I agree, the thread title and to a lesser extent the first post were a little over the top (and the threat title would seem to suggest the original poster does actually know the lore reasonably well), but the conversation has moved on since then. It's not the original poster being told to stop whining, he hasn't been involved since the first post; it's other people making a perfectly measured point about how addressing the OPs concerns, however minor you may think they are, would be a) nice and b) harmless, who are somehow being accused of whining, soapboxing, trying to change the lore, hypocrisy because they're not complaining about other games, and other such nonsense that makes so little sense it's not worth individually responding to.

On a side note - I only just realised the like button could be clicked directly rather than waiting for the pop-up menu and then selecting something from it! I'd been doing trophies until now as I didn't realise there was a simple like option - doh!

37 minutes ago, mazz0 said:

On a side note - I only just realised the like button could be clicked directlyrather than waiting for the pop-up menu and then selecting something from it! I'd been doing trophies until now as I didn't realise there was a simple like option - doh!

lol! You aren't the only one. Took me a bit to realise that as well

From what I can tell, everyone at least agrees that we need to have more female representation in games in general (which is awesome, I was worried for a bit there)... but just not in this particular game because it would somehow mess with peoples intricate understanding of the lore and offend their sensibilities...

So does that mean that you're all basically saying that it's your own fault if you find it frustrating that there is only one female character, because you should know the Fallout lore when you play this game, because the only people it's designed for are super Fallout nerds and all other perspectives are irrelevant?

...Ooo... K...... ....?!?

I don't think you have ever played fallout games. player2017979, base on your last post.

Haha... Whilst that's hilariously off topic and pretty nonsensical.. . I have played a fair few hours of Fallout in my time, 3 and 4 to be exact (still haven't made it to Vegas ). So even from an experienced Fallout players perspective it seems like a bit of poor form.

And I guess if you were to look at it from someone else's perspective that hadn't played then they must be completely baffled at why there is just one girl...

So at work today I asked 13 people if this

13 hours ago, player2017979 said:

completely baffled at why there is just one girl...

11 of them women, not one of them cared or thought this was sexist. Same with others.

At this point someone else's perspective seems just to be really yours. as I'm going to call you out for just trolling.

By this messed up logic if I buy my daughter a my little pony set and it comes with 3 girl and one boy it's sexist. ..... Done feeding the troll in thread.

Have a good day

52 minutes ago, crow-flash said:

By this messed up logic if I buy my daughter a my little pony set and itcomes with 3 girl and one boy it's sexist. .....

That's some pretty strange logic you've got going there... Sexism (like racism etc) is about power inequity... but anyway...

Your survey's interesting but I guess just as biased as mine. Personally my gaming group consists of mostly couples (plus a few single males here and there). We're a pretty "lefty" crew so I guess that messes with the data even further, and we unanimously agree that it has sexist overtones but most of us think it constitutes more of an unconscious sexism (so that's around 10 gamers in the other direction, but again it's biased data).

Sorry if I offended you, I was just trying to have a discussion on the topic to help people understand that it's perfectly reasonable for someone to see this as sexist, but also I guess to highlight one of the hurdles women have to getting into this hobby.

I'm not trolling, I guess I'm just a bit sick of letting people get away with thinking its fine to discount it when someone says something might be sexist...

But things are changing, so maybe we should move on in a more positive direction...

11 hours ago, crow-flash said:

So at work today I asked 13 people if this

11 of them women, not one of them cared or thought this was sexist. Same with others.

At this point someone else's perspective seems just to be really yours. as I'm going to call you out for just trolling.

By this messed up logic if I buy my daughter a my little pony set and it comes with 3 girl and one boy it's sexist. ..... Done feeding the troll in thread.

Have a good day

player2017979, and presumably myself, are trolling because people you know disagree with us? That's not what trolling means.

I'm not sure if this is serious or not. I've never met a gamer who refused to play a game because they couldn't play a character with the same gender as them. I mean the token has a gender I guess but it's just a token. If this bothers you so much why not just use some coins? Or minis from another game? Seriously: is this for real?

6 minutes ago, Jeff Kaos said:

I'm not sure if this is serious or not. I've never met a gamer who refused to play a game because they couldn't play a character with the same gender as them. I mean the token has a gender I guess but it's just a token. If this bothers you so much why not just use some coins? Or minis from another game? Seriously: is this for real?

Let's not forget that the minis show all sorts of gear that your characters don't start with. They're definitely not designed to be highly-accurate representations of the actual character you are in the moment - just a ballpark idea

I'm completely baffled. I can only assume this is a joke because I've been playing P&P RPGs and board games since the mid-80s and even as a 12 year old playing Talisman with my friends none of us wouldn't play as say the Prophetess because she's a female and we were boys. And if a boy in 1984 can play as a female character in a game without it being an issue I have to assume a full grown adult would be able to at least *pretend* to do the same in 2018.

1 minute ago, Jeff Kaos said:

I'm completely baffled. I can only assume this is a joke because I've been playing P&P RPGs and board games since the mid-80s and even as a 12 year old playing Talisman with my friends none of us wouldn't play as say the Prophetess because she's a female and we were boys. And if a boy in 1984 can play as a female character in a game without it being an issue I have to assume a full grown adult would be able to at least *pretend* to do the same in 2018.

I'm completely baffled. I can only assume this is a joke because I've been playing P&P RPGs and board games since the mid-80s and even as a 12 year old playing Talisman with my friends none of us wouldn't play as say the Prophetess because she's a female and we were boys. And if a boy in 1984 can play as a female character in a game without it being an issue I have to assume a full grown adult would be able to at least *pretend* to do the same in 2018.

Sorry for the double post.

On 2/17/2018 at 9:35 AM, Jeff Kaos said:

I'm completely baffled. I can only assume this is a joke because I've been playing P&P RPGs and board games since the mid-80s and even as a 12 year old playing Talisman with my friends none of us wouldn't play as say the Prophetess because she's a female and we were boys. And if a boy in 1984 can play as a female character in a game without it being an issue I have to assume a full grown adult would be able to at least *pretend* to do the same in 2018.

Might be a good idea to read back through some of the posts to understand what was actually being said... The discussion wasn't really about men playing RPG's and struggling because they had no choice but to be a girl (that's not really something that happens that often)...

It twisted a turned a lot, but I think the idea was more about thinking that it was about time that female characters, and by extension female players, were equally represented at the table.

Most people in the thread didn't really seem to like the idea of having more female representation but a small few of us agreed that it would be better.

10 hours ago, player2017979 said:

Might be a good idea to read back through some of the posts to understand what was actually being said... The discussion wasn't really about men playing RPG's and struggling because they had no choice but to be a girl (that's not really something that happens that often)...

It twisted a turned a lot, but I think the idea was more about thinking that it was about time that female characters, and by extension female players, were equally represented at the table.

Most people in the thread didn't really seem to like the idea of having more female representation but a small few of us agreed that it would be better.

Still no Actual Female Gamers bothered yet?? guess not

just 1 girlfriend trying to find a polite way to tell her boyfriend she doesn't like a particular board game, or maybe board games in general?? idk?

3rd try though ... Gamer Girls!! .. bothered or not?

23 minutes ago, Slash Macbain said:

Still no Actual Female Gamers bothered yet?? guess not

just 1 girlfriend trying to find a polite way to tell her boyfriend she doesn't like a particular board game, or maybe board games in general?? idk?

3rd try though ... Gamer Girls!! .. bothered or not?

What exactly is your point? That a lack of women present who are “bothered” invalidates the opinion of people who think more women in the game would be nice? Don’t you see how that’s flawed logic?

It is QUITE flawed logic to ask for oppinions from female gamers who are bothered by it because said females would most likely not go into the forum for the game they are bothered by.

16 hours ago, player2017979 said:

Might be a good idea to read back through some of the posts to understand what was actually being said... The discussion wasn't really about men playing RPG's and struggling because they had no choice but to be a girl (that's not really something that happens that often)...

Great to see you assume he never did.

16 hours ago, player2017979 said:

Most people in the thread didn't really seem to like the idea of having more female representation but a small few of us agreed that it would be better.

Way to twist this thread into something no one ever said. No one said dam I don't want girls playing or girl minis. People said it was not sexist.

Ahhh here..... since you seem to have turned sexism into something in this game it's not.

On 2/16/2018 at 12:55 AM, player2017979 said:

I'm not trolling, I guess I'm just a bit sick of letting people get away with thinking its fine to discount it when someone says something might be sexist...

Good to see your sick of it. Better get used to people not see things your way. On that's right your group is left thinkers. Bet you guys must get triggered over everything.

On 1/9/2018 at 5:45 PM, player2017979 said:

What I think is weird, and even more sexist than the lack of distinctly female characters, is the language used in almost all of the rule books from Fantasy Flight Games. Every FFG rule book I can think of refers to players as males. Whilst my girlfriend mostly finds that amusing (saying things like "oh I guess that rule doesn't apply to me, ha ha ha..."), I think it's a bit outdated and kind of annoying.

This is a lie as fantasy flight games books says players. Not males...... do I need to post screen shots. Only thing annoying is you.

1 hour ago, crow-flash said:

Good to see your sick of it. Better get used to people not see things your way. On that's right your group is left thinkers. Bet you guys must get triggered over everything.

Haha... yeah, we're poor precious little SJW snowflake unicorn flowers, ready to get angry and have tantrums n leave when people don't see things our way!

As a group we actually laugh at the hilarious stupidity of most things really, but it doesn't stop me from occasionally attempting to help others see when something doesn't seem right and could be changed…

1 hour ago, crow-flash said:

This is a lie as fantasy flight games books says players. Not males...... do I need to post screen shots. Only thing annoying is you.

It's totally true that the rules say "players"!... I guess I didn't look closely enough when first reading them and got mixed up with pretty much every other FFG game who's rules talk as though males are the only people in the board game world... my bad...

It's great to see that some things are changing for the better...

On a side note, I have to say I do find it strange that you are so aggressively anti social about this discussion though. Surely you can see the world from other peoples perspectives without it making you angry and abusive...

1 hour ago, crow-flash said:

Way to twist this thread into something no one ever said. No one said dam I don't want girls playing or girl minis. People said it was not sexist.

Ahhh here..... since you seem to have turned sexism into something in this game it's not.

prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

As for the definition of sexism, yeah that is what was being discussed and most people did talk about not thinking this game needed to do more about it by changing the game to have more female characters, and some of us did say that it would be better if it did...???

Sexism, again like racism, isn't just about direct abusive discrimination, it can also be about indirect prejudice through lack of representation.

But anyway obviously no-one is going to change your mind, you made it quite aggressively clear that you have an intolerant stance on the idea that this game could be seen as a bit sexist.

I was just hoping that people could understand why someone might think it is a bit sexist to include just one female and that things aren't always just about maintaining the status quo. Sometimes it's fine to acknowledge when something could've been done differently to be more inclusive.

Maybe if you tried a little more empathy these sorts of ideas wouldn't be so aggravating...

18 hours ago, mazz0 said:

What exactly is your point? That a lack of women present who are “bothered” invalidates the opinion of people who think more women in the game would be nice? Don’t you see how that’s flawed logic?

No My Point is the Vast majority of female gamers and Women Do Not Care What Gender A Bit Of Plastic Is !!!! .. they are not that shallow, vain and petty ... that just like Male Gamers who play female characters, they are there for the game not the politics

If you really want to see sexism in our hobby, read the Moral Conflict 1940 rulebook. The bit where it states women might like to play as the USA because they will like the support role. Just, wow. It actually went there.

On 2/15/2018 at 6:15 PM, player2017979 said:

From what I can tell, everyone at least agrees that we need to have more female representation in games in general (which is awesome, I was worried for a bit there)... but just not in this particular game because it would somehow mess with peoples intricate understanding of the lore and offend their sensibilities...

I have three daughters and the games they choose to play have nothing to do with the gender representation of the game's characters but everything to do with the gameplay and theme. For example, they love the Thunderbirds Co-op game despite only having one "token" female character yet I couldn't ever get them to play Star Wars Armada even if every in-game character was female. So I've never seen any real evidence that more female characters automatically equals more female gamers.

Yet I constantly see, even in this thread, the claim that if anyone is against adding female character to any game they must also be against female gamers.

Maybe these people don't really want more women in the hobby? Seriously, that is the only reason I can see that anyone would argue against the idea... that and trolls?

This is a dishonest tactic.

10 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:

No My Point is the Vast majority of female gamers and Women Do Not Care What Gender A Bit Of Plastic Is !!!! .. they are not that shallow, vain and petty ... that just like Male Gamers who play female characters, they are there for the game not the politics

Well, setting aside the anecdotal nature of the evidence you use to support your claim that the “vast majority of female gamers and women do not care”, as well as the question of whether caring about is the same as agreeing with a point, so what? An argument isn’t diminished by being unpopular.

More importantly, the point is bigger than the one specific issue of ‘number of clearly female minis in a game’. It’s about what that number may be symptomatic and self-reinforcing of: the impression that gaming is designed for males. It creates stereotypes, makes boys and girls grow up thinking some sorts of hobbies/toys/aesthetics/tastes are for boys and some are for girls, just as happens with professions.

10 hours ago, Hedgehobbit said:

I have three daughters and the games they choose to play have nothing to do with the gender representation of the game's characters but everything to do with the gameplay and theme

As I said earlier in my own "survey", anecdotes unfortunately don't really constitute informative data Hedgehobbit (it's great your kids play games though! Parenting win )...

10 hours ago, Hedgehobbit said:

Yet I constantly see, even in this thread, the claim that if anyone is against adding female character to any game they must also be against female gamers.

...This is a dishonest tactic.

There's nothing dishonest about questioning the motives of why someone would argue against something... No-one has actually said what their motivations are for being so opposed to the idea, everyone has just said that "it's all about the game or theme and that it shouldn't matter if there aren't any women to choose from, because it doesn't matter to them". So I just made the only logical conclusion I could for it, hoping that people would see that there really isn't a good reason for being so against the idea, other than to simply wanting to argue about it. I've seen plenty of explanations for how they don't agree but none indicating why they think it is so necessary to make sure people don't say it's sexist.

I guess I would've expected more people to be able to see the point that was being made and go "oh yeah, I guess I can understand why someone would think that" and discuss it from there... but instead it became a vigorously contested issue with people seemingly being offended by the idea that some of us thought it was a bit sexist and that it would've been better with more female characters.

12 hours ago, Slash Macbain said:

the Vast majority of female gamers and Women Do Not Care What Gender A Bit Of Plastic Is !!!! .. they are not that shallow, vain and petty ... that just like Male Gamers who play female characters, they are there for the game not the politics

In addition to what Mazz0 has already said, whilst your experience of the world might lead you to think this is true for you, this statement in itself really doesn't do anything but reaffirm that point of view.

It's fine if you have fun and don't talk about the depth of the politics reflected in a game, it doesn't mean that the politics aren't there. Personally, we have fun and talk about the hilarity of what we do see in our games and often it's satire based in the inherent politics, so we have fun differently.

I'm not saying the game in itself isn't fun or that I won't play if the plastic doesn't reflect my rights... I simply agreed with the idea that there is a power inequity shown in this game's design (if you're not shallow and you do stop and think about it ).

It's an observation of the game and one of the ways I see that it could be improved.

3 hours ago, player2017979 said:

if you're not shallow and you do stop and think about it

I See you have your copy and paste reply post for the day. Only thing shallow here your post.