17 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Still making things and I ran into something. I noticed Larger Scope can only be taken once, but Special Modifications has 2 Landspeeders that are Sil 4 (2 Larger Scope) and a Airspeeder that is Sil 5 (3 Larger Scope). Unless I'm missing something somewhere.

Certain frames allow larger scope to be taken more than once, I've barely touched on airspeeders and have done almost nothing with land speeders. Not planning on supporting the single sil 5 air speeder.

2 hours ago, Kirdan Kenobi said:

Hey there,

I've been part of this community since the early days of Edge, and though I haven't posted anything for a long time, I've still lurked around here from time to time, and I've had my eye on this project. I have a love-hate relationship with the crafting rules as a whole, and I appreciate what you're doing. I thought I would contribute some thoughts.

1) Since you're using the VSL mechanic and Silhouette for most things, why not use it for frame templates as well? Unless I'm missing something, under the existing rules, using Elegant Design to make a Silhouette 4 Patrol Ship/Boat with the Gun Ship Hull costs about twice as much as using Larger Scope to make a Silhouette 5 Transport (Frame) with the Gunship Hull. This doesn't really make any sense, because the cost of the frame should largely reflect the size of the vehicle (I realize that Hull and Final Assembly do this, but this would be true of frame as well), yet is unaffected by Silhouette mechanically.

2) Related to the above: do away with Elegant Design and Larger Scope. A vehicle would be designed from the outset to be a certain size, and it doesn't make much sense for the vehicle's size to be changed as a kind of improvement in the midst of construction. Vehicles that are variable in size (likely anything but speeder bikes) could have a Silhouette Range that represents the available silhouettes that can be chosen for that frame. Crew Requirements, Passenger Capacity, and Encumbrance Capacity for all templates would need to be adjusted to be variable based on size.

3) The Single Ion Coil and Electron Baffled Engine seem too good. The former is so cheap in terms of both cost and hard points that if you allow swapping engines, there's not much reason not to do this on a party landspeeder, provided you've got someone good at mechanics. The latter Engine, though it costs 4 HP, seems like to obvious choice for any ship that is likely to see combat. Though it's more expensive in hard points, it's cheap in credits, but more importantly, when fully modded it can provide up to Speed 6, 4 Aft Defense, and 6xSil System Strain Threshold. I'd pick it for basically any kind of starship, and that should be a warning sign.

4) Rename either the Transport frame or the Transport hull. Having the same name for two different things has a lot of potential for confusion. Rename the Patrol Ship frame to Patrol Craft. Not only would this be a more generic term for starships of this role of varying sizes, but it also would help avoid confusion due the fact that the Patrol Ship is the only frame with the word 'ship' in its name, whereas 4 out of the 7 hull templates use the word 'ship.'

5) It seems like the modular pod system rules are still in the works, but I would recommend adding more clarification as to the distinction between the Modular Pod Docking Clamp and the Mothership Docking clamp. I had to read that section at least three times before I understood the difference.

6) Though the Enhanced Prisoner Lockup attachment already allows for this, I think it would be worthwhile to add an option for adding something comparable during ship construction. It could be done several different ways, but one idea I had was to allow the conversion of Silhouette # of Passenger Capacity into secure holding for that number of prisoners at the cost of 1 hp (0 HP for the patrol ship frame or the gunship or ship of the line hull, but only once) and an appropriate number of credits. Such an attachment could have modifications to allow for additional conversion, probably at the rate of 1 passenger to prisoner per mod.

Hope you find something I suggested helpful.

I'll edit this post to address additional points as I have time.

For now.

Credit costs is the last thing I'm going to fiddle with (at least a year off)

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Certain frames allow larger scope to be taken more than once, I've barely touched on airspeeders and have done almost nothing with land speeders. Not planning on supporting the single sil 5 air speede  r.

LOL. Don't blame you for the airspeeder, not everything will fit perfect. Besides, if a player has a really good thought for something like that..... 🤨 , the GM could always add handwavium.

As for the others.....I..AM blind apparently. The airspeeder already has it listed. DOHT!

Thanks.

12 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Besides, if a player has a really good thought for something like that..... 🤨 , the GM could always add handwavium  ..           

Ah, GM Handwavium... My favorite element on the periodic table. 😁

14 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

....

Credit costs is the last thing I'm going to fiddle with (at least a year off)

I'm not promising anything at this time, but if I came up with simple formulae for implementing my first and/or second suggestions, would you consider implementing them?

11 hours ago, Kirdan Kenobi said:

I'm not promising anything at this time, but if I came up with simple formulae for implementing my first and/or second suggestions, would you consider implementing them?

1) yes

2) the/a goal is minimum neccessary departure from RAW and elegant design and larger scope are part of that

3) single ion coil doesn't provide defense (can be overcome by hull mods, but it starts behind the curve) and it provides very little sst. Electron baffled engine if I recall correctly does not provide much strain, speed is limited by silhouette and sil 3 caps out at 5 unless you have the race ship hull which iirc costs a hp, given that hp is already strongly dependent on silhouette... well any ship using an electron baffeled engine to get up to speed 6 is going to have a severe shortage of hp. The 1 exception to that hp shortage for speed 6 with electron baffeled engine being an elegant designed patrol ship with a race ship hull. So I think that is a non issue. Ion turbines fully modded for speed with a few enhanced output crafting upgrades is in most cases the better option, having much better strain for sil 4+ and more balanced shields.

4) I went over various potential names instead of transport and couldn't think of any that were more or as appropriate, suggestions for a replacement name would be appreciated. Craft implies a small vessel, sil4 or smaller judging by lando's line in rotj

5) if you have clearer wording on the modular pod rules I'm open to suggestions

6) possible, but I'd have to really look into it in detail before rendering a verdict, hp limits and costing are a major balancing factor.

Do you have an suggestion on where I should start for making ground (tracked/wheeled) vehicle rules? There is not a lot of info to go on so should I just make them up completely?

9 hours ago, BannerGuard said:

Do you have an suggestion on where I should start for making ground (tracked/wheeled) vehicle rules? There is not a lot of info to go on so should I just make them up completely?

Start with walkers... but the walker rules are that great yet.

Anything else to help with this Elias?

4 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Anything else to help with this Elias?

Assuming that we're talking about Banneegaurd's desire to make ground vehicle rules... Use the current rules to build a bunch of walkers in the most efficient way, see what's wrong (the biggest issue) and fix that in the simplest/most general/not special case way. Iterate, knocking off problems. Expect to need a new legs attachment.

I haven't worked on this in a few weeks... life has been getting in the way

So I started with the AT-RT which fits perfectly with the rules, except I can't find a way to remove the armor form the hull.

As Banner Guard mentioned, there is no way currently to reduce Armor rating to 0.

Perhaps reduce Basic Frame to Armor 0 and/or add a negative on the chart for Faulty Plating (Reduce Armor rating by 1) or some such?

10 minutes ago, Jareth Valar said:

As Banner Guard mentioned, there is no way currently to reduce Armor rating to 0.

Perhaps reduce Basic Frame to Armor 0 and/or add a negative on the chart for Faulty Plating (Reduce Armor rating by 1) or some such?

I have to think about that, but I could use more data (other walkers)

AT_RT's are speed three so currently you have to use the race hull. Also do custom weapons like the AT-TE's main cannon only take one hard point?

All Terrain Reconnaissance Transport (AT-RT, Savage Spirits pg. 56)
Crew: 1, Passengers: 0, Enc: 7, H:4, SS:8, Spd: 3, Def: 1/0, A:0, Sensors: Medium, Hand: +1, HP: 2, Wpns: 1

Walker Frame: Elegant design = 5 hull, 6 hp, 1 crew, 0 passengers, extra HP=HP 7

Ion Turbine Engine: 3 hp, speed 1; 5 SST; Def 1/0/0/0; strain threshold = 7 SST, 1 speed mod = speed 2; crafting upgrade enhanced output = speed 3, fine tuned circuits = 8 SST

Race hull: 3 hp left; 1 armor, +1 handling, crafting upgrade 1x cargo pod => 8 enc., extra hard point = HP 4 (Race Hull was needed due to the restriction on the Walker Legs: Otherwise Basic Hull works with +1 hand mod, crafting upgrade maneuvering fins x1 and cargo pods x1)

1 weapon=> 3 hp left

Sensors HP=2 crafting upgrade sensors to Medium

Final

All Terrain Reconnaissance Transport (AT-RT, Savage Spirits pg. 56)
Crew: 1, Passengers: 0, Enc: 8, H:5, SS:8, Spd: 3, Def: 1/0, A:1, Sensors: Medium, Hand: +1, HP: 2, Wpns: 1

1 higher Hull, 1 higher Enc and 1 higher Armor

EDIT: Forgot sensors

All Terrain Scout Transport (AT-ST, AoR Core pg. 265)
Crew: 2, Passengers: 0, Enc: 18, H:15, SS:12, Spd: 2, Def: 0/0, A:3, Sensors: Short, Hand: +0, HP: 1, Wpns: 3

Walker Frame: 10 hull, 8 hp, 1 crew, 0 passengers; Crafting Upgrades: Integrated Improvements=Crew 2, Reinforced Construction x2=Hull 12, Extra HP - HP=9

Single Ion Coil: 2 HP, HP=7, Speed 1, 6 SST, Def 0/0/0/0, SST mod x2 - SST=12, 1 Speed mod - Speed=2

Basic Hull: HP=7; 1 Armor, -2 Handling, Armor mods x2 - Armor=3, Handling mod - Handling=-1, Crafting Upgrades: 1x Cargo Pod - Enc.=15, Maneuvering Fins x1 - Handling=0

3 Weapons HP=4

Sensors HP=3

Reinforced Frame HP=1, Hull=15

All Terrain Scout Transport (AT-ST)
Crew: 2, Passengers: 0, Enc: 15, H:15, SS:12, Spd: 2, Def: 0/0, A:3, Sensors: Short, Hand: +0, HP: 1, Wpns: 3

3 lower Enc. Another application of Cargo Pods would have raised it to 25

20 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I have to think about that, but I could use more data (other walkers)

Slowly working my way through the walkers, but <below> are the ones on the Index that have Armor 0. Also most of the swoops and speeder bikes also have Armor 0. An easy option for the bikes would be reduce Armor by 1 in the Frame description. Just a thought.

Baktoid Versatile-Athletic "Zalaaca" Walker

All Terrain Reconnaissance Transport (AT-RT)

AT-HCT

Hunchback Construction Strider

I will complete them as I can.

19 hours ago, BannerGuard said:

AT_RT's are speed three so currently you have to use the race hull. Also do custom weapons like the AT-TE's main cannon only take one hard point?

I'd say yes they take 1 hp.

4 hours ago, Jareth Valar said:

Slowly working my way through the walkers, but <below> are the ones on the Index that have Armor 0. Also most of the swoops and speeder bikes also have Armor 0. An easy option for the bikes would be reduce Armor by 1 in the Frame description. Just a thought.

Baktoid Versatile-Athletic "Zalaaca" Walker

All Terrain Reconnaissance Transport (AT-RT)

AT-HCT

Hunchback Construction Strider

I will complete them as I can.

Seems like the speeder bike and Walker frames should have 0 armor as a base.

2 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Seems like the speeder bike and Walker frames should have 0 armor as a base.

Given that approximately 95% of the swoops and speeder bikes have 0 armor, 50% or more of the air speeders and land speeders/ground craft and about 25% of the walkers have Armor of 0, I'd suggest Speeder Bike, Land Speeder, Air Speeder and Walker Frames have a clause saying something like "Vehicles built on this frame reduce the Armor provided by attaching a Hull by 1." or something of that nature. Or have the Basic Frame start with Armor 0, though I imagine that might throw off several other builds but with the ability to mod the Armor rating up perhaps give it one more mod if you do reduce it. That way there nothing should have to change?

On 6/5/2019 at 3:05 AM, Jareth Valar said:

All Terrain Reconnaissance Transport (AT-RT, Savage Spirits pg. 56)
Crew: 1, Passengers: 0, Enc: 7, H:4, SS:8, Spd: 3, Def: 1/0, A:0, Sensors: Medium, Hand: +1, HP: 2, Wpns: 1

Walker Frame: Elegant design = 5 hull, 6 hp, 1 crew, 0 passengers

Ion Turbine Engine: 3 hp, speed 1; 5 SST; Def 1/0/0/0; strain threshold = 7 SST, 1 speed mod = speed 2; crafting upgrade enhanced output = speed 3, fine tuned circuits = 8 SST, extra HP=HP 4

Race hull: 3 hp left; 1 armor, +1 handling, crafting upgrade 1x cargo pod => 8 enc., extra hard point = HP 4 (Race Hull was needed due to the restriction on the Walker Legs: Otherwise Basic Hull works with +1 hand mod, crafting upgrade maneuvering fins x1 and cargo pods x1)

1 weapon=> 3 hp left

Sensors HP=2 crafting upgrade sensors to Medium

Final

All Terrain Reconnaissance Transport (AT-RT, Savage Spirits pg. 56)
Crew: 1, Passengers: 0, Enc: 8, H:5, SS:8, Spd: 3, Def: 1/0, A:1, Sensors: Medium, Hand: +1, HP: 2, Wpns: 1

1 higher Hull, 1 higher Enc and 1 higher Armor

EDIT: Forgot sensors

And your two hp shy.

25 minutes ago, BannerGuard said:

And your two hp shy.

???

Base HP of 6 (2+(sil of 2 x2))from Walker

Engine costs 3 HP=3

Extra HP from engine crafting mod. HP=4

Race Hull costs 1 HP=3

Extra HP from crafting mod. HP=4

(or basic hull costs nothing and doesn't need extra HP)

1 weapon costs 1 HP=3

Sensors costs 1 HP=2

Base AT-RT has 2 HP left.

Did I miss something somewhere?

no you are right my bad.

Also the AT-AT is also most as tank as a CR 90 so... I gonna check that one out.

An AT-AT has 4 armor and 40 HT you can get to 19 after crafting the frame (Reinforced Construction x4 +15) but the still leaves you 21 HT short. 21/4 is about 5 reinforced frames and we are out of hard points because 5 reinforced frames take two HP each =10 so ten hp total max possible hp is twelve. That leaves us two hp left and we still need 4 for the weapons (and that is not counting the bike racks).