EDIT: There's a reason Shane is our local rules guy. Forget my nonsense, his rationale is backed up by the actual game rules.

I am going to try to get Shane (our local rules guy/tournament TO) @Zetan to weigh in here.

So, here's how I read it. @Church14 sees rule 5, sees that step 1 of activation, and therefore that step 1 is the first thing that happens in activation. That, essentially, revealing the command tool triggers activation starting.

The rule that tells me this is wrong (not clearly, mind you, because these rules are rarely clear) is actually on the next page; rule 6.1. "At each number during the count, the first player declares if he has a unit with an initiative value that matches that number. If he does, he activates one unit that has that initiative value." Based on that wording, the trigger is reaching the initiative count and deciding, "Hey, I'm going to activate this unit."

Then, rule 5 shows up and says, "Okay, you're activating a unit. Here's some things you should do now that you're doing that. 3 things, in fact, they're here in steps." Those things are all triggers based on you activating the unit.

Finally, things that happen before you reveal your dial trigger. You have an opportunity to spend inspiration tokens, you move your flesh rippers, etc.

So, in summary, here's how the order of events go. You reach the initiative value you dialed in. The wording on 6.1 doesn't say you "choose to activate," it says you activate. So activation begins. The fact that you're activating triggers step 1 of rule 5, which triggers movement. The movement, having now been triggered, happens before step 1.

That's how I would rule it. But I definitely still see enough ambiguity that an FAQ entry would be very welcome.

To be clear, Im not trying to intentionally be dense. Im just not seeing the new for the phantom step every is adding.

I’m not seeing rule 6.1 as relevant. It spells out how walk your way up through initiative. So by rule 6.1, once initiative hits four and I have two units with initiative four actions:

1) per rule 6.1, I say that it is now initiative four and say that I have an iniative four activation. I must choose one to activate.

2(Everyone else’s interpretation): I say that I choose the rippers. My rippers are now activated per phantom rule. I now move my Rippers per unit text. I then reveal dial per rule 5.1

2(My reading of it): I must now select and activate a unit. I choose the Rippers. I decide I will activate them. I am forced to do forward movement per unit card. Once I start that movement, I am locked into having to activate them or else cheat by violating the requirements of “before” as defined in RRG. I then activate Rippers per rule 5.1 by revealing their dial.

One interpretation requires no extra step. The other requires a phantom step not defined in the rules. What am I missing in the general community’s interpretation that makes people feel the nonexistent step is necessary? It seems to revolve around the idea that committing to an act is in itself starting that act, which isn’t true. Committing to an act wouldopen the “before” window hough

I will play it locally with the weaker interpretation as that is how I have always done it regardless of game until a more official ruling says otherwise. I’m not truly worried about it at the moment as only one unit under one circumstance makes it matter. I’ll be at Adepticon. if the TO is an FFG person, I’ll ask them for some kind of ruling.

7 hours ago, Church14 said:

2(Everyone else’s interpretation):

1. I say that I choose the rippers.
2. My rippers are now activated per phantom rule. I now move my Rippers per unit text.
3. I then reveal dial per rule 5.1

2(My reading of it): I must now select and activate a unit.

1. I choose the Rippers. I decide I will activate them.
2. I am forced to do forward movement per unit card. Once I start that movement, I am locked into having to activate them or else cheat by violating the requirements of “before” as defined in RRG .
3. I then activate Rippers per rule 5.1 by revealing their dial.

The two interpretations are functionally equivalent. I used formatting to help illustrate.

The "phantom step" being added is a construct to help understand the activation window. Your interpretation does the same thing, it is just semantics. Your wording at the end, "I then activate Rippers" is what feels the most confusing.

By activating the Rippers and doing a "before activation action" it is still a part of the activation and thus entering terrain would stop the rest of the activation immediately.

55 minutes ago, Aetheriac said:

The two interpretations are functionally equivalent. I used formatting to help illustrate.

The "phantom step" being added is a construct to help understand the activation window. Your interpretation does the same thing, it is just semantics. Your wording at the end, "I then activate Rippers" is what feels the most confusing.

By activating the Rippers and doing a "before activation action" it is still a part of the activation and thus entering terrain would stop the rest of the activation immediately.

Your logic is sound, but we aren’t arguing logic. We are arguing the RRG

You are mostly right. 99% of the time it really is just semantic. So far only one interaction makes the difference in semantics relevant. Though that interaction is the difference between an opponent being able to use a blocker to charge my rippers that are in terrain after turn 1 and my rippers already being past that blocker before the end of turn 1. Though a savvy opponent then just counters by moving into the terrain first.

Assuming 2 things: A unit is activated when their Reveal Command Tool is revealed, & Reveal the Command Tool is a game effect. Because the Rippers entered terrain during a Before step, they have a game effect to perform (revealing their command tool). This gets canceled as a result of their decision to enter terrain.

[Before Revealing Dial]
[Before Moving]
Move Flesh Rippers [When Moving] - overlaps terrain, causing a collision
Resolve collision [ After Moving] - Colliding with terrain effects (Deadly, Taxing etc.), decide whether to enter the terrain.
[Before Entering Terrain]
Flesh Rippers decide to enter and occupy the terrain [When Entering Terrain] - resolve effects of entering terrain (eg. enemy unit is touching terrain, get a panic)
[After Entering Terrain] Flesh Rippers activation immediately ends{irrelevant, they have not yet activated}. If it had a bonus action or other game effects to perform , these are canceled.
Reveal Dial [When Dial is Revealed] The Rippers are now activated, but they do not have a revealed command dial
[After Revealing Dial]

This poses a paradoxical situation: By entering terrain, and thus cancelling the revelation of their command tool, they have canceled the activation window for their movement.

Can one make a decision that will cancel the event that brought them to this decision point? Unfortunately, the Cancel section of the Rules Reference only pertains to actions, modifiers and bonus actions. Though it does contain the line "A game effect cannot be resolved if it is triggered from an action or modifier that is canceled." If we apply this more broadly as "A game effect cannot be resolved if it is triggered from a GAME EFFECT that is canceled." then clearly the Rippers cannot enter the terrain. But, this is perhaps reading too much into Rules as Intended.

Let us assume that it is not the act of revealing a unit's command tool that activates it, but that Reveal Command Tool is the step that begins a unit's activation. A game effect of that step is to reveal the command tool. This game effect was canceled by entering the terrain. So now we have a unit that is activated, but does not have a revealed command tool. It performs no action, bonus action, or has any modifiers, it's activation then ends. We know they cant activate again with their unrevealed dial because Activation section of the Rules Reference explicitly states that a unit can only activate once. Though what are we supposed to do with this bit in the activation section: "After a unit has activated, its command tool remains revealed to indicate that the unit has activated."? The unit's command tool was never revealed. Does it Remain un-revealed? Do we reveal it and tip it over to show that the unit was activated? How does this interact with upgrades like Visored Helms or File Leader?

The way I see it, there are 4 ways this can work:
1 - The Flesh Ripper's Paradox: the act of entering terrain cancels their activation, thus canceling their ability to have moved into terrain.
2 - The need to prevent a paradox prevents the Flesh Rippers from entering terrain with their pre-revelation move.
3 - The Flesh Rippers can enter terrain, and activate afterwords, but the revelation of their command tool is canceled, thus effectively ending their activation, and leading to a host of other rules quandaries.
4 - A unit is activated before the Before Raveling Dial timing step, thus the act of entering terrain with the pre-revelation move ends their activation.

Only one of these interpretations seems the simplest and cleanest: #4.

Out of curiosity @Church14 , does the Dead Sprint upgrade card affect the Ripper's pre-revelation move?

Really should have brought up Dead Sprint before, given that it indicates fairly explicitly that the initial March takes place INSIDE the activation window.

Unless someone wants to try and argue this isn't meant to interact with their unit ability which, again, it obviously is.

54 minutes ago, Tvayumat said:

Really should have brought up Dead Sprint before, given that it indicates fairly explicitly that the initial March takes place INSIDE the activation window.

Unless someone wants to try and argue this isn't meant to interact with their unit ability which, again, it obviously is.

Doh! How did I not see that!

This is the kind of thing I wanted to see. I’m about 99% certain that is meant for the pre-reveal move, so I’ll accept that as evidence that the move is meant to be part of activation.

I know Dead Sprint already put the nail in the coffin of this one, but I still want to point out, since I haven't been back here until now:

On 3/7/2018 at 8:02 AM, Church14 said:

I’m not seeing rule 6.1 as relevant. It spells out how walk your way up through initiative. So by rule 6.1, once initiative hits four and I have two units with initiative four actions:

1) per rule 6.1, I say that it is now initiative four and say that I have an iniative four activation. I must choose one to activate.

6.1 doesn't say "he chooses one unit that has that initiative value to activate" it says " he activates one unit that has that initiative value." To me, this is still the wording that seals it for me. That says to me that you begin activating at that moment.

There are many "extra steps" to activation, clearly; added by all the "before" and "after" wording. But just because an ability adds in an "extra step" before the first step doesn't mean it isn't part of activation. I mean, spending Immobilize and Stun tokens adds an extra step after step 1; is that step 1.5? If your bonus action is a rally and you're in range 1-5 of Bannerscamp, is adding the panic token step 3.5?

I don't see instances of "before" and "after" as adding steps; I think they are just a modification of the step they modify. The movement of the Rippers happens during step 1 of activation. The fact that it says "before" is simply clarifying where within the step it takes place; at the beginning of it, before performing the default actions of the step. This reasoning seems to make everything work pretty consistently.

A player chooses 1of his units to activate during the Activation Phase 6RR

“During the Activation Phase, players activate each of their units, starting with the unit that has the lowest initiative and continuing in order of ascending initiative.
6.1 Players resolve the Activation Phase by counting out loud, starting with “one.” At each number during the count, the 1st player declares if he has a unit with an initiative value that matches that number. If he does, he activates one unit that has that initiative value.”

You are activating a unit when you pick that unit. So flesh rippers are an active unit when you choose them over any other units with the same initiative.

5RR “ Units are activated during the Activation Phase. When a player
activates one of his units, he resolves the following steps in order:”

Activation happens before you tip over your command dial that is just the first step in resolving the activation.

The weird thing is you kept referencing the rule that tells you right in the first sentence that the unit is active.

4 hours ago, Patton68 said:

A player chooses 1of his units to activate during the Activation Phase 6RR

“During the Activation Phase, players activate each of their units, starting with the unit that has the lowest initiative and continuing in order of ascending initiative.
6.1 Players resolve the Activation Phase by counting out loud, starting with “one.” At each number during the count, the 1st player declares if he has a unit with an initiative value that matches that number. If he does, he activates one unit that has that initiative value.”

You are activating a unit when you pick that unit. So flesh rippers are an active unit when you choose them over any other units with the same initiative.

5RR “ Units are activated during the Activation Phase. When a player
activates one of his units, he resolves the following steps in order:”

Activation happens before you tip over your command dial that is just the first step in resolving the activation.

The weird thing is you kept referencing the rule that tells you right in the first sentence that the unit is active.

Your interpretation requires me to believe that the act of describing something is also doing that something. Look at every X.0 rule in the RRG. Those are descriptions of concepts and sometimes where they apply in the game, not instructions on how to perform said concepts. The instruction on how to perform something or implement it aren’t until X.1. You would force me to believe that somehow Rule 5 is different than the rest

Step 1 of activation is somehow not starting activation? I’m waiting for the justification. Rule 6.1 just says to go and activate a unit, not how. Rule 5 describes the concept of activation. Rule 5.1 is step 1 (literally called out as so in RRG) of activation.

Lets be clear, at this point I’m trying to figure out how to justify Dead Sprint being the first, forced movement because I believe that interpretation is RAI. Strictly RAW, it would be the movement revealed by the dial.

Nobody has actually put up a valid argument for how revealing the dial is not starting the activation. Just one card that really makes it look like there is a nebulous wndown between activation and revealing the dial that doesn’t exist in the rules. Im trying to reason out on my own now how that works and arguments like yours are starting to make me wonder if Dead Sprint is supposed to apply to the dial movement and not that forced march.

EDIT: Apologies for the tone. I reread this and it comes off much more harsh (and arrogant) than I intend. I’m not the best at text-based communication

I think the issue of Dead Sprint is clear, and also makes the idea of activation clear. Flesh Rippers specify that you perform a march before your dial is revealed. Dead Sprint references your first march. Reading the Flesh Rippers ability as taking place outside of their activation opens it up to being way more complicated than it seems to be intended. This is how I read it:

I choose to activate my Flesh Rippers.

I am therefore about to reveal their command tool, but before I do that (immediately before, as the RRG states for the definition of "before"), I must march.

I have a window to trigger Dead Sprint, as I have activated my Flesh Rippers. I choose to trigger it or not, and then the window passes.

I do their march.

The next thing I have to do is reveal my command tool.

For it to work the way you are saying, it would have to go like this:

It is my turn to activate a unit on initiative 3, and I have multiple units to choose from.

I don't say I am activating them, but perform the Flesh Rippers mandatory march.

I say I am activating them.

I reveal their command tool.

I have a window to trigger Dead Sprint. I choose to trigger it or not, and then the window passes.

I do their march.

To me, the second one doesn't make sense, and here's why. Not only does it make things needlessly complicated, there is this from the RRG:

83 Timing: Each effect in the game has a timing during which it can resolve. This timing is usually specified by the game effect, though some effects use the more specific timing described in this section.

83.7 A “before” event occurs immediately before the specified event and cannot occur again for that instance of the event.

So if it has "Before," it's an effect. Since the Flesh Rippers mandatory movement has "Before," it's an effect that specifies its timing. The thing that triggers the effect is revealing your command tool, but then the trigger pauses that reveal to happen immediately before. If revealing your command tool both means you are activated and also triggers a game effect, then the effect happens while you are an active unit.

Do I think that you declare you are activating, then reveal your dial as part of that, rather than the dial reveal being the start of activation? Yes. But by either logic, the Flesh Rippers movement (and other effects such as Inspiration: Before a unit with an inspiration token reveals its command tool, that token can be spent to remove one bane from that unit or to ready an upgrade card on that unit ) happens during activation.

EDIT: These may also help clarify: 1 Abilities Abilities are game effects found on unit cards and upgrade cards. Each ability describes the game effect it provides.

88.1 Upgrade cards grant additional effects to the units that have them equipped.

Honestly, this is just silly at this point.

6 hours ago, Tvayumat said:

Honestly, this is just silly at this point.

Eh. Pretty much. Nobody has really addressed my points and I am convinced I have addressed how they aren’t reading the RRG correctly. The appeals to logic or simplicity don’t apply either. Clearly I’m not explaining myself well enough. I don’t expect anything productive at this point.

I have been willing for a while to wait until Adepticon where I should be able to ask an FFG employee for a ruling. People keep responding, trying to make points, and digging a deeper logical hole. I am only really responding and replying now and not attempting to drive the conversation.

36 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Eh. Pretty much. Nobody has really addressed my points and I am convinced I have addressed how they aren’t reading the RRG correctly. The appeals to logic or simplicity don’t apply either. Clearly I’m not explaining myself well enough. I don’t expect anything productive at this point.

I have been willing for a while to wait until Adepticon where I should be able to ask an FFG employee for a ruling. People keep responding, trying to make points, and digging a deeper logical hole. I am only really responding and replying now and not attempting to drive the conversation.

Did you think to maybe send the FFG guys an email? There's a whole mechanism for rules questions.

In the meantime, clearly no one is going to change your mind on anything.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

Did you think to maybe send the FFG guys an email? There's a whole mechanism for rules questions.

In the meantime, clearly no one is going to change your mind on anything.

I’ve tried, but the captcha doesn’t work for me.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

Did you think to maybe send the FFG guys an email? There's a whole mechanism for rules questions.

I sent an rules question last week about closing in. I hope to get an answer soon, but I imagine they don't have time for Runewars Rules Questions with this push to get Legion out the door right now.

1 hour ago, Parakitor said:

I sent an rules question last week about closing in. I hope to get an answer soon, but I imagine they don't have time for Runewars Rules Questions with this push to get Legion out the door right now.

They barely seem to have time for Runewars product, let alone questions.

I thought dead sprint was an end all to this. Seems case closed.

side note, can immobilize stop the innate march? It's not technically a dialed action so not sure it can be stopped.

1 hour ago, Jukey said:

I thought dead sprint was an end all to this. Seems case closed.

side note, can immobilize stop the innate march? It's not technically a dialed action so not sure it can be stopped.

Eh? Sort of. It settles it if we know or universally agree that the intent was for it to modify the first pre-reveal march. If it is, then there has to be some pre-dial reveal moment not defined in RRG when activation starts.

If we strictly follow RRG without adding that made up phase, then it applies to the movement chosen on the dial. So we are choosing what we see as RAI over RAW for the moment.

Requests have been made through the right channels. I’ll force some sort of ruling at Adepticon (a decent interim ruling) as - regardless of interpretation - I will be throwing rippers through a lot of terrain. Even the “weaker” interpretation still has them being able to get through terrain and into the backfield very quickly. So I’m inclined to let this thread die until we get official rulings.

As for immilbize: I don’t think it stops Ravos’ unique or the Flesh Ripper forced march

I have always been of the mined set that a unit becomes the active unit, then reveals their dial. It is a hold over assumption from playing X-wing. I have enjoyed the thought experiment of looking at the game through Church's eyes, and can even see a valid argument for his point of view. Not finding a clear definition in the Rules Reference, I went back to the Learn to Play, as it has some items that are not in the RR (how to handle Heavy Figure Upgrades). Therein, I found this little bit: "To activate a unit, a player reveals that unit’s command tool by tipping it over so the icons on the dials are faceup." (L2P p. 6, 2nd column, 2nd paragraph). I see nothing in the Rules Reference that explicitly contradicts this.

Looking for items that could be of interest in this new world I hadn't considered deeply before, I CTRL+F'ed through the Rules Reference for "Activ". The only interesting thing I found was this gem in Collisions

18.1 If the active unit collides with an enemy unit, the active unit receives one panic token and then squares up with that unit.
• The active unit does not receive this panic token if it was performing an action with a charge modifier

So, in a game where the Ripper's pre-revelation move is an out of activation move, they would neither receive a panic token for colliding with an enemy unit during it, nor would they square up. They would have an opportunity to spend inspiration tokens to remove banes received as a result of the collision (Blighted Vexillum Bearer), then reveal their dial and square up. Additionally, Ravos would not get a panic for colliding with his Insatiable Hunger move, since it is definitively outside of his activation (though looking at it, I think this might be the case even if a unit is active before it reveals it's command tool)

Sure, in the Not Activated Until Tool is Revealed world, Dead Sprint cant modify the pre-revelation march, but the Ripper's do have a march on both dials. The wording simply (currently) limits it to the Action Dial March. And it makes for some very interesting options there, especially when paired with an modifiable speed-1 march before hand. I don't see a way for them to use their blue modifies on other stances, but future upgrades may change this, giving them quite amazing flexibility to move after a shift, rally or even attack.

I am also still curious about other people's thoughts on whether or not revealing a unit's command tool is a game effect. In the Not Activated Until Tool is Revealed world, this is what brings it back to the original question of can they pre-reveal march to enter terrain, then reveal their dial to move out. If it is, would it be canceled as one of the game effects yet to be performed?

I don't mean to pummel an undead vampiric equine here. I'm not trying to change minds here. I genuinely enjoy thinking through the ramifications of this change to the way I see the game.

4 hours ago, Jukey said:

side note, can immobilize stop the innate march? It's not technically a dialed action so not sure it can be stopped.

Nope. Has to be march or shift on dial.

Immobilize: When a unit that has an immobilize token reveals either a march (? or shift (? action on his command tool, that token can be spent to cancel that action.

28 minutes ago, Govrek said:

I don't mean to pummel an undead vampiric equine here.

Awesome. Well played.

On 3/14/2018 at 4:55 AM, Church14 said:

Your interpretation requires me to believe that the act of describing something is also doing that something. Look at every X.0 rule in the RRG. Those are descriptions of concepts and sometimes where they apply in the game, not instructions on how to perform said concepts. The instruction on how to perform something or implement it aren’t until X.1. You would force me to believe that somehow Rule 5 is different than the rest

Step 1 of activation is somehow not starting activation? I’m waiting for the justification. Rule 6.1 just says to go and activate a unit, not how. Rule 5 describes the concept of activation. Rule 5.1 is step 1 (literally called out as so in RRG) of activation.

Lets be clear, at this point I’m trying to figure out how to justify Dead Sprint being the first, forced movement because I believe that interpretation is RAI. Strictly RAW, it would be the movement revealed by the dial.

Nobody has actually put up a valid argument for how revealing the dial is not starting the activation. Just one card that really makes it look like there is a nebulous wndown between activation and revealing the dial that doesn’t exist in the rules. Im trying to reason out on my own now how that works and arguments like yours are starting to make me wonder if Dead Sprint is supposed to apply to the dial movement and not that forced march.

EDIT: Apologies for the tone. I reread this and it comes off much more harsh (and arrogant) than I intend. I’m not the best at text-based communication

6 RRG:

“When a player has a unit with an initiative that matches the number that was said out loud, the count
stops and he activates that unit . If multiple units have the same initiative, the players take turns activating those units , starting with the 1st player. Players continue counting out loud, stopping to activate units as appropriate, until all units have activated .”

The rules tell you that activation happens during the activation phase . None of your units are active until their initiative number comes up on your turn(P1 or P2) If you have multiple units with the same initiative value the unit you choose is active. If your Flesh Rippers have the current initiative value and are your only unit with that initiative they would automatically be the active unit without touching their dial.

Activation happens automatically as you count through initiative. You can’t skip your units initiative or your turn. If you put a blank space on the dial it’s initiative is 10 and every unit has to be activatedd for the current initiative before going to the next higher number or end phase. Therefore your unit is activated by the initiative you set for it and not before. You activate at least one of your units with the current initiative value. If you only have one unit the rules clearly state you activate that unit. “When a player has a unit with an initiative that matches the number that was said out loud, the count stops and he activates that unit”.

You want the rules to say activation starts with turning over your dial 5.1 they don’t. They say you activate a unit when it matches the current initiative. “When a player has a unit with an initiative that matches the number that was said out loud, the count stops and he activates that unit”. I know you’re going to say that it says the player activates the unit. However it also says this ” 6.2 If a command tool has no chosen action, the unit is activated at initiative 10.” activation is dependent on initiative.

5 RRG: “When a player activates one of his units , he resolves the following steps in order:” Which means a unit has to be active before you can resolve 5.1 “Reveal Command Tool: The player reveals his unit’s command tool by tipping it over so the icons on the dial are faceup on the play area.” It does not say turn over your command dial to activate that unit. The rules reference guide is alphabetical which is why 6 activation phase is after 5 activation. Rule 5 is a subset of rule 6 Activation Phase which is also the game sequence. It is clear that your initiative determines your units activation.

I do however understand your question and the semantics because in the learn to play guide it states turning over your command dial is how you activate a unit. “To activate a unit, a player reveals that unit’s command tool by tipping it over so the icons on the dials are face up”. However this statement is made as part of the activation phase rules and after the statement “When a player has a unit with an initiative that matches the number that was said out loud, the count stops and he activates that unit ”.

Oh and to be clear you can’t move your Flesh rippers and then activate another unit and say that it’s their move Before you reveal their dial on your next turn. Lol

I still don’t follow how people think that rule 6.1 starts the actual activation of a unit. It just says that you have to/must/will activate a unit.

1 hour ago, Patton68 said:

If your Flesh Rippers have the current initiative value and are your only unit with that initiative they would automatically be the active unit without touching their dial.

How in any reading of the rules do you get this? It says that a player “activates” that unit, not that “that unit is now activated.” You have to go to Rule 5.1 to know how to activate a unit.

1 hour ago, Patton68 said:

I do however understand your question and the semantics because in the learn to play guide it states turning over your command dial is how you activate a unit. “To activate a unit, a player reveals that unit’s command tool by tipping it over so the icons on the dials are face up”. However this statement is made as part of the activation phase rules and after the statement “When a player has a unit with an initiative that matches the number that was said out loud, the count stops and he activates that unit ”.

Wait. Wait. Wait. The learn earn to play guide calls out that the act of revealing the dial is how you activate a unit? I had no idea. I hadn’t ever read the L2P. I learned from guys who were already playing so I skipped it and went to RRG. Since L2P spells this out (on page 5, apparently) , how is there an argument in any way?

To your point, the whole first paragraph with the initiative count is about determining the order of activations. Not the act of activating itself. The second paragraph is where they tell you how to activate

1 hour ago, Patton68 said:

Oh and to be clear you can’t move your Flesh rippers and then activate another unit and say that it’s their move Before you reveal their dial on your next turn. Lol

I don’t know why you think I would allow that. Thinking that I think that would happen requires an almost intentional misunderstanding of what I’m saying. To try and do that violates the definition of “before” in RRG and would be cheating.

Well, now that somebody pointed out the the entire crux of this topic was already solved quite clearly with the L2P guide (turns out I should have read that), I’m done here. I’ll listen to what people have to say, but I think I’m going to wait until Adepticon and lay it out for the TO to decide