New Lore - Toshi Ranbo stuff

By SolidusPrime, in L5R LCG: Lore Discussion

25 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

I think the big stretch in the story is the Dragon, more than the Crab.

I mean, why they’re supposed to be so interested in the city? Sure, they always have the old “Because Yokuni saw it in a prophetic vision” excuse, but that gets old pretty quick, and they have to justify their claim to the other clans and in court.

Maybe they're not interested in it. Maybe everyone just assumes they are because why else would they be coming out of their mountains with a huge army now of all times. So the Emperor gives it to them to placate them and they're left scratching their heads as to what's going on.

Edited by shineyorkboy
1 hour ago, shineyorkboy said:

Maybe they're not interested in it. Maybe everyone just assumes they are because why else would they be coming out of their mountains with a huge army now of all times. So the Emperor gives it to them to placate them and they're left scratching their heads as to what's going on.

Dragon Commander: "Hey guys, we heard there were free tac-"

Emperor: "Congratulations. Here's your new city."

5 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

I think the big stretch in the story is the Dragon, more than the Crab.

I mean, why they’re supposed to be so interested in the city?

Geography.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Geography.

I thought the Dragon was more interested in Philosophy.

I guess there are primary belligerents and secondary belligerents.

The primaries are obviously Crane and Lion.

Unicorn supports Crane because the Lion is a common enemy. Phoenix will support Lion because they oppose nasty gaijin magic.

Crab are more likely to side with Lion than Crane; put another way, Lion will have an easier time bartering Crab support for jade than Crane would (because Crane won't speak to Yasuki negotiators). On the other hand, Crab hardly has power to spare. So maybe this will be more of an opportunity for Yoritomo via Yasuki Taka.

Scorpion will deal with both sides while feigning neutrality.

I don't think Dragon has any interest, except in expediting the conflict so the Empire can turn to graver matters.

Edited by Manchu
13 hours ago, Manchu said:

I guess there are primary belligerents and secondary belligerents.

The primaries are obviously Crane and Lion.

Unicorn supports Crane because the Lion is a common enemy. Phoenix will support Lion because they oppose nasty gaijin magic.

But will they?

True, Crane and Lion are the ones (we know of) staking an outright claim to the city, but...

1. If the Lion kick the Crane out and the Unicorn subsequently take it, they're not going to be keen to simply hand it over, even to reasonably good allies.


2. The Phoenix interest doesn't seem to be in acquiring the city... but surely, surely they would be better stewards for this important place than two Clans who are almost constantly at odds.... or that's what they'll tell everyone. Also note that while I have no use for the Crane, they're historically fairly close with the Phoenix, so it would be an error to say that the Phoenix will necessarily favor the Lion over the Crane. They may, in fact, use their relatively good relations with both parties to offer themselves as a compromise candidate.

13 hours ago, Manchu said:

Crab are more likely to side with Lion than Crane; put another way, Lion will have an easier time bartering Crab support for jade than Crane would (because Crane won't speak to Yasuki negotiators). On the other hand, Crab hardly has power to spare. So maybe this will be more of an opportunity for Yoritomo via Yasuki Taka.

I think any Crab moves for the city will be either purely political... or a "let's pull some guys from the Wall and force-march them North, since a new jade mine is worth risking a lot for."

13 hours ago, Manchu said:

Scorpion will deal with both sides while feigning neutrality.

I don't know that the Scorpion will bother feigning neutrality so much as, "you can deal with us... or we can cut a deal with them. Your call."

13 hours ago, Manchu said:

I don't think Dragon has any interest, except in expediting the conflict so the Empire can turn to graver matters.

Or to secure a major city near their traditional territory as a declaration that they're done just hanging out in the mountains.

Crane is in a terrible position. All else being equal, they are no match for the Lion on the battlefield. Moreover, the Crane economy is strained by natural calamity as well as Mantis predations. Their alliance with the Unicorn is quite shallow, resting entirely on common enmity against Lion. But at the same time, Hotaru's greatest ally in the Empire may well be the Lion Champion himself. Restraining Lion ascendancy is Crane's best argument to the Emperor (and his Emerald Champion) and the other Great Clans.

Unicorn would be unwise to seize Toshi Ranbo from Crane, whether directly or indirectly. This could well align Crane and Lion against Unicorn. Unicorn's best strategy is to keep Crane and Lion at odds because Unicorn faces no sure thing against Lion in a real war - especially with Phoenix running interception at court/with the Emerald Champion. Most importantly, Toshi Ranbo is not the aim of Unicorn's policy; Unicorn seeks to end Lion claims to old Ki-rin territories.

Crab will support whoever is easier to work with regarding the rumored jade and as between Crane and Lion that should easily be Lion. This is a pressure point where Scorpion may seek to intervene. But Scorpion could never be content to play one side when it can play both. Kachiko might have some ambition as to the city but Shoju will reject such ostentation.

Dragon are in no position to strike out and have no incentive to do so. Nothing in Toshi Ranbo will solve Dragon's problems.

Unicorn and Crane has been allies since the return of the former to the Empire, so I wouldn’t say their alliance is “shallow”.

Not only that, but the one who cannot afford to lose the favor of the other is the Crane. With their current economic position and their much smaller army, they rely on the Unicorn too much, military speaking. And I think they will happily hand the city to an ally than to the Lion. Why else they wanted to support the Unicorn petition of Toshi Ranbo becoming an Imperial city?

Now, the Unicorn could use that as leverage against the Crane. “We help you against Lion, but then the city is ours”, which I can see the Crane agreeing with, because they still can have a lot of political influence inside the city. And then, the Unicorn can use the city in negotiations with the Lion, in the case the war has not wear down the Lion army enough to cease their conflict with the Ki-Rin. “Hey, we will give you the city and you stop your claims to our territories”.

Sure, that’ll suppose a blow in their relationships with the Crane, but is better than war.

Oh, and for the Crab, I think it’s easy to see they’ll side with the Lion. I mean, they have to march their armored troops trough either Lion or Crane lands, and... well, I picture the conversation going like this:

-Hida Kisada: Ok, we’re going to help the Crane. So, we’ll take our army, and march trough Crane lands until we reach Toshi Ranbo.Then...

-Yasuki Taka: We cannot do that, Kisada-ue.

-Kisada: Mmm? Why not?

-Taka: Well, Kakita Yoshi fears that the vision of an army marching trough their lands can upset their people, cause them anxiety.

-Kisada: The fool said what?!

-Taka: Yeah, he does not want to frighten the peasants.

-Kisada: Ok, ok... let’s think... Did you suggest walking more casually?

-Taka: I did indeed, my lord. It’s still a no.

-Kisada: Well, to Jigoku with them, then! We’re with the Lion in this one, now.

I call the Crane-Unicorn alliance shallow because it is only based on fluctuating political needs rather than deep-seated cultural alignment.

Agreed that Crane are reliant on Unicorn to counter the Lion military threat. That's part of my analysis of Crane being in a bad position.

Kakita Yuri requested that his lord the Imperial Chancellor give the Unicorn petition priotity in hopes that Toshi Ranbo shifting to Imperial administration would diffuse the looming Crane-Lion War so that Yuri's daughter Asami (who is hostage to the Lion) could be safely returned.

This would also free Unicorn from coming to Crane's defense in said war, hence why they intended to petition. Unicorn seems to believe it can handle Lion as to the claims on the Ki-rin lands, but of couse Altansarni has heated this up (separetely from the question of Toshi Ranbo) by dishonorably breaking her word.

On 2/7/2018 at 12:36 PM, Huzbek said:

The art is so awesome! Here's to hoping we get a neutral Emerald Champ Toturi next Cycle.

Sidetrack from the topic of the thread, but maybe Emerald Champion Toturi in the Phoenix Clan pack???

Back on topic, as someone who is a Lion player, a Lion fan, and a Toturi fan, I loved the story. This is the Toturi that I always felt he was: patient, calculating, and able to find other solutions to appease both sides. I completely understand where Sumiko is coming from in her actions regarding Toturi, based on how the current lore has already established Satsume to have acted.

Simply put, another good fiction that keeps me eager for the next glimpse into Rokugan.

On 2/12/2018 at 1:40 AM, OokamiGauru said:

Back on topic, as someone who is a Lion player, a Lion fan, and a Toturi fan, I loved the story. This is the Toturi that I always felt he was: patient, calculating, and able to find other solutions to appease both sides.

Has Toturi really found any solutions though? Don't get me wrong, I want to like the guy, but what has he really accomplished for the Lion so far? The more I read the more I tend to favor Tsuko's point of view.

20 hours ago, Eisenmerc said:

Has Toturi really found any solutions though? Don't get me wrong, I want to like the guy, but what has he really accomplished for the Lion so far? The more I read the more I tend to favor Tsuko's point of view.

Just from this story alone: Kaede and through her, the Phoenix, want to study the spiritual unrest around the city. Crane will take offense to another clan getting involved. Solution: Go on his own as Emerald Champion, look into the issue the Phoenix want to look into, and keep all sides as satisfied with the solution as possible.

Is he perfect as a character, no. But do I think that they are on the right path, absolutely.

Holding the clan at bay while powerful leaders are all but howling for blood is not an accomplishment?

8 hours ago, Manchu said:

Holding the clan at bay while powerful leaders are all but howling for blood is not an accomplishment?

That assumes holding back your own clan is a good thing. The Crane have taken Lion lands, and killed Toturi's brother. Bushido demands revenge. By holding the Lion back I feel Toturi will only be causing more problems for himself, and the empire, down the road.

We are led to believe he has some grand master plan but I haven't seen any signs of a payoff coming over the horizon.

"Bushido demands revenge"? Is revenge one of the seven virtues?

Arasou was not murdered. He died in battle - something all bushi face. Similalrly, the Crane seized Toshi Ranbo because Lion pressed Crane on the Osari Plains. Lion expnsionism under Arasou has led to a lot of trouble but little gain. Restraining this aggression is therefore not only a major accomplishment but the correct course of action - for the time being.

I really enjoyed this story. While it lacked any action, it had several tense moments that showcased the precarious position Toturi currently occupies, both at home, in office, and abroad. Well written! I hope this leads to a more standard narrative release schedule. I've honestly fallen off the horse here because of the dry spell since that 6x6 rush... It will be nice to pull out some new stories, and I can meet up with friends to play the game and chat about fiction again ^_^

DAIDOJI UJI!!

8 hours ago, Manchu said:

"Bushido demands revenge"? Is revenge one of the seven virtues?

Arasou was not murdered. He died in battle - something all bushi face. Similalrly, the Crane seized Toshi Ranbo because Lion pressed Crane on the Osari Plains. Lion expnsionism under Arasou has led to a lot of trouble but little gain. Restraining this aggression is therefore not only a major accomplishment but the correct course of action - for the time being.

Revenge is a key part of Bushido. http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/adv/wol/dy/opinion/culture_100906.html

You make many good arguments..in favor of the Crane. I acknowledge your silvered tongue and respectfully submit that you might be more suited to the blue and silver of the Crane then the gold and brown of the Lion.

Thank you for the compliment but I can't pretend to the elegance of the Crane. In plain speech, therefore, let's stick to what Akodo no kami taught us: seven virtues of Bushido. Again, which one of these seven virtues requires revenge?

I think you are confusing revenge and justice . Crane seized Toshi Ranbo from Lion. Perhaps justice requires that Lion retake the city, that's a fine question. But that is not the only question. Was it just for Crane to seize the city? Was it just for Lion to put pressure on Crane about the Osari Plains in the wake of the crop-destroying tsunami? While also confronting Unicorn? The Empire is bigger than one question of justice, much less revenge, at a time.

Arasou knew how to catch a fish but Toturi knew that and more: how to put the fish where he wanted it to be, so even little Kaede could catch it. I would trust Matsu Tsuko to catch a fish or a hundred fish. But I would trust Akodo Toturi with the Empire.

Bushido isn't just the 7 tenets (which isn't the same as virtues) it's the whole cultural mindset that grew with it over centuries.

Revenge in Rokugan is a family duty and a cultural expectation. You don't owe revenge to yourself but to your ancestor.

Family Feuds are an important part of Rokugan's drama.

there was a comparison in an old book like if Romeo and Juliet happened in Rokugan, everyone involved would end up dead.

If the tenants are not the seven virtues then what are these "tenants"?

The problem with arguing that "Bushido is more than the seven virtues" is that then you are free to add whatever else you want to invent. For example, let's say a Scorpion wants to manipulate a Lion into dueling a Crane who insulted the Lion. The Scorpion will say that Bushido demands that the Lion's honor be upheld by avenging the insult. But if the Lion wants to avoid the Scorpion's manipulation, he should remember the words of Akodo no kami: a samurai is the judge of his own honor.

Doubtless, all kinds of customs have piled up masquerading as Bushido. This is because people are always trying to use Bushido as a justification for whatever they already want to do.

Edited by Manchu

Bushido (and samurai drama) isn't about seven separate tenets but about living by the seven tenets at the same time, constantly, with the 7 acting sometimes together or sometimes in opposition.

Someone slight your honor or your ancestor's or your family's, you have to get reparation, even if a courtier manipulated you. The deed is done.

it's about Meyo and Gi and even Chugo. And if you swore vengeance comes Makoto and even Yu if the odds are against you. And you will need to show yet Rei to your enemy, and even Jin if once your honor cleansed you spare the enemy and let him seppuku.

vengeance isn't indeed a tenet of Bushido in itself but it borders possibly on the seven. It is Bushido.

the Bushido is something greater than the sum of its parts.

9 hours ago, Nitenman said:

Bushido (and samurai drama) isn't about seven separate tenets but about living by the seven tenets at the same time, constantly, with the 7 acting sometimes together or sometimes in opposition.

Someone slight your honor or your ancestor's or your family's, you have to get reparation, even if a courtier manipulated you. The deed is done.

it's about Meyo and Gi and even Chugo. And if you swore vengeance comes Makoto and even Yu if the odds are against you. And you will need to show yet Rei to your enemy, and even Jin if once your honor cleansed you spare the enemy and let him seppuku.

vengeance isn't indeed a tenet of Bushido in itself but it borders possibly on the seven. It is Bushido.

the Bushido is something greater than the sum of its parts.

That is trying to use Bushido to justify revenge.

Toturi's problem is he can't see his brother's death as unjust and in need of being avenged. Those crying for vengeance are trying to justify it by saying the Clan's honor being slighted when others can not see such a slight.

The 47 Ronin's revenge is a different situation. They were loyal samurai who avenged their lord by killing the (possibly) corrupt official repeatedly insulted their lord and then forced their lord to commit seppuku.

21 hours ago, Manchu said:

Arasou knew how to catch a fish but Toturi knew that and more: how to put the fish where he wanted it to be, so even little Kaede could catch it. I would trust Matsu Tsuko to catch a fish or a hundred fish. But I would trust Akodo Toturi with the Empire.

I thought it was “give a man a fish and you feed him for a day, but, teach a man to fish and he’ll spend all day in a boat drinking sake.”