On 1/18/2018 at 10:02 AM, FireSpy said:

For comparison, the now outdated Epic Tournament Rules https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/d1/0a/d10a49e9-6a34-44f9-9881-a640a108d20b/epic_tournament_rules_v32.pdf

The Epic Play Card Restrictions (Biggs having no effect on Huge ships and Navigator being restricted from Huge ships) are curiously absent from the new tournament regulations. Whether this is an oversight, intentional change, or (hopefully) a sign that the Huge Ship Rules will be updated as well, remains to be seen.

Assuming that it's an intentional change, they may have felt that the Biggs' restriction was no longer necessary after his errata. As for Navigator, perhaps they felt that it was only too powerful in the past because not every faction had a Huge ship but now everyone can navigate their battering rams.

Well it wouldn't be the first time FFG omitted something when they rewritten the rules completely. For example placing your dials on your pilot card in the faction mirror to prevent players from accidentally picking up their opponents dial. That is not in the tournament rules now but was in a previous one.

22 hours ago, VanderLegion said:

Zuckuss really isn't an issue when he only works on 1 shot per round.

The problem is if you DON'T require huge ships, its pretty much always the better play to just not bring a huge ship and take a giant swarm of smaller ships. The huge ships are just too inefficient for their points. If EVERYONE has one, that balances it out a bit.

I see no problem with zuckuss/maul for scum right now since the croc only shoots once per round. Sure, it'll hit hart, but it's a 60-70+ point ship. It should hit hard. Maul for rebels could be a bit more of a problem, but havne't tried/seen him used to know for sure. But previously, while you might attack 4 or 5 times with your CR90, you only had mods for a couple of those shots. Now you basically have a free TL for every shot you take.

Well the solution would be to make huge ships better so that they don't just totally die to starfighter swarms. The difficulty is that Epic is not the priority of the development focus for X-wing. Only once in a while (usually around the announcement or release of a huge ship) does Epic get as much attention from FFG as it is right now. So standard meta gets more power creep to beat out the current boogy men of the top 8, and that tends to be more powerful then anything else when the huge ships were designed and play-tested against. It is like trying to balance Imperial Assault Skirmish, it is not the focus so it doesn't get much attention.

I saw one errata proposal that could have help out huge ships and that is to allow huge ships to hold unlimited number of blue target lock tokens. It can still only make one target lock per action (without weapons engineer) and only one red target lock per ship (so no redline effect). I think it would help out making huge ships more shooty as they should be.

3 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'm saying that the proportion of bad players that do not want to admit that they are bad is significantly higher on this sub-forum than on other communities. With a statistics degree, I should know that correlation is not causation.

With a statistics degree you also shouldn’t claim something is ”significantly higher” when all you are throwing around is knee jerk reactions with absolutely no data to back it up.

let's just stop quoting him stop replying and let it go because no discussion with him on this subject will go anywhere productive.

17 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

a lot of you people in this subforum seem to be here to isolate yourself to make the cognitive dissonance that you aren't good at the game

14 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'm saying that alternative play modes (especially those that have higher barriers to entry and less popularity) tend to attract players who are not good at the game,

11 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'm saying that the proportion of bad players that do not want to admit that they are bad is significantly higher on this sub-forum than on other communities.

So, why don't you do us all a favor and find a different subforum? Because I'm tired of hearing how the previously-neglected contingent of players who were very excited to get their own subforum are viewed by you as an insular subset of subpar x-wingers who can't hack it in The One True Game.

Because we are out here to have fun. Even if we get it wrong.

I would just like to say that from what I have seen in this subfourm thus far it has some of the most dedicated players that have passion for both epic and regular play. You all need to keep doing what your are doing and not let one nay sayer get in your way.

TL;DR the users in this subform are awesome!

13 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'm saying that the proportion of bad players that do not want to admit that they are bad is significantly higher on this sub-forum than on other communities.

...

In my experience I have found that a majority of bad players that do not want to admit that they are bad are the ones that continuously post "_______ needs a nerf" and "_____ ruined the game('s meta)" threads. AKA Nerf Herders.

Unfortunately FFG has shown a willingness to cave into those that scream the loudest.

3 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

In my experience I have found that a majority of bad players that do not want to admit that they are bad are the ones that continuously post "_______ needs a nerf" and "_____ ruined the game('s meta)" threads. AKA Nerf Herders.

*Scruffy Looking Nerf Herders

--

Back to the subject: I presume the updated Epic Rules Reference will use the standard Rules Reference for what constitutes a "secondary weapon," as in "Extra Munitions" doesn't count as a secondary weapon?

Quote

SECONDARY WEAPONS

Secondary weapons are upgrades that feature the “Attack:” header in their card text. They provide additional types of attack other than a ship’s primary weapon.

Star Wars: X-Wing Miniatures Rules Reference | Page 16

Personally not a fan of the EPT restriction, don't mind the secondary weapon restriction. But just want to make sure I'm reading this the same way everyone else is: Bombs and Extra Munitions don't have to follow the new restriction for "Secondary Weapons" as they, by the rules reference, do not fit the game definition of a secondary weapon.

Just now, ZealuxMyr said:

*Scruffy Looking Nerf Herders

--

Back to the subject: I presume the updated Epic Rules Reference will use the standard Rules Reference for what constitutes a "secondary weapon," as in "Extra Munitions" doesn't count as a secondary weapon?

Personally not a fan of the EPT restriction, don't mind the secondary weapon restriction. But just want to make sure I'm reading this the same way everyone else is: Bombs and Extra Munitions don't have to follow the new restriction for "Secondary Weapons" as they, by the rules reference, do not fit the game definition of a secondary weapon.

Well now the funny thing is Standard can have more Crack Shots than Epic?

I get the reasoning, Epic is more susceptible to spamgrades than standard because of the higher point limit. Last thing we need is an 8 TLT-wing swarm in epic.

Just now, Marinealver said:

Well now the funny thing is Standard can have more Crack Shots than Epic?

I get the reasoning, Epic is more susceptible to spamgrades than standard because of the higher point limit. Last thing we need is an 8 TLT-wing swarm in epic.

The day before this Rules Reference dropped I'd just built a janky alpha-strike list: 8 A-Wing Green Squadron Pilots (PTL, Swarm Tactics, Harpoons, Title, & Guidance Chips), Roark Garnet, and a GR-75 with Carlist Rieekan. This way I could activate and attack with 8 harpoon missiles at PS12... For that reason I understand restricting secondary weapons to 4 per squadron (who wants to have to face EIGHT harpoon missiles?) but with the same restriction on PTL I'm not likely to ever fly more than 4 A-Wings, they don't last long in Epic anyway...nevermind without PTL to focus & evade...

2 hours ago, ZealuxMyr said:

*Scruffy Looking Nerf Herders

--

Back to the subject: I presume the updated Epic Rules Reference will use the standard Rules Reference for what constitutes a "secondary weapon," as in "Extra Munitions" doesn't count as a secondary weapon?

Personally not a fan of the EPT restriction, don't mind the secondary weapon restriction. But just want to make sure I'm reading this the same way everyone else is: Bombs and Extra Munitions don't have to follow the new restriction for "Secondary Weapons" as they, by the rules reference, do not fit the game definition of a secondary weapon.

That's the way i read it. Secondary weapons are upgrade cards with attack: header. Em,seismic Toro, bombs wouldn't be restricted. The standard rules references name it that way and the epic reference didn't make any change so....

1 hour ago, Dabirdisdaword said:

That's the way i read it. Secondary weapons are upgrade cards with attack: header. Em,seismic Toro, bombs wouldn't be restricted. The standard rules references name it that way and the epic reference didn't make any change so....

I always forget Seismic Torpedoes exist...

12 minutes ago, ZealuxMyr said:

I always forget Seismic Torpedoes exist...

I keep trying to slide them into epic lists. Then pulling them for thug droids or a lwf

Woohoo! I went to build some Epic squads with the new rules, when I realized that my favorite squad already follows those squad building rules. Sweet!

12 hours ago, ZealuxMyr said:

The day before this Rules Reference dropped I'd just built a janky alpha-strike list: 8 A-Wing Green Squadron Pilots (PTL, Swarm Tactics, Harpoons, Title, & Guidance Chips), Roark Garnet, and a GR-75 with Carlist Rieekan. This way I could activate and attack with 8 harpoon missiles at PS12... For that reason I understand restricting secondary weapons to 4 per squadron (who wants to have to face EIGHT harpoon missiles?) but with the same restriction on PTL I'm not likely to ever fly more than 4 A-Wings, they don't last long in Epic anyway...nevermind without PTL to focus & evade...

So in a way I guess it raises the initial price of entry while keeping the price to compete lower. You don't need to buy 4 K-wings now to build your TLT-wing swarm. Also it keeps from having to spam more upgrades than what you would play in competitive standard.

But as it has been mentioned before this is for Epic Tournament formats. Casual Epic formats can have no restrictions and go up to 1,000 points (and can have a Scratch built Star Destroyer). So 12 TIE Interceptors is not a total waste.

I actually hope this does bring more Epic formats to OP. I heard there was an Epic Tournament at worlds but finding results is hard.

I really wish BS/F-17 and Upsilon shuttle were worth 1 Epic point so we could field legal sequel trilogy squads. Of course, then you couldn't run a Raider, Gozanti, and Upsilon together in an Epic squad, so there are drawbacks. Guess if I want to fly First Order I just need to accept that they might have used Gozantis to transport TIE/sf's.

12 hours ago, Parakitor said:

I really wish BS/F-17 and Upsilon shuttle were worth 1 Epic point so we could field legal sequel trilogy squads. Of course, then you couldn't run a Raider, Gozanti, and Upsilon together in an Epic squad, so there are drawbacks. Guess if I want to fly First Order I just need to accept that they might have used Gozantis to transport TIE/sf's.

Some 1 point Large Epics would be awesome. Now that they are mandatory, it would allow for some diversity. My first wave would be:

Resistance Shuttle

Krennic's Shuttle

Krom'rk Shuttle

I mean, who doesn't love a good shuttle??

Just now, Darth Meanie said:

Some 1 point Large Epics would be awesome. Now that they are mandatory, it would allow for some diversity. My first wave would be:

Resistance Shuttle

Krennic's Shuttle

Krom'rk Shuttle

I mean, who doesn't love a good shuttle??

For 1 point I would like a Formation type rules. Such formation is 4x IG-2000. There needs to be more mechanics that work like that where an epic formation works completely different than what a smaller 100 point version of the same ship.

3 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

For 1 point I would like a Formation type rules. Such formation is 4x IG-2000. There needs to be more mechanics that work like that where an epic formation works completely different than what a smaller 100 point version of the same ship.

My spin on this would be Squadron Rules, but yeah, you are right.

Maybe, just maybe, FFG can start designing for The Big Game as an actual thing, instead of Epic = [Huge + 100/6 + 100/6].

Wow, I love all of these changes. The limit of 4 on EPT/Weapon upgrades is really excellent. It neuters some of the most degenerative spam lists in Epic while also removing the "pay to win" vibe that someone might feel while trying to chase enough copies of some particular upgrade card for their Epic List.

It also helps indirectly stimulate or encourage load-out diversity. I like flying eight TIE Interceptors in Epic, for instance. Typically, it's been eight Royal Guard with PtL, though now I can actually explore some alternative loadouts on at least some of them (when in the past there'd be no sane reason to not glue PtL to all of them). Now maybe 4x PtL and 4x with Intensity, Outmaneuver, Adrenaline Rush... or even just 4x Alpha Squadron PS1 Blockers to serve as "pathfinder" blockers with their PS1, fast dial, and Boost/BR for ultimate blocking.

Fun!

19 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

Wow, I love all of these changes. The limit of 4 on EPT/Weapon upgrades is really excellent. It neuters some of the most degenerative spam lists in Epic while also removing the "pay to win" vibe that someone might feel while trying to chase enough copies of some particular upgrade card for their Epic List.

It also helps indirectly stimulate or encourage load-out diversity. I like flying eight TIE Interceptors in Epic, for instance. Typically, it's been eight Royal Guard with PtL, though now I can actually explore some alternative loadouts on at least some of them (when in the past there'd be no sane reason to not glue PtL to all of them). Now maybe 4x PtL and 4x with Intensity, Outmaneuver, Adrenaline Rush... or even just 4x Alpha Squadron PS1 Blockers to serve as "pathfinder" blockers with their PS1, fast dial, and Boost/BR for ultimate blocking.

Fun!

For me, the Four And No More rule will get me to just stop slapping VI on everything

On 1/18/2018 at 6:04 PM, Kaptin Krunch said:

This is similar, but a lot of you people in this subforum seem to be here to isolate yourself to make the cognitive dissonance that you aren't good at the game less severe- the amount of bad decisions/advice/list content I've seen in the thread that spawned this subforum and the subforum is staggering.

I won't speak to the general point here, per se, but I'll just say that I am a huge Epic Enthusiast and I've played in over a half dozen Team Epic tournaments and two (solo) Epic tournaments over the years. I also happen to be somewhat decent at the "Standard" game of X-Wing, with a Regional Championship, three Regional Finalists, and four Store Championships notched on the bed post. So, it's probably not safe to assume that everyone who loves Epic is on the clueless side of casual when it comes to X-Wing.



PS : I agree that Maul should not work on Huge ships. I suppose there's a bit of an open question as to whether or not Maul does work on one, though, as it looks like receiving the stress token is a requirement for Maul's ability. It depends on whether we think a huge ship "receives" a particular number of stress tokens. This is relevant, because receiving the stress tokens is a requirement to triggering the rest of the ability. As precedence, consider Soontir Fel... even if he 'receives a stress token' via using Push the Limit but then Lt. Yorr ultimately ends up receiving it instead of Fel, Fel does not get to receive his Focus token because he never actually received a stress token.

So it depends on what "does not affect huge ships" means in the entry for Stress (and other) tokens. "When a huge ship receives any of these tokens, immediately remove them and return them to the token supply" following "[these tokens] do not affect huge ships." This is a bit cryptic.

On the one hand, one could claim that the huge ship "received two stress tokens and then immediately discard them," therefore Maul can reroll 2 Dice on this attack. On the other hand, one could reasonably argue that the huge ship never actually received any stress tokens, so the number of dice Maul can reroll is zero.

I think there are reasonable arguments to made for each interpretation, though I suspect the latter would be FFG's stance regarding Maul on Huge ships, though the former is probably better justified under the current RAW. Hopefully we will be getting a Huge Ship rules update soon that clarifies a bit of this cryptic section or flat-out bans Maul (and similar self-stress crew) from Huge ships.

12 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

For me, the Four And No More rule will get me to just stop slapping VI on everything

Yea, one of my Epic Squads exploited Roarke and about a dozen copies of Swarm Tactics... it's amazing what you can completely vaporize with 400pts shooting at PS12 ... it rarely afforded the opposing squad much in the way of return fire. It was fun and cheesy, but glad to see it go, as it only makes Epic healthier.

55 minutes ago, AllWingsStandyingBy said:

So it depends on what "does not affect huge ships" means in the entry for Stress (and other) tokens. " When a huge ship receives any of these tokens, immediately remove them and return them to the token supply" following "[these tokens] do not affect huge ships." This is a bit cryptic.

On the one hand, one could claim that the huge ship "received two stress tokens and then immediately discard them," therefore Maul can reroll 2 Dice on this attack. On the other hand, one could reasonably argue that the huge ship never actually received any stress tokens, so the number of dice Maul can reroll is zero.

I think there are reasonable arguments to made for each interpretation, though I suspect the latter would be FFG's stance regarding Maul on Huge ships, though the former is probably better justified under the current RAW. Hopefully we will be getting a Huge Ship rules update soon that clarifies a bit of this cryptic section or flat-out bans Maul (and similar self-stress crew) from Huge ships.

Strictly by RAW, I had to touch those tokens. I put them on the Huge, then I returned them to my token supply. So Maul should work.

Ne'ertheless, I don't think he should work. FFG needs to tighten up the language to say that Stress, Focus, etc. do not affect Huge ships, and any mechanics that rely those tokens do not apply to Huge ships.

Personally, I would like to see Huge ships get more of a command role, meaning that things like Jonus, Esege, etc. don't go "up" the chain of command. Those mechanisms can be replaced by crew that are functionally the same (or better). To take it further the other direction, I would like to see more Coordinate-style actions that let capital ships act as command centers for the Starfighters.