How about, give Matsu Tsuko a sword and she'll find someone who deserves death for insulting her?

That's not quite fair to her, given her good behavior recently. If she can control her bloodthirstiness then surely we can, too.

3 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I thought it was “give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but, teach a man to fish and he’ll spend all day in a boat drinking sake.”

I prefer Terry Pratchett’s twist:

“Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day, but set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.”

it's not trying to use bushido to justify revenge. It's explaining how bushido is involved in revenge, because if you don't seek revenge, you fail some tenets.

If you want to counter my point don't tell me that I'm trying to bend bushido, try to develop by telling me how revenge isn't bushido.

A small nuance I'll agree though after reflexion. Vengeance is bushido only if avenging a slight on your master or benefactor. A slight on you must be accepted and borne by you.

But then your vassals will be expected to avenge you.

1 hour ago, Nitenman said:

it's not trying to use bushido to justify revenge. It's explaining how bushido is involved in revenge, because if you don't seek revenge, you fail some tenets.

I’ll have to agree with Manchu. Bushido does not seek revenge, it seeks justice.

If your brother died in a fair duel, you don’t need to avenge him. If your brother died in a duel where the other guy brought a Tetsubo and smashed his head, yes, you seek revenge, or better said, retribution, because that duel was a shame and an insult, and you have to restitute your brother’s honor. That’s justice.

I'd say the whole mess up then is on using the word vengeance (or revenge) then. It's redress or reparation, if you prefer. But the finality is the same.

The 47 Ronin is indeed bushido, it's redress for a slight on your master.

To catch on the duel brother with Tetsubo point, Hitomi's hate on Yakamo and her will of revenge isn't Bushido, it's vendetta. Because despite the love she had for her brother, he wasn't her lord. It's family feud.

Yakamo insulted Satsu's wife, he called for a duel, that's justice.

The duel was accepted by Satsu so it's a fair duel, if he refused on the ground of Yakamo coming with a tetsubo, he would have had reason. But then Yakamo who was the rude one not one bit respecting bushido would have branded him coward.

The duel happened, Yakamo won, honor matter is closed. Hitomi's wants revenge not because the tetsubo was dishonorable, but because Yakamo gruesomely killed her beloved brother and humiliated her (I could have killed you little girl...)

the drama also stems from the fact that Satsu purposefully lost because Yokuni revealed him that Yakamo would be crab thunder, thus winning the duel and killing Yakamo would doom Rokugan.

the issue is that even if you consider redress isn't strictly bushido per se, it's still a strong cultural expectation.

basically sometimes vengeance is Bushido, sometimes it isn't.

And the funniest is we're even discussing passionately not on proper bushido, but on a somewhat westernized conception of a Bushido expressed in a fantasy setting where lot was established on rule if cool more than Japanese cultural accuracy.

in Rokugan, Bushido was written in a time of strife at the dawn of the empire and thus is supposed to have shaped the empire. In historical Japan, Bushido is a philosophical construct codified during peaceful times (compared to the sengoku) to give directions to a warrior caste that became over time obsolete in a unified Japan.

Rokugan's problem is trying to fit the Bushido concept backward from how it actually manifested.

I'd say none of us can anyway be correct because bushido is at the same time your own view on your actions and the view society has on your actions.

if Bushido was something exact to define, there wouldn't be samurai drama.

PS: someone said earlier that if a lion was tricked by a scorpion he should remember Akodo's words: samurai is the judge of his own honor. It made sense 1000 years ago, when samurai society was building up.

thousand years of Lion tradition and ancestor worship make it now that in Lion culture, your honor isn't really your own, it's something you received from your ancestors, and you are only safekeeping it to pass it to your descendants.

Bushido [in L5R] is a moral philosophy of conscience. It is separate from the social conventions of Rokugan ( e.g. , laws, rituals, customs) that have developed over time. Bushido is primarily introspective: what does being a samurai require of oneself? That's where we look to the seven virtues. And none of them entail pursuing satisfaction of grudges, i.e. , revenge in the sense of vendetta. That is not a matter of justice . It seems like we all agree on that point.

In this case, plainly, there is nothing to be avenged (in the sense of justice) as to Akodo Arasou's death. This is just (a) personal grief manifested as will to violence and (b) a political opportunity for those pushing for war. Akodo Toturi is wise to ignore this. It has nothing to do with Bushido.

Now, as to the matter of Crane seizing Toshi Ranbo - this is where we are talking about the politics of the Empire, which is essentially a matter of the balance of power among the Great Clans. Here, it's oversimplistic nonsense to argue Bushido requires this policy or that policy. Again, Akodo Toturi is wise to ignore that kind of argument.

Yes we should always keep in mind that we are NOT talking about historical Japanese philiosphy here. Nor are we talking about the politics of the Sengoku Jidai. In Rokugan, the domination of any of the Great Clans over the others is abhorrent. This moral fact preexists Bushido.