“If you succeed, the Empire will be saved.” — Togashi Yokuni

The central question must be posed; How close are we to the coup?

Is FFG going in a different direction with the history of Rokugan? Are there other plots within plots brewing? Will the Imperial families, as some have suggested previously, be taking a different path or headed in another direction as compared to the old lore... These are things that we must know.

Since a good chunk of time has passed since we have had this discussion, anyone care to posit their ideas??? ?

I think we get the 38th killed soon (relatively, I totally hope he starts to save the Empire before Kachiko has him killed) , and sets up a Joffery type situation with 39th while his totally not Daigotsu brother plots and learns Maho.

I reeeeeeally hope FFG didn't hit reset just to revisit old stories... and thus far, the changes they've made more or less bear this hope out.

Might be no coup or dark prophecy this time. but indeed maybe old xxxviii will passes soon, and Sotorii will turn into a new Hantei XVI.

One important thing to consider is that old Rokugan was shaped by player decisions. And not only who won, but how they won, against who they won... heck, even how you lose determined pieces of Old Rokugan. Instead of giving the story a general direction and let the players chose which turn to take when hitting a crossroads, the writers adapted the story entirely based on players.

So a lot of things won’t repeat, if only because we won’t be given the same choices. For example, the Crab allying with the Shadowlands and marching to the capital was already in-setting story, not having to do with players decision (IIRC), but Yakamo trading his oni claw for the Jade fist was. And all the times the Phoenix went “Oooh, look, Maho. Let’s play with it!” was because some players used corrupted/tainted decks and won with them.

So for me, I’d reset the story to how it was originally (so the SCC will still happen), with some of the retcons AEG made to better tie the original story with the past of Rokugan. And from there, a totally new story, based on players decisions, although much more controlled than in CCG era.

There seems to be no prophecy this time around (at least none hinted at as of yet).
Without said prophecy, the coup is muuuch less interesting (ie: just another blatant power grab).

So I'm very much hoping for no coup this time!

Don't forget we have a Lore Sub-Forum. /alert: please move/

3 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

There seems to be no prophecy this time around (at least none hinted at as of yet).
Without said prophecy, the coup is muuuch less interesting (ie: just another blatant power grab).

So I'm very much hoping for no coup this time!

Just for the counterpoint, I very much am hoping for a coup (or equivalent...)

On the game/story side, I don't want things to become too static. The Imperial Cycle was clearly setup, still introducing the setting, so I don't hold that up on either side. But especially as AEG's time went on, we had a very static Empire, where we were assured nothing would ever change except who held which seat at the table (and even that would only be temporary.) We would periodically be threatened by a big-bad from outside, because nothing on the inside could ever threaten to turn things over. It made for a repetitive story, and one that got boring after a while. The promise of the coup (actually of the Second Day of Thunder, since that's where the story started in AEG's day) was a shakeup, a change in the Empire. Of course, when they made that story, they didn't really think things would continue, so had limited planning beyond that point. Nevertheless, there was a real shakeup then.

And that's the other side. The original story was good - solid, with strong mythic elements. Admittedly, I like Wick's writing, so it's no surprise that all appealed to me. But at the story's start, we had a decaying Empire - there had been a solid core once, but it had long since rotted out. The clans all paid lip service to their various virtues, but that was all. They put up a front, a pretense, while ignoring and real virtue. This was true for all the clans back in the Clan War days - it's why the Crab could make common cause with the Shadowlands, and why the Lion turned hard against the ronin Toturi. That the Emperor was possessed by Fu Leng was less the cause of this decay than it was a symptom, an outward sign that could happen because of all the rot. And yet there was a core of that old strength, the original virtues, that we fans could see and appreciate, and like. The struggle was whether Toturi could string together a rag-tag band who held to a core of honor, whether the Thunders could overcome their persona feuds and vendettas to do something noble and important. And it was never clear that they'd succeed, and in some cases (including my much-loved Hitomi) they were at best marginally successful.

FFG's version, thus far, shows much less rot in the Empire, the samurai are nobler and hold truer to bushido. I suspect that will lead to a more static story, as we saw later in AEG's day. It's one reason I hope for a coup - it doesn't have to be the Scorpion this time, if they want to shake things up, I can see some reasons for any clan to overthrow the Emperor. But I did like that story of a fallen Empire trying to rise against itself as well as an external foe, and hope we see some more of that. Mind you, I hope they plan out better than AEG did for what comes after, but I'd like to see that big shake up too.

I don't like the idea of overthrowing the Hantei line.

If the Clans need to compete for a top spot then the shake-up could introduce a shogunesque title for the, to compete over.

5 hours ago, agarrett said:

FFG's version, thus far, shows much less rot in the Empire, the samurai are nobler and hold truer to bushido.

...

You reading the same stories I am? The ones where a noisily spoiled brat is next in line for the throne, where someone is manipulating events to try to get Matsu Tsuko to be blinded by bloodlust, where the very elements have begun to fall out of balance, where the Crane desperately cling to what power they still can because their coasts have been ravaged by both a tsunami and the piracy of the Mantis, where the Crab are feeling a powerful sense of neglect by the rest of the Empire to the point where they're prepared to offer legitimacy to pirates, where Kachiko's vaulting ambition has her willing to cast aside subtlety to advance the cause of the Scorpion, where the Lion and the Unicorn can each accuse the other of dealing in bad faith, where elements of the Lion rail against their own champion, where the Elemental Council has students taking the blame for things beyond their control in the name of keeping up appearances, where the previous Emerald Champion may or may not have been murdered?

This Empire feels *plenty* rotten, we've just been seeing it through the eyes of fairly heroic characters thus far.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

This Empire feels *plenty* rotten, we've just been seeing it through the eyes of fairly heroic characters thus far.

... and Scorpions. But I suppose they're expected to be rotten regardless.

8 hours ago, agarrett said:

Of course, when they made that story, they didn't really think things would continue, so had limited planning beyond that point.

This actually touches on why I'm against a coup, lol.

It was much easier to be bold and take obvious risks when you know you're working toward an ending, but when the ending is nowhere in sight and the story is open-ended, it's much less clear whether it's a good idea or not.
For instance, consider the consequences of a coup. Either it fails and one clan suffers utter shame and defeat (as the Scorpion did last time, being disbanded and exiled from the empire) or the entire Empire is shaken by a new body with new ideals occupying the throne. Maybe there's room for that kind of shakeup later down the line, but this early? The only reason it worked last time was because there was an end in sight and, to be fair, it didn't actually work as it caused a whole bunch of problems when that end failed to arrive.

I'm excited to see the Hantei line have a chance to exist, at least for a bit. They got a raw deal last time, lol.

The way I see it, if there's going to be a coup, it'll be Kachiko's, not Shoju, which has a very good potential. Here's a few storylines we could see.

-Scorpion Civil War. Clan is split between those loyal to Shoju, aiming to get rid of the clan's influence to better protect the empire from the shadows and Kachiko's, wanting power for the clan, but first and foremost for herself.

-Heir's feud. Sotorii is not an ideal ruler, but he is the legitimate one. Daisetsu understands politics like no others and will not let this opportunity pass. Lines will be drawn, Clans will make their choices, mistakes will be made (coughmahocough) and civil war will erupt.

6 hours ago, Tetsuhiko said:

The way I see it, if there's going to be a coup, it'll be Kachiko's, not Shoju, which has a very good potential. Here's a few storylines we could see.

-Heir's feud. Sotorii is not an ideal ruler, but he is the legitimate one. Daisetsu understands politics like no others and will not let this opportunity pass. Lines will be drawn, Clans will make their choices, mistakes will be made (coughmahocough) and civil war will erupt.

Y'know, that could be one brutal storyline - the Emperor dies, and while sudden, he was an old man... and then one of the heirs accuses the other of having commited patricide in order to seize the throne. One of them may have done it, or they could have simply seized on the opportunity to eliminate a potential rival claimant to the throne.

If you went with the latter, then we have the additional hook of figuring out who killed the Emperor, why, and whether or not the fratricidal fallout was a part of the plan.

And then there's the Clans reactions to a brewing Hantei Civil War: which heir do we support? Do we support the Hantei line staying on the Throne at all? Is there concensus inside the Clans over what course of action to take, or do we see internal powerstruggles there as well? Do we get families trying to supplant each other as the rulers of their Clan?

And then there's the Minor Clans reactions, potential Ronin warlords, Heimin uprisings, and the ever-looming threat of the Shadowlands to take into consideration...

Is the Empire "rotten"?

Keep in mind, that's an in-setting controversy. Is this "the Age of Declining Virtue"?

The least virtuous thing I have seen a main character do so far is break her word in the most public way possible to the disgrace of her family and Clan. And that is, admittedly, really bad but even ner own son calls her out on it. Hardly seems that her dishonorable behavior is so widespread as to offend the Kami, for example.

9 hours ago, Manchu said:

The least virtuous thing I have seen a main character do so far is break her word in the most public way possible to the disgrace of her family and Clan.

No, the least virtuous thing was trying to rig a duel to put one of your puppets as Emerald Champion (while contradicting your Clan champion’s orders)

Also, if you count the prince as one of the main characters, his behavior in the duel against the Ruby Champion was anything but virtuous. The soon-to-be son of the heavens, which represents divinity on earth, not being virtuous can really anger the Kami.

I didn't count Kachiko's plan because that's nothing out of the ordinary for Scorpion. As to the Crown Prince, he is certainly haughty and spoiled but that hardly seems very strange for royalty - certainly not malignant and perverse enough to break the cosmos.

Hey, assuming he still happened in this continuity, the Steel Chrysanthemum was malignant and perverse beyond measure and it didn't break the cosmos.

Meaning I really doubt the corruption in the Empire is what's throwing the kami out of whack. I think it's something else entirely.

Or maybe the perception that corruption is causing the elemental imbalance of the kami is part of the plan.

Conspiracy Theory Time

A group of people long for the great old days. A time where the samurais were pillars of virtues and honor meant more than your life. Now, Lords and vassals are more interested in their own agenda, at least according to this group, and use honor and tradition as an excuse for disgusting behavior, corrupting its very essence.

They cannot go to the courts or the Emperor to change things, as they are part of the problem. Therefore they unleashed dangerous magic, distorting the balance between the elements and the Great Clans, hoping to cause a civil war where all the problematic elements of Rokugan will be purged and they will be able to seize power when the dust settle, rebuilding using stronger foundations.

Kolat confirmed.

I'm also hoping for a Scorpion civil war. I think that would be incredibly interesting. To me it feels like the fiction is setting up a Kachiko faction versus a Shoju faction so it's not a big leap.

1 hour ago, phillos said:

I'm also hoping for a Scorpion civil war. I think that would be incredibly interesting. To me it feels like the fiction is setting up a Kachiko faction versus a Shoju faction so it's not a big leap.

To back this up every clan seems poised to fight someone else (Dragon and Crab vs SL, Crane and Unicorn vs Lion and Phoenix) so all the Scorpion have left to fight is themselves. Unless the Scorpion are off to fight the Pure Lands sect with the Dragon... or I guess fight the Dragon over the sect... there's about to be a whole mess of fighting isn't there o.O

The coup is going to happen. Its just a matter of when.

1. Other then some minor changes (gender swaps, early deaths of characters that where unimportant anyway, some new conspiracies, etc) The Story has not deviated that far.

2. The current date seems to be around 1120-1121, in the old time line the coup didn't occur until 1123.

3. Everyone keeps forgetting about Togashi Yokuni vision about a wave shaped like a scorpions tail destroying Otosan Uchi.

The fact is that they need to push the plot in some way.

Political intrigue and clan rivalries are OK for a quick story but to get the whole empire to get involved requires a major event.

Now I don't think that the coup will be the same, But it will happen.

3 hours ago, tenchi2a said:

2. The current date seems to be around 1120-1121, in the old time line the coup didn't occur until 1123.

For the record, it's 1123, sometime in the summer.

Kachiko having the 38th Hantei ganked and putting the 39th on the throne could fulfill the vision just as easily as the old Scorpion clan coup.

17 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

For the record, it's 1123, sometime in the summer.

Did they give a date somewhere?

I was going by the old timeline and what has happen so far.