weapons mount from dangerous covenants then you maybe able to get linked 1 light turbolasers on a fighter (I'd have to check the wording) but there's no way that youd be able to get two light turbolasers that could fire independently (meaning that you can't fire every other round). I probably ought to increase the hardpoint cost for oversized weapons to 2hp (actual hardpoints each) to make it more difficult to pull off. But this isn't that different than an A10 warthog, so I don't see why a purpose built fighter shouldn't be able to do this.

I was just going off the wording of your Gunship hull. There was a mod for adding either an additional Oversize weapon or adding Linked.

As worded, you could add up to 3 additional integrated Oversize weapons, which could take the Oversize Weapon Mount attachment (which is actually listed as 2hp, but could take more at GM's discretion).

Also, I noticed that the Reinforced Construction option that is present on the Fully Operational Frame chart is missing on yours. Was that intentional?

Also, the Astromech Socket isn't mentioned in the Hyperdrive section. I'm not sure how you're handling that, but it should probably at least be mentioned.

Not super functional, but getting Turbolasers on a Sil 3 ship seems outrageous. The B-Wing only mounts a weapon normally reserved for Sil 4 ships. In my opinion, it just has the actual attachment, which is fine by me.

I think the Gunship would be better served by dropping any mention of the Oversize weapon thing, and instead put in some Increase Hull Trauma Threshold Mods.