Church... you're wrong. You will be told so by whatever authority you finally see fit to recognize.

Read the rule again, then consult the timing definition for "when" and "before". You can't just fabricate trigger states out of midair.

To reach step one of activation you MUST be activating the unit.

I appreciate a good rules argument as much as the next guy, but you are barking up the wrong tree and being contrarian whether you realize it or not.

I believe you believe this is an actual rules discrepancy, but no, RAW does not support your contention.

All that being said, please seek as direct and complete and answer as you need from whoever you'll accept it from. Far be it from me to stop you seeking satisfaction on the matter.

I'm just saying... when you get it back I'm going to indulge in a major "I told you so", and if you're vindicated I'll post a video of me eating my socks.

This is so much fun!

8 hours ago, Church14 said:

Well, now that somebody pointed out the the entire crux of this topic was already solved quite clearly with the L2P guide (turns out I should have read that), I’m done here. I’ll listen to what people have to say, but I think I’m going to wait until Adepticon and lay it out for the TO to decide

When you lay it out to the TO, remember to ask if revealing a unit's dial to activate them is a game effect. If it is a game effect, is it then canceled by entering terrain, per 81.2's 2nd bullet point - last sentence? If it is cancelled, seeking clarification on what the ramifications for having a unit's activation canceled are would be advisable. It would also be a good idea for you to spend any inspiration tokens before doing their move. I think there is little question question that this is a game effect that would be canceled by entering terrain. OH, and remember not to take a panic token when they collide with an enemy unit during that pre-activation move.

Should the TO agree with you, it would be a gentlemanly thing for the both of you to present this ruling to your opponent before the game begins. I can say that were this sprung on me in the middle of the game, and my understanding of timings and ability interactions were so thoroughly shattered, I would not have an enjoyable game. Let your opponent be thrown into disarray by the morale deck, not some rules layering in the middle of the game.

I would also urge you into preparedness for graciously accept the TO saying that no, a unit is indeed activated during the Before Revealing Dial time zone.

Hey, this is how we learn, right?

Seriously though, I'll eat my socks.

5 hours ago, Govrek said:

When you lay it out to the TO, remember to ask if revealing a unit's dial to activate them is a game effect. If it is a game effect, is it then canceled by entering terrain, per 81.2's 2nd bullet point - last sentence? If it is cancelled, seeking clarification on what the ramifications for having a unit's activation canceled are would be advisable. It would also be a good idea for you to spend any inspiration tokens before doing their move. I think there is little question question that this is a game effect that would be canceled by entering terrain. OH, and remember not to take a panic token when they collide with an enemy unit during that pre-activation move.

Should the TO agree with you, it would be a gentlemanly thing for the both of you to present this ruling to your opponent before the game begins. I can say that were this sprung on me in the middle of the game, and my understanding of timings and ability interactions were so thoroughly shattered, I would not have an enjoyable game. Let your opponent be thrown into disarray by the morale deck, not some rules layering in the middle of the game.

I would also urge you into preparedness for graciously accept the TO saying that no, a unit is indeed activated during the Before Revealing Dial time zone.

All the comments about day of are spot on. I’ll ask for a ruling, explain context, probably point him directly to this thread as a starter. I’ll bring it up with opponents as well. I want to win by playing better, not by pulling what feels like BS rules lawyering on them unexpectedly

If the TO doesn’t agree with my view... well, TOs word is scripture. I - if inclined - could still try to go to FFG support emails, but the topic would be closed for that particular day.

Yeah... so the TO was an Adepticon volunteer and didn’t seem particularly well versed in Runewars. After he had a bit of a “huh?” moment when we asked hm to select the 1st round deployments and objectives, I realized he wasn’t the person to make an informed ruling. So I played the generally accepted interpretation and will continue to do so until FFG gives us something definitive in a FAQ or email response.

6 hours ago, Church14 said:

Yeah... so the TO was an Adepticon volunteer and didn’t seem particularly well versed in Runewars. After he had a bit of a “huh?” moment when we asked hm to select the 1st round deployments and objectives, I realized he wasn’t the person to make an informed ruling. So I played the generally accepted interpretation and will continue to do so until FFG gives us something definitive in a FAQ or email response.

Yeah, even at events organized and staffed by FFG, most judges are just volunteers. Usually they have a passion for the game, but not always. I know FFG didn't organize any of the events at Adepticon this year. Most of it was done by Cascade Games. The Legion events were organized by Adepticon themselves. I don't know about Runewars.

Am I correct that the TLDR of this post is:

When does activation begin? At Step 0 or Step 1?

Threadromancy ho!!!

I finally got a ruling that I respect at FFGHQ regionals.

In a nutshell, activation will start at the nonexistent step 0 of initiative (selecting a unit). This should be in an upcoming FAQ. I’d (personally) consider this as official as anything not directly in the FAQ gets.

I asked him about the L2P explicitly spelling out that revealing the dial is activating and RRG doesn’t contradict it. His response was kind of an “Oops, we’ll fix that.” So I had RAW correct, but RAI (as we all kind of figured) is that the pre-dial move is part of activating.

To summarize back to original question: Entering terrain during the Ripper’s pre-reveal movement ends the activation

This changes so much! Still nasty coming out of terrain, but much easier to see coming.

7 hours ago, Church14 said:

Threadromancy ho!!!

I finally got a ruling that I respect at FFGHQ regionals.

In a nutshell, activation will start at the nonexistent step 0 of initiative (selecting a unit). This should be in an upcoming FAQ. I’d (personally) consider this as official as anything not directly in the FAQ gets.

I asked him about the L2P explicitly spelling out that revealing the dial is activating and RRG doesn’t contradict it. His response was kind of an “Oops, we’ll fix that.” So I had RAW correct, but RAI (as we all kind of figured) is that the pre-dial move is part of activating.

To summarize back to original question: Entering terrain during the Ripper’s pre-reveal movement ends the activation

Can confirm, and I was trounced by Church14 at said event.

Good game sir!

Great to get a ruling. Like you, I hope it gets into the FAQ soon.

I just read this entire thread now; what a rollercoaster of emotion!

On a side response, regardless of RAW vs RAI, I always treat the ruleset of a game as a permissive ruleset (other than D&D). That means if it doesn't say I can, then I can't.

For whatever that's worth...

So glad this got clarified and that we accept that entering terrain, be it as part of your dead sprint does cancel your entire activation. But now I would like two things clarified so I have them right in my head:

1. Can you use your dead sprint to exit terrain? I assume yes.
2. Does Scuttling Horror allow you to enter terrain during the command phase and then pop out when you activate or are we at the Dead Sprint example again?

3 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

So glad this got clarified and that we accept that entering terrain, be it as part of your dead sprint does cancel your entire activation. But now I would like two things clarified so I have them right in my head:

1. Can you use your dead sprint to exit terrain? I assume yes.
2. Does Scuttling Horror allow you to enter terrain during the command phase and then pop out when you activate or are we at the Dead Sprint example again?

1) Yes. Leaving terrain doesn’t end activation.

2) Yes. It occurs before any dials are revealed (before the activation phase) and cannot be part of the Thresher’s activation. This was another question they answered.

During game 2, I did exactly that. Scuttled in and used I7 shift to pop out the far side

I'm not sure if I am following or understanding the topic properly, but I checked the Official Rulings thread at the top of this sub forum and saw the following:

Question: If the ability on the Flesh Rippers' unit card causes them to enter terrain, does their activation end even though they have not revealed their command tool yet?

Answer: Yes. Their command tool is revealed to indicate that the unit has activated, but any actions or bonus actions they have selected are canceled.

Was late to the party and actually saw it had been resolved in this thread after all, apologies.

On 3/5/2018 at 4:27 PM, rowdyoctopus said:

In order to perform a "before" effect, you have to have already triggered the thing it is coming before.

Step 1 of activating a unit is to reveal it's command tool. If you haven't chosen a unit to activate, how do you know which command tool to reveal?

You activate a unit. Then you reveal it's command tool. Functionally, it cannot work any other way.

Look at attacking. Section 10 doesn't say you declare your attack. No one would argue that selecting your relevant attack profiles is how you determine you are attacking. It is merely the first step you take after you have declared that you are attacking.

My reading is:

The RRG states that activation occurs and that the first task in activation is to show the command dial. However, in the Flesh Ripper’s case, their activation is modified by the before clause with states in 83.7 that a before clause occurs immediately before the specified event. The event is not “activation”, that is a phase, the event is the first event of activation the display of the command dial per RRG 5, step 1 – Activation. So you could read the instruction as “Initiate a unit’s activation phase but, before performing step 1 of Activation - Revealing Command Tool, you must perform a speed-1 [march].

On 3/5/2018 at 4:50 PM, Church14 said:

No. You have to be about to trigger the event. So if you want to trigger the “before”effect, you have now functionally committed to whatever the trigger is. Flesh Rippers are about to reveal the dial, so they move. Now in order of operations, they must reveal that dial next. No moving on to a different unit right away. Your “before comes during” logic doesn’t make sense to me.

Yes, Step 1 of activating a unit is revealing its command tool. By that satement, my Flesh Rippers can do what I asked in original post. Your follow up statement is philosophically sound, but doesn’t apply here. Choosing a unit to activate is not activating that unit. Until you flip the dial, it isn’t activated.

You activate a unit by revealing its dial. I am still waiting for anyone to explain where between section 5 and section 5.1 exists section 5.05 “Step 0– Activate the unit.” Section 5 describes activation. Section 5.1 is the first step.

You reference section 10. Step 1 is choose an attack profile. Until you do that, you haven’t started attacking. You were just thinking about it or talking about it. This seems to validate my point.

Sorry I am late to the party. I totally agree with you Church14. If the event had to happen before you could use before... we'd be able to take out an insurance policy after the event occurred!!!

This was answered by FFG

Man. If only regenerate made my figures come back like this thread....

19 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Man. If only regenerate made my figures come back like this thread....

Lol. Sorry, I am new to rw and just started reading the list.

33 minutes ago, rebellightworks said:

This was answered by FFG

Thanks Rebellightworks