Sdrolion said:

Yes. Although it's probably not a big deal one way or the other (since the doom track is short).

Also, just remember, if you want Cultists to go somewhere other than the Outskirts, you need to specify where (since there is no rule for that kind of situation).

Your odds of drawing a cultist is about 10% with Black Goat (closer to 6% without) each cultist taken as a trophy represents slightly less than a 1% change to that so it could quickly become rare without a way to funnel them back into play. I'd say endless is good in this case.

Avi_dreader said:

Not sure that I entirely get what you're saying with the second part: if cultists don't count towards the monster limit, wouldn't that mean they could be added to the board normally even if the limit had been reached? They don't interact with the Limit in any way...that's how I would read it.

Veet said:

Yeah, I agree. I'll add that on the next edit.

Sdrolion said:

There are spells allowing you to move monsters it the Outskirts, and even a Corruption - I think - that, whenever activated, allows you to switch a monster from the board with one in the Outskirts

Julia said:

That I don't really have a problem with. I just don't want them to get popped into the outskirts just because the monster limit was reached. If it's the result of good player tactics, that's fine by me.

Sdrolion said:

I don't think so. If I remember correctly, rules as written has monsters drawn from the cup going to the outskirts once you are at the monster limit. The thing about spawn monsters is they're not designed to go into the cup. You're tweaking the rules by putting spawn type monsters into the cup, and you need to clarify the altered drawing mechanism, or it's ambiguous (and will be up to players judgements about what they think is best). A quick glance at the manual leads me to think that this is still the case (you need to do a blind draw, and the Cultists will end up in the Outskirts with normal rules).

Avi_dreader said:

Hm. See, to me, if it said that cultists ignored the monster limit, then if I was at the monster limit, when I randomly drew a monster, I'd look at it, see if it was a cultist, and if it was, I'd put it wherever the card that caused the draw said to put it. If it wasn't a cultist, I'd put it at the outskirts.

If that's not the way people would do it, though, then yeah, I'd have to clarify somehow. Surprises me, though...to me, if something ignores the monster limit it ignores the monster limit, whether that means that it's not counted for sending other things to the outskirts, or that it doesn't go to the outskirts when the limit is full.

I'm not making cultists spawn at any special time or anything. I'm just saying "If you draw a cultist when you are already at the monster limit, it still goes on the board where it would have gone if you weren't at the limit. And you don't count cultists towards the monster limit for any purposes."

Sdrolion said:

Basically the problem is that "ignores the monster limit" is vague and conflicts with the rules as written. I probably would play it the same way (in fact, I have in the past), but I figured out that to deal with the text so it actually lacks ambiguity, you need to specify a location for cultists in the outskirts. E.g. "When a Cultist is placed in the Outskirts, place it ____ instead."

Sdrolion said:

Right, but that's not what you're saying ;'D

These are intuitive stretches. I guarantee you, some people will find them counter-intuitive or at the least unclear.

FYI, I think that many people will play it as you've said, and they will if they see this discussion thread, but ideally, things constructed should be done without needing extra textual clarification, and they should be made in a way so that *everyone* with a grasp of the rules will know how to use them, and so that there will not be any doubts about the correct way of using something.

Avi_dreader said:

"When a Cultist is placed in the Outskirts, place it in Arkham instead?"

The thing is that this isn't right either: I do want you to be able to move cultists to the outskirts by casting a spell that would do so. There are only two things I want to oppose:

1. The monster limit is full, so the just-drawn cultist goes to the outskirts.

2. Cultists are included in the count for the monster limit.

I'm absolutely fine with someone casting, say, "Curse of Darkness" and shunting a cultist off to the Outskirts with it.

Thus why I was writing it as just ignoring all rules related to the monster limit when dealing with cultists.

If necessary, I can write it out in long form, but I figured the short form would be clear and save space. If you really think it's needed, though, I guess I can write it basically as this: "Cultists do not count towards the monster limit. If a cultist is drawn when at the monster limit, the cultist is still placed at the location indicated by the card."

I just find that a little odd to have to write that out, because that's how I'd naturally do it anyway if I was supposed to ignore monster limit rules for a certain monster type. :-P I mean, if I tell you "ignore monster limit rules for cultist" and you draw a cultist, see you're at the monster limit, and put the cultist in the outskirts, you're not ignoring monster limit rules for cultists. You're obeying them. :-P

Maybe this:

"Cultists do not count towards the monster limit. If a cultist is drawn when the monster limit has been reached, place it as though the monster limit had not been reached."

Sdrolion said:

Perfect.

Sdrolion said:

Well, the monster is already placed in the outskirts before you even know it's a Cultist. That's part of the problem. Its location is designated blindly.

Avi_dreader said:

That's not actually a problem. You draw the monster, set it down in the outskirts, and then see what it was. Oh, it's a cultist. You take it out of the outskirts and put it back on the map wherever it should actually go. :-P

Okay. So, just to make sure I have this right, here's what the card will now read.

The Blessed One

Combat Mod: -∞

Worshippers: Cultists are elusive , endless, and have combat modifier -3 and toughness 2. Cultists do not count towards the monster limit. If a cultist is drawn when the monster limit has been reached, place it as though the monster limit had not been reached. If an investigator fails a combat check against a cultist, he is devoured and a random monster is drawn and placed on this card.

Power: Stillness and Silence :

• Upkeep: If a cultist is in the same area as any other monster type, place that monster trophy on this card.
• Mythos: If at least 3 toughness is on this card, choose an Arkham neighborhood in which to close all locations. Return the trophies on this card to the box . If all Arkham neighborhoods are now closed, the Blessed One awakens.

Start of Battle: Peace at Last: If the Blessed One awakens, all life ends. The investigators are devoured .

----

That sound like it incorporates all of what we've discussed here? I took out the flavor text (cry) in Worshippers, so I don't think the new text will do too much to readability. (Really wish that AOs had some space on them for story text like Investigators do.) Anyway: this should cover preventing cultists from being drawn directly into the outskirts, and clarify what happens if all of Arkham closes.

Also, is anyone confused by the meaning of "Arkham neighborhood?" What I mean is a neighborhood on the base board (Arkham) only: not Kingsport, Dunwich, or Innsmouth.

Sdrolion said:

That's not a problem if you aren't A)highly literal B)hypercorrect in making rules interpretations ;')

Unfortunately "Arkham Neighborhood" is a meaningless term. Even "base board" is kind of vague. "Main board" is somewhat clearer. There is no official term differentiating the boards, I think. Unless you call it the non-expansion board. That is unambiguous.

Sdrolion said:

I edited the card in the above text to save a bit of space, decrease ambiguity, and increase theme (this actually wasted a bit of space when I refer to the Ancient One as The Blessed One instead of as "this card").

Also, if I sent you a picture, would you mind posting an alternate artwork version of the AO?

Avi_dreader said:

I'll probably switch some of the "The Blessed One" notes back to "this card" where it denotes just a mechanical or tracking effect, since this will be rather long.

The reword seems to mostly work, though I like "if" for the monster toughness and "when" for the neighborhoods being closed. If it's "if they are all closed," that makes it sound as though the Blessed One awakens if all neighborhoods are closed and then you have to close another one. "When" makes it sound like it happens as soon as the last one closes.

I'm also not keen on the wording of the upkeep section, as I think it makes it sound like the cultist is supposed to be on the Blessed One too.

As far as an alternate picture: I don't want to have multiple versions up for something as simple as a picture, so I'll look at the picture, and if I like it, I'll make it the new artwork when I do the reupload. Otherwise, I won't. I do provide the eon files for all of my stuff, so if you want a different picture for your personal copy, feel free to download the Eon file instead of the image and change the picture before you print it (but please do not post an alternate version to the forums). Sorry, but this thing's a creature I made up, and I chose that artwork for the feeling I wanted to convey with it.

I will say I do have some herald ideas that could go along with this AO, and that would need a more actively frightening picture, so if I don't use it for the AO I may for the herald.

Here we are.

The concept is fun, but the wording on the Stillness and Silence rule is kind of confusing. I think it means that you keep putting monsters on the sheet, and then when there are three or more toughness, you take them all off and close one neighborhood, then when all neighborhoods are closed, the ancient one awakens, right?

Maybe worded something more like:

Mythos: If there are three or more toughness worth of monsters on this card, return the monsters to the cup and choose a neighborhood. All locations in that neighborhood are closed. If all locations on the board are closed, the ancient one awakens.

Now, I personally think an 11 doom token with no final battle is a little rough, but definitely within the limits (Rhan-Tegoth is 11 token and practically unbeatable in my experience). It seems to me like with the threat of a nasty devouring most players will just let cultists be. Even so, I can't imagine all that many monsters ending up on the same place as a cultist, maybe one or two a game, tops. Maybe change cultists to fast, and change the upkeep rule to "Mythos: If a cultist is ever on the same space as another monster, that monster is removed and placed on this board." Maybe even start the game out with a cultist added to the first gate opening to ensure there'll be at least one.

But very fun idea, I like it. Where did you get the theme idea?

MustardTheTroops said:

That's correct, with one exception. You don't check how much toughness is on the card until the Mythos phase. Thus, it's impossible for more than one neighborhood to close per turn.

MustardTheTroops said:

That's a decent way of stating it, but does change the rules. First, monsters need to go to the box, not the cup: this way, you're also in some more danger from the number of possible monsters shrinking. It's a minor danger, but do remember that if you have to draw a monster when there's none left to draw, the AO awakens. Secondly, the AO only closes locations on the Arkham board...not Kingsport, Dunwich, or Innsmouth.

MustardTheTroops said:

It is intended to be a pretty hard one just from the fact that you have to get a seal/close victory. I agree that the cultists probably won't cause much trouble...unless you get a monster surge, I expect. If you get one of those, I theorize that it could cause you some very big problems.

I didn't make the cultists grab monsters in the Mythos phase because it would lead to questions about when they actually do it. Having it happen during the upkeep phase made it clear when it was supposed to happen. Additionally, I had trouble limiting it to one neighborhood closing per turn, then. However, if it ends up happening too infrequently, I may explore the option you talked about, as having it happen immediately as soon as they're on the same space at all seems pretty clear. I guess I could easily switch the neighborhood closing to the upkeep phase and keep it to just one neighborhood maximum per turn that way.

As far as the idea to leave cultists be...that's kind of the idea. I'm hoping players will choose to try to get rid of the other monsters before the cultists get them, rather than going after the cultists. But really, either is effective.

I'm planning a Herald that will make this more frequent via making cultists actually specifically hunt other monsters instead of moving randomly (kind of a Tulzscha thing but for monster hunting).

MustardTheTroops said:

There's an RPG I play in with my friends, more of a storytelling thing than a game. My character in it is a priest of this order called the Tiamaeku, a group of death-worshipping assassins who believe that people will only pass through the "gate" into the afterlife if they die at the proper time. They believe that something out there is preventing the proper progress of death, and that it is their duty to ensure people shuffle off this mortal coil properly. My particular character has left the group, but is still holding to some of their beliefs.

I started thinking about what the Tiamaeku would do as AH characters, and decided that they could either be assassins that ruthlessly hunted down investigators, or could be assassins that pursued their own mysterious goal. I liked the second idea better (but the first may end up as another Herald not attached to this AO). I decided that this was an extremist group of the Tiamaeku who are channeling the power of death on a larger scale than the group normally permits. They would appear on some level helpful, but if you let them alone it could get really bad.

The other main idea here was to make monster hunting more important. Normally you can afford to let it build a bit, but ideally, with this card, if you do, you could see neighborhoods start to close.

In the RPG, the Blessed One may or may not actually exist...I honestly haven't decided myself. In this, he does...but he may not be pleased with how his power is being used. I've got some ideas for a guardian that suggests that the AO powers are the Tiamaeku harnessing his power against his will and that he's trying to help the investigators stop it.

The card text is way too packed. I'm worried it'll be illegible at printing size. Is it possible to move some of the rules text to the right hand column where final battle information is usually kept (maybe the part about how he wakes up if everything is closed)? Or is Strange Aeons not set up that way?

Sdrolion said:

I've already addressed the other points privately, but this one I think is worth going into a bit more detail since it could save a line of space. The only way it reads that way is if you are misreading it as a sentence fragment. There is no way for the sentence as written to mean what you said to anyone whose first language is Arkham jargon. Seriously though, it's an incomplete sentence if you read it that way, and the sentence becomes nonsense.

Also, I'm not sure, but I think you have a space between "endless" and ","

Also, I left out a comma. This should read, "and, if one is drawn when the monster limit has been reached,"

Avi_dreader said:

Doesn't work that way that I'm aware of, unfortunately. I could maybe just put that info under the "start of battle" heading, but that wouldn't be a natural place to look for it.

However, I did a test print of it before I uploaded, and it did come out readable.