I was thinking here today, do you guys think that the talents should have another kind of separation despite the tier?

I believe that the talents could be organized, inside the tiers, in three different groups: combat, social and technical.

This could help us to find faster what we want among all the talents, considering that the talent list is becoming greater day after day

48 minutes ago, Bellyon said:

I was thinking here today, do you guys think that the talents should have another kind of separation despite the tier?

I believe that the talents could be organized, inside the tiers, in three different groups: combat, social and technical.

This could help us to find faster what we want among all the talents, considering that the talent list is becoming greater day after day

We have gone around and around on that idea, and what categories we would actually use. There are talents, of course, that don't fit neatly into one category. There are players and GM's who would want different categories. It could be a future project, but I don't think it will happen soon. Unless someone gets motivated, of course.

10 hours ago, Bellyon said:

I was thinking here today, do you guys think that the talents should have another kind of separation despite the tier?

I believe that the talents could be organized, inside the tiers, in three different groups: combat, social and technical.

This could help us to find faster what we want among all the talents, considering that the talent list is becoming greater day after day

9 hours ago, TheSapient said:

We have gone around and around on that idea, and what categories we would actually use. There are talents, of course, that don't fit neatly into one category. There are players and GM's who would want different categories. It could be a future project, but I don't think it will happen soon. Unless someone gets motivated, of course.

What about just adding categories as Tags to each entry? That would allow us to search the pdf for a Tag/Category. Also, this way each Talent could have multiple Tags if it could fall under multiple Categories.

I don't know what software you're using to compile the pdf, but would there then also be a way to automatically add an Index by Tag?

I had been thinking to just have tables at the end that compile the list into groups, with links to the actual entry, but defining those groups is a challenge since as TheSapiant said there’s talents that bridge multiple categories.

One potential decision method is:

General Skill focus: anything that’s influencing a general skill

Combat check focus: any talents keyed off or connected to combat skills and

Magic and Knowledge check focus: talents influencing those magic and knowledge skills

Social check focus: social talents

Utility talents: Grit, Toughened etc

But some magic skill checks are combat checks. Some talents are situational, for example they occur when you navigate but there’s potentially ways to navigate with General, Magic, Knowledge and Social skills.

Here’s an example list of all the T1 talents split into groups

GTE categories

General

All-Terrain Driver

Apothecary

Brace

Construction Specialist

Creative Design

Defensive Sysops

Dungeoneer

Forager

Knack For It

Medical Specialist

One With Nature

Physician

Rapid Reaction

Redundant Systems

Signature Vehicle

Solid Repairs

Soothing Tone

Surgeon

Combat

Brace

Bullrush

Call 'Em

Duelist

Finesse

Hamstring Shot

Parry

Painful Blow

Precision

Shield Slam

Quick Strike

Reflect

Tavern Brawler

Social

Bad Cop

Clever Retort

Good Cop

Knack For It

Proper Upbringing

Smooth Talker

Magic

Dark Insight

Templar

Knowledge

Bought Info

Dungeoneer

Familiar Sky

Knack For It

Knowledge Specialization

Museum Worthy

Utility

Black Market Contacts

Desperate Recovery

Durable

Extra Ammo

Grit

Hidden Storage

Jump Up

Know Somebody

Let’s Ride

Quick Draw

Rapid Recovery

Second Wind

Shapeshifter

Swift

Toughened

Tumble

Unremarkable

Wheel and Deal

2 hours ago, admutt said:

What about just adding categories as Tags to each entry? That would allow us to search the pdf for a Tag/Category. Also, this way each Talent could have multiple Tags if it could fall under multiple Categories.

I don't know what software you're using to compile the pdf, but would there then also be a way to automatically add an Index by Tag?

We've talked about that too.

I think that using keywords would be most useful for an dynamic software interface. Right now, I'm using the Excel and Word files available for download to generate this document. Because we want it to be easy for people to modify the talent list for their own needs, I tried to limit the process to these easily accessible formats.

If there is a way to automate tagging key words and relating them to talent names, I'm willing to consider this.

2 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I had been thinking to just have tables at the end that compile the list into groups, with links to the actual entry, but defining those groups is a challenge since as TheSapiant said there’s talents that bridge multiple categories.

One potential decision method is:

General Skill focus: anything that’s influencing a general skill

Combat check focus: any talents keyed off or connected to combat skills and

Magic and Knowledge check focus: talents influencing those magic and knowledge skills

Social check focus: social talents

Utility talents: Grit, Toughened etc

But some magic skill checks are combat checks. Some talents are situational, for example they occur when you navigate but there’s potentially ways to navigate with General, Magic, Knowledge and Social skills.

I suppose for talents that fit into more than one category, we could have a hierarchy of precedence. For example, Magic could trump all other categories, such that combat and social magic still get listed as "Magic". Magic>Combat>Social>Utility>General. Something like that.

On the other hand, I don't personally feel like there are so many talents that it is really that difficult to find what you want. There is also the search engine in PDF readers, etc. If you want something that keys off of willpower, search for "willpower". If you want something that helps with or uses stealth, search for "stealth". I'm not certain the cost/benefit is there for using categories or keywords.

In that example list I put brace in multiple places, that’s the third solution.

If it was an “Index by type” at the end then it would be useful, otherwise I think what people may be looking for is all the t1 to t5 Combat Talents in the same place to make planning progression easier

In needing to adapt Finesse to a setting with no differentiation between Light/Heavy Melee, I made this variant for our game.

Finesse
Activation : Active (Incidental)
Ranked : No
Your character may use Agility instead of Brawn when making a Brawl or Melee check using a weapon with an encumbrance value less than or equal to their Brawn.

I figure encumbrance makes a good tipping point for answering the question "is it light". It also helps keep Brawn around as a tertiary component of melee. Melee (Light) weapon encumbrances tend to be 1 or 2 (very rarely 3), while Melee (Heavy) typically range from 3 to 5. It lines up pretty cleanly. I know there are ways to lower encumbrance, though I don't see it as a drastic issue. Cumbersome exists on most really bulky weapons and acts as a sort of sanity checker, should someone think they can gracefully fence with a sledgehammer.

1 hour ago, ClockworkBard said:

In needing to adapt Finesse to a setting with no differentiation between Light/Heavy Melee, I made this variant for our game.

Finesse
Activation : Active (Incidental)
Ranked : No
Your character may use Agility instead of Brawn when making a Brawl or Melee check using a weapon with an encumbrance value less than or equal to their Brawn.

I figure encumbrance makes a good tipping point for answering the question "is it light". It also helps keep Brawn around as a tertiary component of melee. Melee (Light) weapon encumbrances tend to be 1 or 2 (very rarely 3), while Melee (Heavy) typically range from 3 to 5. It lines up pretty cleanly. I know there are ways to lower encumbrance, though I don't see it as a drastic issue. Cumbersome exists on most really bulky weapons and acts as a sort of sanity checker, should someone think they can gracefully fence with a sledgehammer.

Why not just leave it at melee weapons with an encumbrance no greater than 2? That keeps someone from gaming the system to dual-wield greatswords with a judicious investment of 30XP at character creation.

Here's what I'm seeing in the back of my brain (which, admittedly, is blackened by decades of GMing):

Theev McRoguerson , Human Roguish Dude

Brawn: 3 Agility: 4 Intellect: 2 Cunning: 2 Willpower: 2 Presence: 2

Wound Threshold: 13

Strain Threshold: 12

Total XP: 210 (Character creation plus 100 XP from a few sessions of playing.)

Skills: Coordination 2, Melee 3, Ranged (Light), Skulduggery 2, Stealth 2, and three other appropriate career skills, one of which has one rank. Probably Deception.

Talents: Finesse (for the aforementioned wielding of a greatsword, a +4 weapon with 2 Crit) and two other Tier 1 talents, Dual Wielder (so he can wield two greatswords and attack with both without increased difficulty) and one other Tier 2 talent (I'd recommend Lucky Strike with Agility as the chosen characteristic, for +4 to damage on one hit each time you spend a story point), and then Dual Strike (a Tier 3 talent that allows the character to hit with their second weapon by suffering 2 Strain rather than .)

Mr. McRoguerson here probably won't start with two greatswords, but they certainly won't be too difficult for him to acquire before he's earned 100XP, what with a rarity of only 4. Once he has them, he attacks, rolling vs. . This attack will succeed about 83% of the time and produce enough to crit around 40% of the time. (And that's not counting the 23% chance of at least if not .) Even if he doesn't crit, he can suffer two strain to attack hit with the second weapon, as well. Assuming he rolls at least uncancelled (which he will 65% of the time), he'll do Brawn + 4 + for a total of nine points of damage with each strike. If he has a Story Point in the player pool, he can make that 13 points with one strike and 9 with the other. And this is fairly young character.

The downside, of course, is that he's a bit of a one-trick pony.

The original just needs “this can only be used with weapons that are usually held in one hand”

6 hours ago, Simon Retold said:

Why not just leave it at melee weapons with an encumbrance no greater than 2? That keeps someone from gaming the system to dual-wield greatswords with a judicious investment of 30XP at character creation.

Here's what I'm seeing in the back of my brain (which, admittedly, is blackened by decades of GMing):

Theev McRoguerson , Human Roguish Dude

Brawn: 3 Agility: 4 Intellect: 2 Cunning: 2 Willpower: 2 Presence: 2

Wound Threshold: 13

Strain Threshold: 12

Total XP: 210 (Character creation plus 100 XP from a few sessions of playing.)

Skills: Coordination 2, Melee 3, Ranged (Light), Skulduggery 2, Stealth 2, and three other appropriate career skills, one of which has one rank. Probably Deception.

Talents: Finesse (for the aforementioned wielding of a greatsword, a +4 weapon with 2 Crit) and two other Tier 1 talents, Dual Wielder (so he can wield two greatswords and attack with both without increased difficulty) and one other Tier 2 talent (I'd recommend Lucky Strike with Agility as the chosen characteristic, for +4 to damage on one hit each time you spend a story point), and then Dual Strike (a Tier 3 talent that allows the character to hit with their second weapon by suffering 2 Strain rather than .)

Mr. McRoguerson here probably won't start with two greatswords, but they certainly won't be too difficult for him to acquire before he's earned 100XP, what with a rarity of only 4. Once he has them, he attacks, rolling vs. . This attack will succeed about 83% of the time and produce enough to crit around 40% of the time. (And that's not counting the 23% chance of at least if not .) Even if he doesn't crit, he can suffer two strain to attack hit with the second weapon, as well. Assuming he rolls at least uncancelled (which he will 65% of the time), he'll do Brawn + 4 + for a total of nine points of damage with each strike. If he has a Story Point in the player pool, he can make that 13 points with one strike and 9 with the other. And this is fairly young character.

The downside, of course, is that he's a bit of a one-trick pony.

Thank you very much for the thought out feedback. It hadn't been my intention to use the same delimiter of encumbrance value to determine "handedness". The edge case of someone with a greatsword and Brawn 3/Agility 4 was actually one of the metrics I was using while writing it, since the greatsword's strong bonuses balanced by Unwieldy 3 make it a clear optimization choice for such a talent were they to share a setting. However, I approached it from the point of view that it would remain a two-handed weapon that is simply allowed to use the Agility characteristic with this talent.

However, a hard encumbrance limit of 2 would likely produce similar results 90% of the time, since most people looking for a Finesse-like talent will also be Brawn 2. I like the idea of limiting Brawn 1 characters to very light weapons, but purely for fluff reasons. Every modern/future melee weapon in the Genesys core book is Encumbrance 1, so the difference won't really matter that much in such a setting, I suppose.

6 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

The original just needs “this can only be used with weapons that are usually held in one hand”

That's what I was going with at first and had it written in my notes as such for a good while. The staff -- an Encumbrance 2 Melee (Heavy) weapon that's fairly definitively a two-handed weapon -- is what made me second guess that convention. I really liked the idea a staff-twirling acrobat archetype and went looking for vectors that could facilitate that without specifically calling it out as a special case.

4 hours ago, ClockworkBard said:

That's  what I was going with at first and had it written in my notes as such for a good while. The staff -- an Encumbra  nce 2 Melee (Heavy) weapon that's fairly definitively a two-handed weapon -- is what made me second guess that convention. I really liked the idea a staff-twirling acrobat archetype and went looking for vectors that could facilitate th  at without specifically calling it out as a special case. 

Fair enough

On tagging Talents by type. I'd almost be against it because that puts up a great big "pick this for this archetype" flag. One thing I really like about Genesys talents is they have a wide spread and aren't purely focused on combat. You start labeling stuff and you'll have players hone in on them, leading to the good old "When all you have is a hammer" problem most RPGs fall into.

Of course for general search functionality it's fine.

since someone posted about "Stealing mechanics from L5R"

has anyone looked into the L5R beta (eg Techniques) for more Talents to port ?

9 hours ago, Terefang said:

since someone posted about "Stealing mechanics from L5R"

has anyone looked into the L5R beta (eg Techniques) for more Talents to port ?

Interesting thought.

I know someone was working on an L5R setting, not sure if they have posted an update recently

4 hours ago, Richardbuxton said:

I know someone was working on an L5R setting, not sure if they have posted an update recently

*cough*

VERSION 4.1 is available.

This is mostly formatting fixes, and the removal of some duplicated talents.

Thank you to everyone who helped find these errors.

Just noticed something: we need to remove Spin Attack.

1 hour ago, Swordbreaker said:

Just noticed something: we need to remove Spin Attack.

because ?

4 minutes ago, Terefang said:

because ?

Because Whirlwind.

i dont think so, but there is a point that "Spin Attack" and "Whirlwind" are somewhat similar.

Whirlwind (T5) relies on 4 strain and the hardest difficulty +1 to automatically hit all engaged

whereas

Spin Attack (T4) needs you to spend no strain and roll against engaged difficulty +1 and then to spend AA for each additional target hit

compare that to a non-combat magic action effect:

Additional Target (+2d): the spell affects one additional target within range of the spell. In addition, after casting the spell,
you may spend A to affect one additional target within range of the spell (and may trigger this multiple times, spending A each time).

hmm ... since there are no similar Talents with additional Target Effects ... and doing with magic costs 2 strain ...

options are

• downgrade "Spin Attack" to T3
• require "Spin Attack" to spend 2 strain
• require "Spin Attack" to have a specific Talent bought before
• require "Spin Attack" to have Agility (3 or 4)
• require "Whirlwind" to have "Spin Attack" bought before
• some of the above
• all of the above

Spin Attack is an unofficial adaption of Sarlacc Sweep for Genesys. Whirlwind is obviously the Genesys reimagining of the the talent. Official > unofficial.

i still not see the point why they should not be able to coexist as a lesser and greater version of each other