Looking at all of this for my own Engineer in a similar campaign.

One thing that has always bugged me is how crafting a Speeder Bike vs crafting a Land Speeder works. Rules as written in both systems building a speeder bike is only 250 credits easier than building an equivalent land speeder. I've always seen the Speeder Bike is having a role for craters more in line with the 'first vehicle' somebody interested in vehicle crafting will make. The description in the book even includes it being often made of spare parts. (Although I am certain many will try to make it out of far better)

Ultimately though, the issue is that building a speeder bike will almost always seem a mechanically worse choice than building a land speeder, especially when you factor in that the party likely needs transport for everyone, not just one (or potentially two) party members.

To this end, and after looking through both the FO book and the Nubian design collective, I'd like to suggest the following adjustments / determinations for the Speeder Bike:

Customization Hard Points: 2 + Silhouette
Special: The Speeder Bike frame counts as one lower Silhouette for any VSL calculations (So a Silhouette 2 would only have the VSL of a Silhouette 1) in addition, the crafting time of the engine and hull both take 50% long as they are listed as taking. The Speeder Bike is unable to take any Dedicated Bays and Berths.

The above changes should allow Speeder Bikes to be more quickly built, and give them a place in crafting that makes them a more interesting choice for crafting, especially when time is a more precious commodity. I was considering giving it a Special rule similar to the patrol boat (+1 max speed) but after looking through most of the rules, it seems most land vehicles rarely reach beyond speed 3-4 which is already well within the speed settings included for Sil 2 vehicles which most speeder bikes fall under.

Gozanti C-ROC

Transport Frame/Transport Hull

27 base hp +2 extra hp + Integrated Systems (Reinforced Frame) ×2

3 hp Ion Turbine Engine
7 hp Cargo
1 hp Hyperdrive
0 hp Navicomputer
1 hp Life Support
4 hp Reinforced Frame ×2 (in addition to the free one from Integrated Systems)
1 hp Sensors
6 hp Weapons
6 hp Customization HP

Shields will be either 2/2/2/1 or 3/2/2/2 instead of the listed 3/2/2/1. Close enough to call good.

The C-ROC has a Handling of -3. None of the Hulls allow a Handling worse than -2.

Otherwise, the rules support this ship as well!

👍

39 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

Yeah, I'm not sure if you can or can't take the Oversized Weapon Mount Attachment more than once.

I like your idea. Maybe call it "Integrated Oversize Weapon" to distinguish it from the Attachment.

Note: I did include the -1 Handling and -4 SS for each O.W.M. in my calculations.

I'm going to say "this replaces the attachment listed in dangerous covenants" so that they can't stack them.

That is an excellent idea.

You can use that version for the Gunship Hull as well, to streamline it.

😁

On 3/25/2019 at 9:44 PM, Mon_Cal_Professor said:

Looking at all of this for my own Engineer in a similar campaign.

One thing that has always bugged me is how crafting a Speeder Bike vs crafting a Land Speeder works. Rules as written in both systems building a speeder bike is only 250 credits easier than building an equivalent land speeder. I've always seen the Speeder Bike is having a role for craters more in line with the 'first vehicle' somebody interested in vehicle crafting will make. The description in the book even includes it being often made of spare parts. (Although I am certain many will try to make it out of far better)

Ultimately though, the issue is that building a speeder bike will almost always seem a mechanically worse choice than building a land speeder, especially when you factor in that the party likely needs transport for everyone, not just one (or potentially two) party members.

To this end, and after looking through both the FO book and the Nubian design collective, I'd like to suggest the following adjustments / determinations for the Speeder Bike:

Customization Hard Points: 2 + Silhouette
Special: The Speeder Bike frame counts as one lower Silhouette for any VSL calculations (So a Silhouette 2 would only have the VSL of a Silhouette 1) in addition, the crafting time of the engine and hull both take 50% long as they are listed as taking. The Speeder Bike is unable to take any Dedicated Bays and Berths.

The above changes should allow Speeder Bikes to be more quickly built, and give them a place in crafting that makes them a more interesting choice for crafting, especially when time is a more precious commodity. I was considering giving it a Special rule similar to the patrol boat (+1 max speed) but after looking through most of the rules, it seems most land vehicles rarely reach beyond speed 3-4 which is already well within the speed settings included for Sil 2 vehicles which most speeder bikes fall under.

Speeder bikes are something that I haven't spent a whole lot of time on the crafting rules for. A completely tricked out speeder bike could use about 9 hp, assuming 3 from crafting and 1 integrated systems, would mean a sil 2 speeder bike should have 5 hp, so vsl or sil+3... sil +3 for elegant design would mean 4 hp for a sil 1 speeder bike, 2 for ion coil and 2 for folding design for a no frills vehicle that can be stored as a 5 enc crate seems pretty reasonable to me.

@EliasWindrider

Your post reminded me of this:

The Dart Speeder is Sil 2 with the Folding Frame.

In the games I'm playing in, we've decided that when folded (Sil 1), it takes up 10 Enc.

Does that sound good to you?

Regarding Handling:

I found a Sil 3 Speeder with -3

1 Sil 4 Landspeeder with -3

1 Sil 4 Landspeeder with -4

AT-AT is -3

26 Starships with either -3 or -4

(And one ship with -5)

13 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

Your post reminded me of this:

The Dart Speeder is Sil 2 with the Folding Frame.

In the games I'm playing in, we've decided that when folded (Sil 1), it takes up 10 Enc.

Does that sound good to you?

Sil 1 is kind of odd not sure whether it should use a hanger or enc, but if enc somewhere between 10 and 20. Probably not more than 15

12 hours ago, salamar_dree said:

Regarding Handling:

I found a Sil 3 Speeder with -3

1 Sil 4 Landspeeder with -3

1 Sil 4 Landspeeder with -4

AT-AT is -3

26 Starships with either -3 or -4

(And one ship with -5)

I think there should be a spend threat to decrease handling, which makes the shipwright talent where you gain equal amounts of threat and advantage a likely way that could happen.

So looking at various speeder bikes in the books we can see a few examples of 'classic' speeder bikes:
[All at Sil 2]

Aratech 74-Z (Edge of Empire Core)
Speed 3, Handling +1, HT 2, SS 4

Mobquet Flare-S Swoop (Edge of Empire Core)
Speed 3, Handling +2, HT 2, SS 3

Nebulon-Q Racing Swoop (Stay on Target)
Speed 3, Handling +2, HT 3, SS 2

Guardian E2 Escape Speeder: (Dangerous Covenants)
Speed 2, Handling 0, HT 2, SS 3

Starhawk Speeder Bike (Fly Casual)
Speed 3, Handling 0, HT 3, SS 3

As you can see from all of this, Speeder Bikes are, in general, incredibly fragile vehicles, with nothing in the way of Armor, Defense, or Hull / Strain.
Assuming crafting success with only 2 net advantage, and one mod, using 3 + Sil HP, the current rules in the collective can give a few vehicles such as

Custom Fast:
Speeder Bike [Extra Hard Point], Single Ion Coil [Enhanced Output, 1 increase speed by 1 Mod], Race Ship [Maneuvering Fins, 1 increase System strain by 1 Mod], Assembly [Extra Hard Point]
Speed: 3, Handling: +2, HT: 1, SS 3, Armor 1, HP: 4

Custom Cheap:
Speeder Bike [ 2x Reinforced Construction], Single Ion Coil [Enhanced Output, 1 increase speed by 1 Mod], Basic [Maneuvering Fins, 1 increase handling by 1 Mod], Assembly [Under Budget
Speed: 3, Handling: 0 , HT: 4, SS: 4, Armor 1, HP: 3

So even accounting for very low rolls, and only one modifications one is already matching most published speeder bikes. Given that these are some of the easiest crafting checks you can do on vehicles it's very likely a character can put out something even more amazing than these.

Honestly, the more I look at it, the more the rules kind of break down on the speeder bike side, just because how limited most of the ones in published materials are. Perhaps give Speeder Bikes the ability to spend Advantage to reduce the crafting time down, as a tempting alternative to further upgrades? Something like Special: Speeder Bikes may spend advantages to reduce the crafting time by 2 hours per Advantage spent on each core component. This still can not reduce the crafting time below 1 hour.

5 hours ago, Mon_Cal_Professor said:

So looking at various speeder bikes in the books we can see a few examples of 'classic' speeder bikes:
[All at Sil 2]

Aratech 74-Z (Edge of Empire Core)
Speed 3, Handling +1, HT 2, SS 4

Mobquet Flare-S Swoop (Edge of Empire Core)
Speed 3, Handling +2, HT 2, SS 3

Nebulon-Q Racing Swoop (Stay on Target)
Speed 3, Handling +2, HT 3, SS 2

Guardian E2 Escape Speeder: (Dangerous Covenants)
Speed 2, Handling 0, HT 2, SS 3

Starhawk Speeder Bike (Fly Casual)
Speed 3, Handling 0, HT 3, SS 3

As you can see from all of this, Speeder Bikes are, in general, incredibly fragile vehicles, with nothing in the way of Armor, Defense, or Hull / Strain.
Assuming crafting success with only 2 net advantage, and one mod, using 3 + Sil HP, the current rules in the collective can give a few vehicles such as

Custom Fast:
Speeder Bike [Extra Hard Point], Single Ion Coil [Enhanced Output, 1 increase speed by 1 Mod], Race Ship [Maneuvering Fins, 1 increase System strain by 1 Mod], Assembly [Extra Hard Point]
Speed: 3, Handling: +2, HT: 1, SS 3, Armor 1, HP: 4

Custom Cheap:
Speeder Bike [ 2x Reinforced Construction], Single Ion Coil [Enhanced Output, 1 increase speed by 1 Mod], Basic [Maneuvering Fins, 1 increase handling by 1 Mod], Assembly [Under Budget
Speed: 3, Handling: 0 , HT: 4, SS: 4, Armor 1, HP: 3

So even accounting for very low rolls, and only one modifications one is already matching most published speeder bikes. Given that these are some of the easiest crafting checks you can do on vehicles it's very likely a character can put out something even more amazing than these.

Honestly, the more I look at it, the more the rules kind of break down on the speeder bike side, just because how limited most of the ones in published materials are. Perhaps give Speeder Bikes the ability to spend Advantage to reduce the crafting time down, as a tempting alternative to further upgrades? Something like Special: Speeder Bikes may spend advantages to reduce the crafting time by 2 hours per Advantage spent on each core component. This still can not reduce the crafting time below 1 hour.

With 3 hp left over I'd expect a weapon and maybe folding design attachment to be added. But... what did you spend the 2 advantage on... I normally would expect that they didn't add more hp to it.

The things I spent on are in the [brackets]. Including the advantages. Is there a better way to style what you spend?

6 hours ago, Mon_Cal_Professor said:

The things I spent on are in the [brackets]. Including the advantages. Is there a better way to style what you spend?

It's clear enough now that you explained it but I missed it when I skimmed your post earlier. Note that some speeder bikes will want high output repulsor coils... the one dooku piloted in aotc obviously had it and there's at least one in the books that has it.

22 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I think there should be a spend threat to decrease handling, which makes the shipwright talent where you gain equal amounts of threat and advantage a likely way that could happen.

There are three ranks of Creative Design in Shipwright.

I would suggest making -1 Handling a 1 Threat (may be selected multiple times) option.

Looking at the Speeder Bikes, they seem to have a lot of Customization Hard Points (4 seems common, though I did spot one with 5).

Perhaps the base amount of HP should be lower in anticipation of a crafter selecting the Extra HP options?

1 minute ago, salamar_dree said:

Looking at the Speeder Bikes, they seem to have a lot of Customization Hard Points (4 seems common, though I did spot one with 5).

Perhaps the base amount of HP should be lower in anticipation of a crafter selecting the Extra HP  options?

That's why I was thinking 2 + Sil. Any lower, and you'd run into issues of having issues installing engines on poor crafting checks. (Although with only 1 difficulty base for the speeder bike, that's a pretty poor roll)

That said, a good crafting check can already allow you to blow all speeder bikes out of the water without trying to hard. Already every hull gives at least 1 armor, which is already better than most speeder bikes can possibly match. Honestly, there would have to be some sort of threat to decrease armor to even be able to make something as 'bad' as some of the speeder bikes in the books.

@EliasWindrider

I still think that at least the Bulk Freighter Hull should start with worse Handling, though.

And I feel that there's a missing Hull type. I can't quite articulate what it should be, but it seems that I lean towards the Transport and Scout Hulls a lot more than I should.

Maybe not. Just thinking out loud.

@Mon_Cal_Professor

Yes, most Speeder Bikes seem to have Armor 0 or 1.

Perhaps they need a slightly more stringent Armor cap.

At this point, it would be a lot more work, but these really small craft might need separate crafting tables.

(Elias, don't get mad at me for suggesting this!)

I think the speeder bike can be handled better by treating it with some special rules.

Maybe instead of just VSL, have it's SIL count as 1 lower than it actually is for all crafting purposes, and have any hull chosen for it start with one less armor in exchange for a reduced crafting time. That way there's still benefit to crafting one without making every speeder bike being stronger than anything that can be purchased. (Exception: Maximum speed is based on actual Sil)

Since most speeder bikes only have 2-4 HT / SS

20 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@Mon_Cal_Professor

Yes, most Speeder Bikes seem to have Armor 0 or 1.

Perhaps they need a slightly more stringent Armor cap.

At this point, it would be a lot more work, but these really small craft might need separate crafting tables.

(Elias, don't get mad at me for suggesting this!)

No worries, I'm a pretty chill guy... I'd like to try to tweak the rules related to non starship vehicles before coming up with a separate frame type... I really have sunk much time into them so it's natural that they're comparatively deficient right now.

30 minutes ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

I still think that at least the Bulk Freighter Hull should start with worse Handling, though.

And I feel that there's a missing Hull type. I can't quite articulate what it should be, but it seems that I lean towards the Transport and Scout Hulls a lot more than I should.

Maybe not. Just thinking out loud.

Could you try making an ir-3f (FaD core)... last time I used the patrol boat and bulk freighter frame. It's might primary concern point for decreasing the handling of bulk freighters but I'm sure we can compensate for that with other tweaks

@EliasWindrider

IR-3F Light Frigate

Patrol Ship Hull + Transport Frame

3 hp Ion Turbine Engine

1 hp Sensors

4 hp Weapons

14 hp Cargo Bay ×7 (+1 Cargo Pod)

2 hp Customization HP

24 of 27 HP used.

This ship is easy to build.

In fact, with 3 unallocated hp, you could use 1 for Life Support (instead of the free Mods from the Transport) and 2 for an Auxiliary Generator in place of one of the Engine Mods.

1 hour ago, salamar_dree said:

@EliasWindrider

IR-3F Light Frigate

Patrol Ship Hull + Transport Frame

3 hp Ion Turbine Engine

1 hp Sensors

4 hp Weapons

14 hp Cargo Bay ×7 (+1 Cargo Pod)

2 hp Customization HP

24 of 27 HP used.

This ship is easy to build.

In fact, with 3 unallocated hp, you could use 1 for Life Support (instead of the free Mods from the Transport) and 2 for an Auxiliary Generator in place of one of the Engine Mods.

Thanks... it's been a while since I tried to build it

This is something I might have been missing but, what is base consumables by sil or by frame?

The life support attachment maxes out at 400 days, per installation, for sil 10 vessels, are we to assume that all vessels have no base or that they have 1 free integrated Life Support attachment?

@Gordian Naught

Only the Scout and Transport Hulls have mods that increase consumables without purchasing Life Support.

As not all craft that can be made with these rules need Life Support (speeders, walkers, etc.), it's not automatic.

Cheers!

@EliasWindrider

Upon giving the Dedicated Hangar Bay table another look, I'd like to suggest the following changes:

Sil 1 --

Sil 2 --

Sil 3 +5