Git Gud- The Skill Plateau

By MasterShake2, in X-Wing

Git Gud- The Skill Plateau

This is one of the less talked about gaming topics, but in my experience, almost every player regardless of the game, runs into it. The players that either never experience it or drive themselves to overcome it are generally the best players in a given meta or even the world.

When you start a game everything is new. There's a steep learning curve as there's a lot to take in above and beyond the basic rules. These factors can be common lists, strategies, in FPS games it can be map layouts, in RPG it's how to build a character and what equipment you need etc. As you learn these factors, you get better at the game and steadily improve you ability to use your own elements. Then you have to start learning the elements your opposition is likely to use and finally you'll have at least a good grasp of this factor. But then something happens. You stop getting better. You just lose to the same players/lists/enemeis whatever over and over again. This is the skill plateau, the point at which your skills are no longer improving just by virtue of learning game elements. There are a number of reactions to hitting this plateau from getting frustrated with the game and quitting, to calling the game broken and everything OP to just camping out on the plateau and accepting your fate. In my experience, most players that stick with a game long enough hit this point.

This, of course, prompts the next question: How do you get past the plateau?

It's important to note that at this point, just getting games in won't be enough, because it's likely the lens your viewing those games through has flaws. The key, based on that, is refining your lens i.e. you have to look at the game a different way. When you were learning everything initially you developed ways to evaluate your victories and defeats even if you didn't realize it....but at that point you didn't have the criteria to create accurate metrics for yourself and you've probably been running on those same criteria. This is interesting because a lot of how good you get before hitting the plateau is based on your initial experiences. If you jump head first into a shark tank of a meta, you'll get the crap beat out of you a lot, but you'll also have a more accurate lens to evaluate games. If you just go super casual and play against other super casuals, you're going to plateau earlier and at a much lower skill level because your lens is so far off from the competitive aspect of the game. This is why you'll sometimes run into players that will make awesome statements about how they've been playing since the stone age and be simultaneously baffled at how crap they are at the game.

So how do you adjust the focus?

The general rule I've always used when I noticed my own skills weren't improving is to remove variables. Anyone that knows me, has definitely seen a pattern in that I'll frequently play single lists, decks whatever for extended periods of time. Removing the variable of the list allows you to assess other factors. Where possible, things that remove RNG from the equation are also good as they allow you remove that from your analysis. The thing is, your list, deck whatever is not important. All it needs to do is be basically competent and present with the opportunity to evaluate various aspects of the game without having to constantly re-adjust for the variable of your list. Also, getting better will eventually allow you to fine tune this aspect as well. The list just needs to be good enough.

For me, when I moved from X-Wing just being a side game that I had been playing for a while to more of a main game, I started playing Rey/Norra a lot. The list is generally good enough for most matches, but, more importantly for me, also has a lot of dice fixing (Norra literally makes her own dice). This allowed me a lot of freedom to re-contextualize games since I knew what list I had and generally what the dice results would be which meant breaking down a lot of factors that I simply hadn't put enough thought into before. Things like, turn 0, deployment, when to joust, how and when to turn around, maneuvering large bases, when to kite, how aggressive to be. Once you have to look at every encounter in terms of maneuvering, asteroids and deployment because other factors like lists/dice don't change it's help to focus the lens by which you are viewing the game a lot.

The biggest failing I've seen of players hitting the plateau is constantly changing lists. You'll see this happen, the player that goes from one net list to another with no real understanding and they never perform particularly well with any of them. A lot of these net lists were created by players who play and view the game so differently, that a player who's stuck will never get full value out of even the best list in the game.

"There is no plan, we're losing"

At a team tournament for Warhammer, two friends of mine were involved in a game that was going quite poorly. One of them asked "What's the plan?" to which the other responded "There is no plan, we're losing."

It's important to go into any game with a plan for success. This involves your win condition i.e. at what point do you just win. An example of this would be Norra vs. most other single ships. There are only a few in the game that can actually put meaningful damage through her defensive tech, so generally if it's tank Norra vs. one other poor bastard, she usually wins. It's also important to be able to recognize things that will interfere with your win condition and come up with a plan to deal with those. For example, if I see an enemy Poe, I don't want him to be in the 1v 1 with Norra, so he's the highest priority to kill and even if it's costly, if it gets me to my win condition, it doesn't matter.

It's always odd when I see a player basically just take the game I give them. Like if I offer a joust and they readily accept, that's usually the point where I start running the math on whether I'm wrong for committing to the joust, but frequently it just boils down to them not realizing how poor the joust option was. Just remember, if both players want to joust, one of you is wrong. It's also odd when I play games like Warmachine and my opponent doesn't seem at all determined to reach out and touch the models I'm trying to protect. Again, this calls me to question whether I'm overvaluing my models or they lack a good option to reach into the backfield...or sometimes they're just bad at the game and will aimlessly punch whatever you put in front of them because they have no real plan for victory, they're just rolling dice.

It's also important to guess your opponent's plan. Why are they setup like they are? Are they going to come at you, or try to play keep away? What are pieces you need to remove to throw their plan off? What is their target priority on your ships? Where do you think they want to fight? If you do this consistently, you'll notice something weird happening, you'll start being right and you'll also do this without specifically having to think about it.

"Why you move there? How long you play this game"

At the World Team Championships for Warmachine, a Canadian player walked his warcaster, Sorcha, onto a hill with Fog of War active making her functionally DEF 20 against shooting and magic. His opponent ran an arc node up and threw 2 hellfires, need 14's on 3D6 to hit, landed both of them and killed Sorscha for the win. If you don't feel like doing the math, that's a really unlikely assassination. Then the other player from the Russian team says "Why you move there? How long you play this game? I been playing six months, I best player in Russia. Why you not move Croes to block line of sight?" Spoiler, Croes have Stealth and wouldn't have blocked line of sight anyways. It's unclear if the guy was serious or just trolling, but it's a great example of a problem players at the plateau frequently have i.e. not properly evaluating victories.

This is, without a doubt, the most underrated skill in gaming. Players frequently write off wins as the normal way things are supposed to be and only really look at losses. Even after a victory, there are a lot of important questions to ask yourself (or your opponent if they're up for it). Was it luck? Could you do that again? Did you make any brilliant moves? If so, what made them brilliant? Did your opponent make mistakes? If so, do you think they would make them again? If they hadn't, how would it have changed the game? Was your plan successful? If not, why did you have to modify it? Is it worth looking at adding that modification to the core plan? If not, what would make it less ideal into other match-ups? Did you have parts of the list doing nothing? If so, how could you adjust it through play? If you can't adjust it through play, what would've been better for the points? How would you have tried to beat your list with your opponent's?

I definitely notice players that are actually trying to get better because frequently after a game where they get manhandled, they'll ask for advice about what they should've done. I'm usually fine offering this advice because it forces me to do what I should be doing and look closely at my own victory. Weirdly enough, I don't usually ask my opponents, but that's only because I like to figure things out for myself through trial and (a lot) of error.

This all may seem like a lot of work, but trust me, do it enough and you'll start to do it without even trying and there's a great sense of accomplishment to finally getting past the plateau and figuring things out. And, who knows, you may finally beat that local player that always trounces you.

TL,DR: you must unlearn what you have learned. In my experience there’s no such thing as luck. Do or do not, there is no try. Look at where you are, at what you are doing.

also asking why you won is just as important as asking why you lost.

And read The Art of War.

Haven’t reached my plateau yet. Still getting better after 2 years.

Me and my roommate have a tradition of after everygame, we discuss the game, our fleets and what we did right and wrong. Gives me time to smoke and and reflect. I try to do it with other players on casual nights if they allow it. Cant always do it during touneys tho.

1 hour ago, BlodVargarna said:

Haven’t reached my plateau yet. Still getting better after 2 years.

Ditto, 6 months behind you. However, I have started to analyse my play and the games I lose and win. I don't have time to play enough games to actually become good enough at the basic manoeuvring, so I need better understanding of what works and why it works. And weighted dice... ;) They'd help a lot!

Post mortems on wins and losses is the key. Did you win because you were the better player or had the better list? Or did your opponent misjudge your next move, pull a boneheaded move and got caught with his pants down? Then lost half of his squad?

Occasionally a win is due to pure dumb luck. Rarely but it does happen. Chalk that win to serendipity.

Losses will provide you with more useful information than wins will. X-wing is a lot like chess in that a bad move may not have an immediate effect but will put you in an awkward position for future turns. In some matches, there's no recovery for an early faux pas.

Improvise, adapt and overcome is a great slogan and good advice but you need to know where you effed-up first.

It's a good essay, and valid points - but also the reason I ended up preferring Armada over X-Wing. Too many tournaments when I really was outplaying my opponent, the dice decided to crap on me, and I lost half my list in a single round.

But, to the OP's essay, Armada is even more demanding of a plan. With only 6 turns, objectives that score so many points, and a 3x6 map, I've seen games won or loss without ships even really coming into combat just based on one player having an absolute superior understanding of the nature of the battle and how to control their victory conditions while denying the enemy theirs. (I mean, not often, naturally - generally, 'killing ships' is the easier way to win, but even how to do that when you only really get one or two "strong" combat passes is complex)

It's less of a problem with longer X-Wing tournaments, of course - if a single loss doesn't eliminate you from contention in the event, the odds playing out over time balance out well enough that better players do tend to rise to the top. But events short enough that one loss torpedoes your changes...*blech*. X-Wing really annoys me, that way. Best planning in the world can't hold a candle to the amount of damage dice swings can do in this game.

Edited by xanderf

OR as one panelist on the Kessel Run said The Real X-wing

No re-positioning, no turrets, No token stacking, No dice locking, X-wing and TIE Interceptors okay, everything else is a no-no.

Otherwise you are just being a Wookie loosing a game of Dejack Holigram.

Plateau? I guess I just can't relate. . .

I never play the same list twice, so I'm That Guy.

New components are always coming out when I've barely used the old.

I like to figure out how to make the best of a bad component.

Seems there is always something to learn, and I'm always getting just a little better.

Then again, being the Best Player in the Pond isn't a goal of mine.

Edited by Darth Meanie
3 hours ago, GrimmyV said:

TL,DR: you must unlearn what you have learned. In my experience there’s no such thing as luck. Do or do not, there is no try. Look at where you are, at what you are doing.

also asking why you won is just as important as asking why you lost.

And read The Art of War.

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Good article. Very informative and helpful, without being condescending.

Some practical advice on that:
Pick a good list. Stop making excuses about meta or originality. Learn to play a good list.
Stop changing lists.
Stop commenting on dice. Just don't. If your dice are poor, its likely they're not poor: You made awful mistakes that your opponent is too kind to not tell you about.

After that:
Always have a focus when you attack and defend.
Every ship you have should probably be firing on the first engagement, at the same target!
You should hit 0 unexpected rocks all game.
Try and get a shot on every turn for every ship, as much as possible.

Most players can't even handle the 4 things listed above.

They TL when they're also going to be defending... They hit rocks, have stress when they didn't need to and don't have focus. Only 2/3 of their ships attack the first engagement. Their fire is completely staggered on different defenders.

They hit rocks. Their angle judgement is poor and they constantly lose shots. Then rage and complain about dice, not noticing they used green dice x2 as much as they used red dice.

Of course they lose.

@MasterShake2 Your piece of advice is one of the best written on this forum about proper mindset in learning how to play this game. I would definetly suggest new players or those willing to get better to read this.
I geniuenly think your original post should be included in this list:
Index of useful links

27 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Most players can't even handle the 4 things listed above.

They TL when they're also going to be defending... They hit rocks, have stress when they didn't need to and don't have focus. Only 2/3 of their ships attack the first engagement. Their fire is completely staggered on different defenders.

They hit rocks. Their angle judgement is poor and they constantly lose shots. Then rage and complain about dice, not noticing they used green dice x2 as much as they used red dice.

Of course they lose.

To be honest. Those people you usually only meet in the first round of any tournament and usually not even there.
If your local area qualifies to describe most players like that than your local area has a lot more problems than just bad x-wing players.

1 minute ago, SEApocalypse said:

To be honest. Those people you usually only meet in the first round of any tournament and usually not even there.
If your local area qualifies to describe most players like that than your local area has a lot more problems than just bad x-wing players.

Losing the first game is basically 50% of the players. Therefore, by your own assessment, these are 50% of all the players who already are good enough to go to the tournament in the first place.

I don't think my local area is full of good players, but I think its really not what we're talking about here, and I think its unncessary that you point this out, even if true.

37 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Good article. Very informative and helpful, without being condescending.

Some practical advice on that:
Pick a good list. Stop making excuses about meta or originality. Learn to play a good list.
Stop changing lists.
Stop commenting on dice. Just don't. If your dice are poor, its likely they're not poor: You made awful mistakes that your opponent is too kind to not tell you about.

So much this.
I don't want to brag or anything but I am one of the better players in my local community - I heard so many times how unlucky my opponents rolls were, or how overpowered my dice are. But the truth is more often than not my enemies lose because of their decisions, sometimes even before dials were set (it should be noted that obstacle placement and proper list building are one of the most important things in this game and those things greatly shapes the way you will play the game). I never point this out to them because I don't want to be condescending.

27 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Losing the first game is basically 50% of the players.

Wouldn't it be EXACTLY 50% of the players?? :P

19 minutes ago, Embir82 said:

So much this.
I don't want to brag or anything but I am one of the better players in my local community - I heard so many times how unlucky my opponents rolls were , or how overpowered my dice are. But the truth is more often than not my enemies lose because of their decisions , sometimes even before dials were set (it should be noted that obstacle placement and proper list building are one of the most important things in this game and those things greatly shapes the way you will play the game). I never point this out to them because I don't want to be condescending.

For me, this was a huge step in my learning curve: seeing that "bad dice" was often a direct consequence of a decision I had made earlier. When I started looking at the game this way, I realized how much less random the game is, and how much more decision making affects you later in the round, or even a turn or two later, when it's time to toss those dice.

Some of the choices are not even necessarily bad "in a vacuum," but if you had made a different one, you could have influenced the dice instead of accepting the result.

Done nicely, I think this would be a great service to an opponent who is willing to learn.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Some practical advice on that:
Pick a good list. Stop making excuses about meta or originality. Learn to play a good list.
Stop changing lists.
Stop commenting on dice. Just don't. If your dice are poor, its likely they're not poor: You made awful mistakes that your opponent is too kind to not tell you about.

After that:
Always have a focus when you attack and defend.
Every ship you have should probably be firing on the first engagement, at the same target!
You should hit 0 unexpected rocks all game.
Try and get a shot on every turn for every ship, as much as possible.

Yeah, I'll never do the first part, but conquering the "After Thats" was a big milestone for me feeling like a hand a handle on this game.

Edited by Darth Meanie
17 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Wouldn't it be EXACTLY 50% of the players?? :P

For me, this was a huge step in my learning curve: seeing that "bad dice" was often a direct consequence of a decision I had made earlier. When I started looking at the game this way, I realized how much less random the game is, and how much more decision making affects you later in the round, or even a turn or two later, when it's time to toss those dice.

Some of the choices are not even necessarily bad "in a vacuum," but if you had made a different one, you could have influenced the dice instead of accepting the result.

Done nicely, I think this would be a great service to an opponent who is willing to learn.

Yeah, I'll never do the first part, but conquering the "After Thats" was a big milestone for me feeling like a hand a handle on this game.

That's up to you. But generally, I can't get the nuance of multiple matchups and knowing all the nuances of beating high T1 lists unless I've played about 5-10 games with a list.

3 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Post mortems on wins and losses is the key. Did you win because you were the better player or had the better list? Or did your opponent misjudge your next move, pull a boneheaded move and got caught with his pants down? Then lost half of his squad?

Occasionally a win is due to pure dumb luck. Rarely but it does happen. Chalk that win to serendipity.

Losses will provide you with more useful information than wins will. X-wing is a lot like chess in that a bad move may not have an immediate effect but will put you in an awkward position for future turns. In some matches, there's no recovery for an early faux pas.

Improvise, adapt and overcome is a great slogan and good advice but you need to know where you effed-up first.

I think the key to avoiding the plateau is to fly and practice with the things you don’t use often. Other factions, other ships and pilots. I prefer rebel aces. I’ve avoided bombs and turrets and swarms. Now I’m playing hide things to grow and expand.

1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

So much this.
I don't want to brag or anything but I am one of the better players in my local community - I heard so many times how unlucky my opponents rolls were, or how overpowered my dice are. But the truth is more often than not my enemies lose because of their decisions, sometimes even before dials were set (it should be noted that obstacle placement and proper list building are one of the most important things in this game and those things greatly shapes the way you will play the game). I never point this out to them because I don't want to be condescending.

You are familiar with Lady Luck for X-Wing Vassal , though, right? You upload your match log, and it spits out what your actual rolls were vs expected rolls. I have , in fact, lost several games where my 'hit' dice results were half the expected result (worst case, to date, a game with 48 expected 'hits' based on number of dice rolled that I actually got only 16) or my opponents evade results were crazy hot (think I've seen a match where they got 80% evades, which given evades only being 3/8 of a die's faces is...difficult to overcome).

Sometimes, it really is just the dice. That actually does happen, and it decides games, and if you are in an event where a single loss eliminates you from the final rounds...that burns.

1 hour ago, Embir82 said:

So much this.
I don't want to brag or anything but I am one of the better players in my local community - I heard so many times how unlucky my opponents rolls were, or how overpowered my dice are. But the truth is more often than not my enemies lose because of their decisions, sometimes even before dials were set (it should be noted that obstacle placement and proper list building are one of the most important things in this game and those things greatly shapes the way you will play the game). I never point this out to them because I don't want to be condescending.

I always think back to the game my dad and I played. My Moldy Crow with Kyle as the pilot and Luke were right next to each other. He sent Vader and a TIE Interceptor screaming at range 2-1 at me.

God was that a mistake. Not only were his ships utterly incapable of one-shotting Luke and Kyle, but I had a Blaster Turret with ample focus to spend and Luke ready to pound them out at range 1.

He blamed the dice. But as scary as it was, my Kyle and its Escort had already won the moment he got into arc.

By far the hardest thing related to this is finding consistent local games in person against multiple like minded opponents who can separate their occasional frustration with parts of the meta or extremely rare variance from their drive to get better at X-Wing while having fun.

Edited by Boom Owl
6 hours ago, Pooleman said:

I think the key to avoiding the plateau is to fly and practice with the things you don’t use often. Other factions, other ships and pilots. I prefer rebel aces. I’ve avoided bombs and turrets and swarms. Now I’m playing hide things to grow and expand.

Doing this is part of Sun Tzu' s "know your enemy". If you know how the ship's behave (movement wise), you're less likely to get a bad surprise.

I don't think you can avoid a plateau. The ultimate one is where your skill and ability peak. You get no better regardless of effort. Smaller plateaus could include being really bad at squad building and/or anticipating your opponent's next move. Better squad building can be taught to some extent. More importantly is to get the to think about what he's doing.

Anticipation can't be taught but a player can be shown what to look for. The whole routine of "what's his best move vs my best move". Or his best move vs my potential worst.

There's different things that can be used to shorten the time each plateau lasts but everyone will hit the big one.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:


Stop commenting on dice. Just don't. If your dice are poor, its likely they're not poor: You made awful mistakes that your opponent is too kind to not tell you about.

IMO that isn't 100% true. You shouldn't comment on dice (the moment you decide to play a game with dice you implicitly accept sometimes the odds won't be in your favor) but sometimes your dice are poor. Now, x-wing isn't yahtzee, you can't really lose 100-0, complete landslide, because you had bad dice. However, you might lose a close game because you had bad dice at a given moment, and that was 'the straw that broke the camel's back', tipping the game in your opponent's favor.

48 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

IMO that isn't 100% true. You shouldn't comment on dice (the moment you decide to play a game with dice you implicitly accept sometimes the odds won't be in your favor) but sometimes your dice are poor. Now, x-wing isn't yahtzee, you can't really lose 100-0, complete landslide, because you had bad dice. However, you might lose a close game because you had bad dice at a given moment, and that was 'the straw that broke the camel's back', tipping the game in your opponent's favor.

Hey look, a bunch of people agree with you. I don't. I've literally never ever ever seen a game where dice were the overwhelming factor (beyond skill or decision making), and I've played since Wave3, against a huge variety of dice whiners.

You choose to believe whatever. But I only comment on dice to make sour losers feel better. And I mean it as shallowly as the best lies I ever speak.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hey look, a bunch of people agree with you. I don't. I've literally never ever ever seen a game where dice were the overwhelming factor (beyond skill or decision making), and I've played since Wave3, against a huge variety of dice whiners.

You choose to believe whatever. But I only comment on dice to make sour losers feel better. And I mean it as shallowly as the best lies I ever speak.

So you never had a situation where you made the tactically and statistically correct choice only to have the dice not cooperate?

I get where you're coming from,most of the time when you lose you can trace it to a mistake. Not always though; sometimes none of the opponents will make a significant enough mistake and the deadlock is broken by dice.

I play Vassal a lot, and that gives me the chance to pace through and analyze the game thoroughly. Most of the time I can trace the win/loss to skill, lists, mistakes, etc. Not always though.

To give you an example of the last Vassal game I feel was decided by dice:

Triple imperial alpha (me) vs. Attani triple Jumps. Pretty balanced game (some minor mistakes on both sides, but nothing really game altering), comes down to full HP Vader vs. 2 JM5s, one with 1 HP, the other with 3-4 HP, all torps spent. I manage to BR into range 1 if the 1 HP JM5k while putting a rock between me and the other one. I'm rolling 3 unmodded reds + the ATC Crit vs 2 greens and a Focus. If I roll 2 or 3 hits, he's dead. If I roll 1 hit, he needs no blanks on his greens to survive, so I feel the odds are pretty well stacked in my favor (plan was kill that JM then turtle while slowly eating away at the other). Not only did Vader fail fail to kill the JM, but he proceeded to take 4 damage from a 3v3 range 1 shot and a 5v2 range 3 shot through a rock (I rolled no evades on 8 greens). In hindsight, what I did still seems like the optimal choice, and it should have worked; it just didn't.