@salamar_dree

Page 22 to 23 of this thread I think for laats

Since only speeders are rated smaller... the speeder frame should have the crafting upgrade name it something humorous like " deceptive advertising " and allow it to be treated a being 1 silhouette smaller after construction is completed. The fluff text can mention that

Because speeders were developed long before starships, different standards arose. While most modern speeders use the same standards as starships, corporate executives occasionally find it profitable to use the archaic standards for marketing purposes. After the airspeeder has been assembled reduce it's listed silhouette by 1.

Yep. 22-23.

I never did stat the LAAT/c as Sil 4.

I'll work on that!

Love "Deceptive Advertising"!

@salamar_dree we might do something similar to deceptive advertising to explain the kst-100 (in reality it's a small sil 4 listed as a large sil 3)

Maybe call it "ambiguous silhouette" have it cost a triumph or 2, and come with passenger and cargo restrictions... basically it just gets you more hp for an easier roll.

That could apply to the HWK-290 as well!

And "Ambiguous Silhouette" sounds really good.

😁

21 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

That could apply to the HWK-290 as well!

And "Ambiguous Silhouette" sounds really good.

😁

How about

Ambiguous silhouette is a 4 advantage or 1 triumph crafting upgrade that requires elegant design and uses a silhouette one larger than reduced silhouette to determine hp.

@EliasWindrider

Which crafting table?

I'm thinking Assembly, Hull, and/or Frame.

Also, it would need a note as to what the vehicle counts as the higher Sil (i.e.: Modular Pods, etc.)

1 hour ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

Which crafting table?

I'm thinking Assembly, Hull, and/or Frame.

Also, it would need a note as to what the vehicle counts as the higher Sil (i.e.: Modular Pods, etc.)

Frame (same as elegant design) . Hard points only. You can use the extra hp for cargo but with the dedicated cargo bays etc from the smaller silhouette. Hp is the only thing that changes mechanically.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Frame (same as elegant design) . Hit points only. You can use the extra hp for cargo but with the dedicated cargo bays etc from the smaller silhouette. Hp is the only thing that changes mechanically.

Does that mean that I still need to use Sil 4 for the LAAT/c in order to carry the AT-TE?

😁

2 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

Does that mean that I still need to use Sil 4 for the LAAT/c in order to carry the AT-TE?

😁

Yes. Deceptive advertising and only speeders get deceptive advertising

Deceptive advertising is better than ambiguous silhouette

I think the primary difference between air speeders and starships is speeders can't mount a hyperdrive, and are limited to within the orbit of a planet (e.g. can go to the moon and back if they have sufficient life support and ion drives) I should revise the fluff text on that.

@EliasWindrider

LAAT/c Airspeeder

Sil 3, Spd 4, Handling -2, Def 1/1, Armor 2, HTT 20, SST 15

Sensors: Medium, Crew 3, Passengers 2, Enc 15, 2 Weapons, Customization HP 2

Airspeeder (Custom HP 10, HTT 15+5, Larger Scope ×2, Officers Quarters +2 crew/-2 Pass, Reinforced Construction, Integrated Improvement; Crew 6-3, Passengers 2, Enc 5)

Single Ion Coil (-2 HP, Spd 1+3, SST 8+8, Enhanced Power to Deflectors, Def 1/1)

Transport (Armor 1+1, Handling -2, Halve Crew, Extra HP)

Assembly (Extra HP, Deceptive Advertising)

Modular Pod Docking Clamp Sil 4 (-3 HP)

Reinforced Frame (-2 HP)
Sensors (-1 HP)
Weapons ×2 (-2 HP)
Customization HP 2 (-2 HP)

This build is doable. The SST is 1 higher and the cargo is off (either 5 Enc or 35 Enc with a Cargo Pod).

Needs an Extra HP from both the Hull and Assembly checks (there are already a lot of stuff going on with the Frame check). However, the Sil-1 (min 1) works for this build.

I'm not sure where you wanted to put the Deceptive Advertising, but to me it seems best during Assembly.

It will need a bit of text to clarify Speeders only, and that the Sil reduction occurs after all components are added (otherwise, it wouldn't impact the MPDC).

However, it could be an issue if it applies to Weapons (Sil 4 Airspeeder w/ Gunship Hull would be Sil 3... and could have a Light Turbolaser).

1 hour ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

LAAT/c Airspeeder

Sil 3, Spd 4, Handling -2, Def 1/1, Armor 2, HTT 20, SST 15

Sensors: Medium, Crew 3, Passengers 2, Enc 15, 2 Weapons, Customization HP 2

Airspeeder (Custom HP 10, HTT 15+5, Larger Scope ×2, Officers Quarters +2 crew/-2 Pass, Reinforced Construction, Integrated Improvement; Crew 6-3, Passengers 2, Enc 5)

Single Ion Coil (-2 HP, Spd 1+3, SST 8+8, Enhanced Power to Deflectors, Def 1/1)

Transport (Armor 1+1, Handling -2, Halve Crew, Extra HP)

Assembly (Extra HP, Deceptive Advertising)

Modular Pod Docking Clamp Sil 4 (-3 HP)

Reinforced Frame (-2 HP)
Sensors (-1 HP)
Weapons ×2 (-2 HP)
Customization HP 2 (-2 HP)

This build is doable. The SST is 1 higher and the cargo is off (either 5 Enc or 35 Enc with a Cargo Pod).

Needs an Extra HP from both the Hull and Assembly checks (there are already a lot of stuff going on with the Frame check). However, the Sil-1 (min 1) works for this build.

I'm not sure where you wanted to put the Deceptive Advertising, but to me it seems best during Assembly.

It will need a bit of text to clarify Speeders only, and that the Sil reduction occurs after all components are added (otherwise, it wouldn't impact the MPDC).

However, it could be an issue if it applies to Weapons (Sil 4 Airspeeder w/ Gunship Hull would be Sil 3... and could have a Light Turbolaser).

Deceptive advertising is a feature of the airspeeder frame so it goes with frame crafting... built in attachments are added in the assembly step, and the silhouette reduction applies after assembly. So if a light turbolaser was added during assembly it's fine. Retrofitting one not so much. But the point of deceptive advertising is it "really is" silhouette 4 except in a few technical details according to archaic standards.

Would it help if enc went with the archaic standards (smaller silhouette).

Let's change deceptive advertising to reduce crew and passengers by half (round up). Determine cargo as if airspeeder were one silhouette smaller. After final assembly reduce listed silhouette by 1. And use the previously described fluff text

Also Airspeeders can receive larger project x3 because of

https://star-wars-rpg-ffg.fandom.com/wiki/HA-5_Aerial_Retreat

And land speeders and airspeeders have 2 passengers (it may say silhouette but that was from before finalization of larger project and elegant design)

@salamar_dree can you do the other 2 laat's (infantry and speeder) with the above revision to airspeeder frames.

@EliasWindrider

I can work up the /i.

Do you have a book that has the other one?

38 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

I can work up the /i.

Do you have a book that has the other one?

After having looked I don't think there are game stats for the other one... I think you were going off of wookieepedia on pages 22-23 of this thread

Ah, that one. Okay!

LAAT/i

Sil 3, Speed 4, Handling -1, Def 1/1, Armor 3, HTT 20, SST 15

Sensor Range: Medium

Crew: 6 + one deactivated medical droid in storage

Encumbrance Capacity: 30.
Vehicle Complement: Four speeder bikes.
Passenger Capacity: 30 clone troopers with full combat gear.
Customization Hard Points: 2
Weapons: 9

Airspeeder Frame (10+1 HP, Larger Scope ×2, Deceptive Advertising, Extra HP, Reinforced Construction, Integrated Improvement [Double Crew], Officer's Quarters ×4 [+4 crew], Passenger Quarters ×3; Crew 2+4, Passengers [(4+6)×2]+10, Enc 5+30 [but the 5 could be the droid], HTT 15+1+4)

Single Ion Coil (-2 HP, Spd 1+3, SST 8+4+3, Increase Speed ×3, Increase SST by Sil ×1, Fine-tuned Circuits ×3, Enhanced Power to Deflectors)

Transport Hull (+1 HP, Armor 1+2, Handling -2+1, Armor ×2, Handling+1 ×1, Double Pass Cap ×1, Cargo Pod ×1, Extra HP, Integrated Systems [Reinforced Frame])

Assembly (+1 HP, Extra HP)

Passenger Berth (-2 HP, +10 Pass)
Sensors (-1 HP)
Bike Rack ×1 (-1 HP, Sil 4÷2 =2 bikes, +1 bike mods ×2)
Reinforced Frame (0 HP)
Weapons 9 (-9 HP)
Custom HP 2 (-2 HP)

HP 13-17 = -4 HP!

An excessive amount of Advantage is needes on the Frame for Crew/Passengers, and it still needs to devote 2 HP to Passenger Berths.

If Deceptive Advertising does not affect crew or passengers:

Base Crew 1, Passengers 2. Each doubled twice = Crew 4, Passengers 8. Integrated Improvement (double Passengers) = Passengers 16. Officers Quarters ×1 (+1 Crew) × = Crew 5. Officers Quarters ×1 (+1 Crew/-1 Passenger) = Crew 6, Passengers 15. Then with the mod from the Transport Hull, Passengers 30. (No Passenger Berths needed.)

Even then, this build needs 15 HP (but I can only score 13 for the best build).

Unless Integrated Systems can be taken more than once... but then it would be needed 3 times (or 4 if Deceptive Advertising reduces Crew/Passengers).

The killer is that this vehicle has 9 weapon systems! It puts most starships to shame!

The LAAT/v is a variant if the /c .

Dropping the Docking Clamp (3 HP) for 4 Bike Racks (4 HP) and a Passenger Berth (2 HP) could be covered with an Integrated System (Passenger Berth) and +1 HP.

The fact that it doesn't have an excessive amount of weapons makes it pretty easy to build.

1 hour ago, salamar_dree said:

LAAT/i

Sil 3, Speed 4, Handling -1, Def 1/1, Armor 3, HTT 20, SST 15

Sensor Range: Medium

Crew: 6 + one deactivated medical droid in storage

Encumbrance Capacity: 30.
Vehicle Complement: Four speeder bikes.
Passenger Capacity: 30 clone troopers with full combat gear.
Customization Hard Points: 2
Weapons: 9

Airspeeder Frame (10+1 HP, Larger Scope ×2, Deceptive Advertising, Extra HP, Reinforced Construction, Integrated Improvement [Double Crew], Officer's Quarters ×4 [+4 crew], Passenger Quarters ×3; Crew 2+4, Passengers [(4+6)×2]+10, Enc 5+30 [but the 5 could be the droid], HTT 15+1+4)

Single Ion Coil (-2 HP, Spd 1+3, SST 8+4+3, Increase Speed ×3, Increase SST by Sil ×1, Fine-tuned Circuits ×3, Enhanced Power to Deflectors)

Transport Hull (+1 HP, Armor 1+2, Handling -2+1, Armor ×2, Handling+1 ×1, Double Pass Cap ×1, Cargo Pod ×1, Extra HP, Integrated Systems [Reinforced Frame])

Assembly (+1 HP, Extra HP)

Passenger Berth (-2 HP, +10 Pass)
Sensors (-1 HP)
Bike Rack ×1 (-1 HP, Sil 4÷2 =2 bikes, +1 bike mods ×2)
Reinforced Frame (0 HP)
Weapons 9 (-9 HP)
Custom HP 2 (-2 HP)

HP 13-17 = -4 HP!

An excessive amount of Advantage is needes on the Frame for Crew/Passengers, and it still needs to devote 2 HP to Passenger Berths.

If Deceptive Advertising does not affect crew or passengers:

Base Crew 1, Passengers 2. Each doubled twice = Crew 4, Passengers 8. Integrated Improvement (double Passengers) = Passengers 16. Officers Quarters ×1 (+1 Crew) × = Crew 5. Officers Quarters ×1 (+1 Crew/-1 Passenger) = Crew 6, Passengers 15. Then with the mod from the Transport Hull, Passengers 30. (No Passenger Berths needed.)

Even then, this build needs 15 HP (but I can only score 13 for the best build).

Unless Integrated Systems can be taken more than once... but then it would be needed 3 times (or 4 if Deceptive Advertising reduces Crew/Passengers).

The killer is that this vehicle has 9 weapon systems! It puts most starships to shame!

I'll remove passenger & crew reductions from deceptive advertising, and allow integrated improvements be taken 3 times on air speeders. What if airspeeders had 3 passengers by default (like your typical real world sedan)?

and since cargo is one sil smaller I think 1 cargo pod would be 10 enc rather than 3 so you would need 3 cargo pods.

So should I do hp = 4 + 2xsil=12 or 2+3xsil=14... smaller number

4+2xsil

Can you try the at-te (for use with laat/c)

And https://star-wars-rpg-ffg.fandom.com/wiki/HA-5_Aerial_Retreat with these changes?

Btw you need life support (at least 1) cause the thing can go in space (just no hyperdrive)

So should I go larger

2+3xsil hp?

@EliasWindrider

Yes, 3 Passenger default sounds good!

I don't know if Integrated Improvements needs to be available three times (maybe twice?).

The LAAT/i is definitely an outlier. The other LAAT variants are more doable, as they don't have so many weapons.

I apologize about the Cargo Pod mistake (I wasn't applying the extra reduction).

I didn't think about the Life Support because they didn't give them consumables. So you are definitely right. 1 HP for Life Support should be added.

I think 4+(Sil×2) is better. This makes the Airspeeder slightly worse than the Starfighter at Sil 3+ (though the same at Sil 2).

11 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

Yes, 3 Passenger default sounds good!

I don't know if Integrated Improvements needs to be available three times (maybe twice?).

The LAAT/i is definitely an outlier. The other LAAT variants are more doable, as they don't have so many weapons.

I apologize about the Cargo Pod mistake (I wasn't applying the extra reduction).

I didn't think about the Life Support because they didn't give them consumables. So you are definitely right. 1 HP for Life Support should be added.

I think 4+(Sil×2) is better. This makes the Airspeeder slightly worse than the Starfighter at Sil 3+ (though the same at Sil 2).

What about 1+3xSil? A point less than a starfighter at all silhouettes. At sil 4 it's 13 hp + 3 for crafting = 16 which is the 15 you said it needed +1 for consumables. Saves a second triumph for a second integrated system.. yeah you can have more than 1.

Or maybe just 3xSil and require the second integrated systems for the build? That would also distinguish land speeders from air speeders, and having only 3 hp would explain why you don't see many sil 1 air speeders. Can you revise the laat/I and laat/c posts with airspeeder being able to take 2x integrated improvements, having 3x silhouette hp and deceptive advertising only decreasing enc by 1 sil, decreasing crew by half, and the final reduced silhouette after construction?

The laat/i should be able to get the passengers and crew exactly by using 1 passengers quarters to crease passengers by 1 to 4, 1 integrated improvements to increase the passengers to 8, and either using deceptive advertising before larger scope (because you round up) crew from 0.5 to 1 or using one integrated improvements to increase the crew to counter the halving if deceptive advertising was applied after the 2x larger scope, which puts you at 4 crew and 32 passengers, then using officer's quarters to transfer 2 passengers to crew.

The laat/c would be use officer quarters first to get 3 crew & 1 passenger then 2x larger scope for 12 crew & 4 passengers, 2x integrated improvements => 6 crew & 2 passengers, deceptive advertising => 3 crew & 2 passengers.

The HA-5 aerial retreat has 16 crew and 16 passengers, larger scope x3 yields 8 crew & 24 passengers then transfer 8 passengers to crew via officers quarters

Maybe also try the airspeeder on the cover of stay on target (which also needs deceptive advertising from a narrative standpoint)

AT-TE

Sil 4, Spd 1, Handling -2, Def 0, Armor 4
HTT 40, SST 35

Crew 8, Passengers 20, Enc 40

Weapons 5, Custom HP 2

Walker Frame (HP 10+1, HTT 15+1+24, Enc 5+, Crew 1+1+2+4, Pass 0+; Larger Scope, Reinforced Construction, Extra HP, Passenger Quarters ×5, Integrated Improvement [Pass])

Single Ion Coil (-2 HP, Spd 1, SST 8+12+3+12; Incr SST by 4 ×3, Fine-Tuned Circuits ×3)

Gunship Hull (+8 HP, Armor 3+1, Handling -2; Armor Increase, Add 4 HP & double crew ×2)

Assembly (+1 HP, Integrated Systems [Reinforced Frame ×1])

Mothership Docking Clamp (0 HP)

Auxillary Generator ×3 (-6 HP)
Reinforced Frame ×6 total (-10 HP)

Weapons ×5, Custom HP ×2 (-7 HP)

Needs 5 more HP, or more options to increase HTT and SST.

However, the LAAT/i might work better with the Gunship Hull, as it could increase the HP and Crew with mods (potentially 8 more HP).

Whichs means you might not need to tweak things as much. You might even be able to leave the Airspeeder HP at 2+(Sil×2).

@EliasWindrider

LAAT/i (using Gunship)

Using Crew 1, Passengers 3 for Airspeeder (no other mods). Using the Crew/Passenger reduction for Deceptive Advertising.

Airspeeder Frame (10 HP, HTT 15+1+4, Reinforced Construction, Larger Scope ×2, Deceptive Advertising, Crew 2+1+3, Passengers 6+4+10+10, Cargo 5+30; Officer's Quarters [+1 Crew], Passenger Quarters ×2 [+4], Integrated Improvement [Double Passengers]

Single Ion Coil (-2 HP, Spd 1+3, SST 8+4+3, Increase Speed ×3, Increase SST by Sil ×1, Fine-tuned Circuits ×3, Enhanced Power to Deflectors)

Gunship Hull (+8 HP, Armor 3, Handling -2+1, Add Sil HP & Double Crew ×2, Cargo Pods ×3, Integrated Systems [Reinforced Frame])

Assembly (+1 HP, Extra HP)

Passenger Bay (-3 HP, +10 Pass)
Sensors (-1 HP)
Life Support (-1 HP)
Bike Rack ×1 (-1 HP, Sil 4÷2 =2 bikes, +1 bike mods ×2)
Reinforced Frame (0 HP)
Weapons 9 (-9 HP)
Custom HP 2 (-2 HP)

It was my fault for not using the Gunship Hull or the Officers/Passengers Quarters correctly.

No need to change the Airspeeder HP, and Deceptive Advertising can halve crew/passengers, and Cargo is applied as the final Silhouette. However, I had to treat it as Sil 4 for Passengers.

Only used 1 Integrated Systems and 1 Extra HP.

42 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

LAAT/i (using Gunship)

Using Crew 1, Passengers 3 for Airspeeder (no other mods). Using the Crew/Passenger reduction for Deceptive Advertising.

Airspeeder Frame (10 HP, HTT 15+1+4, Reinforced Construction, Larger Scope ×2, Deceptive Advertising, Crew 2+1+3, Passengers 6+4+10+10, Cargo 5+30; Officer's Quarters [+1 Crew], Passenger Quarters ×2 [+4], Integrated Improvement [Double Passengers]

Single Ion Coil (-2 HP, Spd 1+3, SST 8+4+3, Increase Speed ×3, Increase SST by Sil ×1, Fine-tuned Circuits ×3, Enhanced Power to Deflectors)

Gunship Hull (+8 HP, Armor 3, Handling -2+1, Add Sil HP & Double Crew ×2, Cargo Pods ×3, Integrated Systems [Reinforced Frame])

Assembly (+1 HP, Extra HP)

Passenger Bay (-3 HP, +10 Pass)
Sensors (-1 HP)
Life Support (-1 HP)
Bike Rack ×1 (-1 HP, Sil 4÷2 =2 bikes, +1 bike mods ×2)
Reinforced Frame (0 HP)
Weapons 9 (-9 HP)
Custom HP 2 (-2 HP)

It was my fault for not using the Gunship Hull or the Officers/Passengers Quarters correctly.

No need to change the Airspeeder HP, and Deceptive Advertising can halve crew/passengers, and Cargo is applied as the final Silhouette. However, I had to treat it as Sil 4 for Passengers.

Only used 1 Integrated Systems and 1 Extra HP.

you used 22 hp (2 passenger bays cost 6 hp) but you can get to 6 crew & 30 passengers from just the frame with 1 use of integrated improvements, 2 are needed if deceptive advertising halves the passengers. So 16 hp.

Ah but you had to halve the crew with integrated improvements.

1x4x4/4=4 crew

3x4/2x2=12 passengers

6 crew 10 passengers +2x10 passengers for 6 hp = 30 passengers

10+8 = 18 hp

I don't think it works if passengers are halved... if we don't halve passengers as part of deceptive advertising then it works.

But if we only add 4 through the gunship

Then we have 14 hp...

1x4x2/2=4 crew

(3+1)x4/2(deceptive)x4(integrated improvements) =32 passengers

Officer quarters => 6, 30 passengers

And need 16 hp, and it's easy to add 2 hp.

So doable but it's confusing.