4 hours ago, Vetnor said:

Yes I’d say you’ve totally missed the point.

Hahaha, I guess the fact that the majority of posts in this thread suggest there is nothing wrong here, kinda makes my point for me... Pity really...

Trolls keep on troll'n.

http://fortune.com/2015/10/13/kathleen-kennedy-star-wars/

The kicker? Two-thirds of the executive story team on the upcoming Star Wars movie is female. “I’m confident we will eventually hire a woman who directs a Stars Wars movie,” Kennedy added.

Not .. We will hire the Best Director, Not we will hire the Most knowledgeable director .... We will hire a woman director, Just Coz!! .. oddly all the female directors she has tried to get have turned her down.

So she got Rian Johnson ... Why? ..Not coz he knew the franchise or was an amazing director, he has actually done very little of any note ... but because he wrote it Her way .... her comment was something like "he writes strong, independent Female characters"

Social Pandering! .. And look how badly the films are doing now, especially TLJ

in the same way you shouldn't just change games, board or computer, to try and make women play, if Women WANT to play games they will, and I will give women the credit and respect that what gender a small bit of plastic might appear to be Does Not Bother Them, and if you truly believe it does, and that is why women don't play these games then you are painting women as incredibly Shallow, Vain people.

OMG .. yep face palm ... easy to solve ... ANY FEMALE PLAYERS OUT THERE PLEASE JUST RESPOND TO THIS THREAD WITH ... BOTHERED or NOT BOTHERED .... Many Thanks

1 hour ago, Slash Macbain said:

The kicker? Two-thirds of the executive story team on the upcoming Star Wars movie is female. “I’m confident we will eventually hire a woman who directs a Stars Wars movie,” Kennedy added.

Not .. We will hire the Best Director, Not we will hire the Most knowledgeable director .... We will hire a woman director, Just Coz!! .. oddly all the female directors she has tried to get have turned her down.

You're just trolling now, right?

What Kathleen Kennedy said and what you said in response is literally the exact opposite of the "problem" you then tried to illustrate. She specifically used the word "eventually," AND she has already hired male directors for all of the upcoming films, so the ONLY logical conclusion is that her statement means that she'll hire a woman when a woman is the most-qualified director, and she hasn't found that person yet, but she's confident that it will someday happen.

Your sarcasm says you think she's feeding you some sort of affirmative action statement (which appears to offend you on a deeper level than it probably should) , but what she said is literally the opposite of that.

So you're just trolling, right?

RIGHT?

On 08/02/2018 at 9:43 AM, player2017979 said:

Hahaha, I guess the fact that the majority of posts in this thread suggest there is nothing wrong here, kinda makes my point for me... Pity really...

Trolls keep on troll'n.

Jesus H. ****, I cant believe these people who are arguing against the very simple concept that more women (who were sensible, sensibly dressed characters, not eye candy) in games would be a good thing. But then I’m just some libtard SJW snowflake...

On 22/01/2018 at 12:37 AM, eviltwin61878 said:

apparently, I was wrong about one thing...

in Fallout 3, while Fawkes does suggest he is female in his dialogues, the creators admitted that was a mistake and they clearly intended for Fawkes to be a male

Where did you hear that? Got a link? I did some Googling but the results were all just people talking about the bit in the game where it’s revealed she’s female.

3 hours ago, mazz0 said:

Jesus H. ****, I cant believe these people who are arguing against the very simple concept that more women (who were sensible, sensibly dressed characters, not eye candy) in games would be a good thing. But then I’m just some libtard SJW snowflake...

Haha, I guess that makes the whole 4 of us who argued for this a bunch of LSJWS's (I'd probably add Unicorn in there somewhere "LSJWSU")... Maybe these people don't really want more women in the hobby? Seriously, that is the only reason I can see that anyone would argue against the idea... that and trolls?

27 minutes ago, player2017979 said:

Haha, I guess that makes the whole 4 of us who argued for this a bunch of LSJWS's (I'd probably add Unicorn in there somewhere "LSJWSU")... Maybe these people don't really want more women in the hobby? Seriously, that is the only reason I can see that anyone would argue against the idea... that and trolls?

I wish I could believe it was trolling...

I can't believe this s*** show is still going on. I tried to find a similar thread over on the Star Wars Legion forum, you know, cause all the stormtroopers and rebels look like dudes, but found nothing. Also hit Runebound but also came up empty handed. What gives? If we are on the path to re-writing established game lore for more female figs and proclaim games sexist, why stop here? And while you are at it, why not stop over at the PHG forums and commend them for including many female characters in their new IPs? Show some positivity there.

33 minutes ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:

I can't believe this s*** show is still going on. I tried to find a similar thread over on the Star Wars Legion forum, you know, cause all the stormtroopers and rebels look like dudes, but found nothing. Also hit Runebound but also came up empty handed. What gives? If we are on the path to re-writing established game lore for more female figs and proclaim games sexist, why stop here? And while you are at it, why not stop over at the PHG forums and commend them for including many female characters in their new IPs? Show some positivity there.

Whataboutism - Wikipedia

So you attempt to explain away your hypocrisy then? Good job, awesome show.

7 hours ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:

I can't believe this s*** show is still going on. I tried to find a similar thread over on the Star Wars Legion forum, you know, cause all the stormtroopers and rebels look like dudes, but found nothing. Also hit Runebound but also came up empty handed. What gives? If we are on the path to re-writing established game lore for more female figs and proclaim games sexist, why stop here? And while you are at it, why not stop over at the PHG forums and commend them for including many female characters in their new IPs? Show some positivity there.

Hmmm, I guess what I find strange is your level of frustration with the idea that it would've been nice to include some extra females in a game (that could be done without changing lore or being a problem very easily..).

As a side note, funnily enough, I think if Coconut Monkey had actually read the Wiki, they would have realised that they just did exactly what the Wiki was discussing.

I think what Mazz0 is trying to say is that people seem to be trying to argue against this idea by using a form of logical fallacy (in this case what is known as an informal fallacy). This means that people are using logical arguments about other ideas to affirm a point of view, and though it may be connected in some way, the conclusion is flawed because it isn't valid for what is actually currently being discussed.

In this case, you're using what's called statistical interference to argue against the idea that we should attempt to include more females, by saying that people aren't saying it's a problem there or there so therefore you must be wrong.

In other words you're saying:

If X isn't true for C.

And X isn't true for B.

Therefore X shouldn't be true for A.

By arguing about something else other than what was proposed in the first place, people think that this new argument has convincing merit. It's an old political trick of arguing around a point. What it does is side track the conversation away from the the original point and allow for an easier argument to be had about something else.

The statement was that it would have been nice to have more than one female character to choose from in this game and that it seemed a bit sexist that there wasn't. Not, are the other masculine looking characters female if you dig through lore or are there other people talking about this type of thing on other forums for other games...

If you don't think it matters to you then I guess that's your prerogative. The negativity comes from not allowing yourself to understand another persons disappointment in wanting to be able to choose from a larger variety of female characters.

The game is great fun, but yes it would have been nice for some us if there were more female characters to choose from because as it is, it feels a little sexist having only one seemingly token female.

Play with meeples then. Stop whining, you bought the game knowing what the minis are. So going by your logic. the game being sexist. You supported it by buying it.

By the way most board games in the grand scheme of things don't have minis. Yet this hobby is mostly male based by a huge margin. It has nothing to do with a mini being male or female that make someone want to play.

2 hours ago, crow-flash said:

Play with meeples then. Stop whining, you bought the game knowing what the minis are. So going by your logic. the game being sexist. You supported it by buying it.

By the way most board games in the grand scheme of things don't have minis. Yet this hobby is mostly male based by a huge margin. It has nothing to do with a mini being male or female that make someone want to play.

Where to start...

Where was player2017979 whining? Or is having any sort of critical opinion whining now?

Why suggest playing with other pieces or suggest there was anything wrong with buying it? Nobody's arguing that "OMG this game is terrible, it shouldn't exist, nobody should buy it, FFG are evil", though everyone on the "we don't want women" side seems to react as though we are. All we're saying is some more women in the game would be nice. That's it. Nothing about changing the lore, nothing about any other games, no whining, just one simple opinion about this game. What's wrong with that?

On 2/8/2018 at 11:25 PM, Almeric said:

You're just trolling now, right?

What Kathleen Kennedy said and what you said in response is literally the exact opposite of the "problem" you then tried to illustrate. She specifically used the word "eventually," AND she has already hired male directors for all of the upcoming films, so the ONLY logical conclusion is that her statement means that she'll hire a woman when a woman is the most-qualified director, and she hasn't found that person yet, but she's confident that it will someday happen.

Your sarcasm says you think she's feeding you some sort of affirmative action statement (which appears to offend you on a deeper level than it probably should) , but what she said is literally the opposite of that.

So you're just trolling, right?

RIGHT?

Oh No she has already tried to hire many Female directors and has been turned down by them all, if film gossip is to be believed, maybe these female directors want to be hired for their talent rather than Just Because they are a Woman?? ... and fair play to them, Very Good Integrity and Ideals I think

But as I requested to end the Debate .... female gamers to just state Bothered or Not Bothered !!

I see No posts by female gamers saying they are Bothered yet!!

1 hour ago, mazz0 said:

Where to start...

Where was player2017979 whining? Or is having any sort of critical opinion whining now?

Why suggest playing with other pieces or suggest there was anything wrong with buying it? Nobody's arguing that "OMG this game is terrible, it shouldn't exist, nobody should buy it, FFG are evil", though everyone on the "we don't want women" side seems to react as though we are. All we're saying is some more women in the game would be nice. That's it. Nothing about changing the lore, nothing about any other games, no whining, just one simple opinion about this game. What's wrong with that?

It all stems from the actual start of this thread. "Sexism never changes". Granted, this thread has taken many twists and turns along the way and has ended up with a few people just standing on their soap boxes, arguing just to say they argued for something. I was (and am) never against more frequency of female characters in anything. From books to games to movies. I could care less. But to blast this game because there are fewer "perceived" female characters and lore be damned, well I don't know what else to tell you.

In the end, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I agree that women can be represented more (as can a slew of minorities as well). I disagree that the Fallout game is sexist.

8 hours ago, XCoconutMonkey06X said:

In the end, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree. I agree that women can be represented more (as can a slew of minorities as well). I disagree that the Fallout game is sexist.

That's an interesting distinction... On one hand you believe that representation could be improved but on the other you think that this game isn't sexist and it doesn't need to be improved because of your knowledge of the lore behind game...

I can understand that, you (and others) have a perspective of this particular game that allows you to feel ok about the characterisation because of the extra knowledge you have of the background of this game.

So I guess that is what it comes down to (at least I hope it is). It's background knowledge of the lore that prevents people from seeing that there is a problem.

Perhaps if you were to all try and look at it from the perspective of someone that didn't know much about the franchise you might gain an understanding as to why some people are saying there is a problem. The original post was from a perspective that didn't have that same knowledge of Fallout lore and without that, it is easily perceived that on the surface, this game comes across as sexist because it would appear that there is only one "token" female in the game.

It's not a case of ignoring lore (most people don't know the lore), it's just a case of looking at something from someone else's point of view.

If the designers had thought about both lore and equity, it would've been easy to add at least one more female character without messing with the insider knowledge of what the game is and what it means to it's fans.

Win win!

I always think that empathy and intellect are the keys to understanding...

See the only person who see this as a issue is you. And your not even a female. Like others have said we disagree and will not see it eye to eye.

23 hours ago, crow-flash said:

See the only person who see this as a issue is you. And your not even a female. Like others have said we disagree and will not see it eye to eye.

??? I'm pretty sure that's where this whole post started, with someone's girlfriend and their freinds being frustrated by the lack of choice...

..but oh well, I guess one or two people can't possibly be right in the face of a herd of boys saying there's nothing wrong with only including one token girl!

I was kind of hoping that people would read the posts and realise that it's no skin off their nose if they were to add another girl and go "yeah that would've been cool"...

My mistake.

I guess all I can say at this point is, that this attitude of actively disregarding and arguing against the need for active inclusion of women in games, is a sad reflection of why the board game community at large is perceived so negatively as a bunch of cliche nerdboys. But as I said earlier, I guess that's your prerogative (emphasis on the word prerogative)...

I don't think anyone is against girls in the game. But to make a thread and call this game sexist is wrong. What I'm not for is forcing games,movies,art books etc to bend to appease people. Once you force that it's no longer art or freedom. This goes all ways.

Make great games movies art etc. Don't just shoehorn in things. Everyone has different views. No one is right or wrong.

I doubt this game will even see a expansion. As more characters miniatures might have been added. Fantasy flight games base on video games don't have a good track record for that.

At the end of the day, fantasy flight games has put a ton of female characters in its other games.

42 minutes ago, crow-flash said:

I don't think anyone is against girls in the game. But to make a thread and call this game sexist is wrong. What I'm not for is forcing games,movies,art books etc to bend to appease people. Once you force that it's no longer art or freedom. This goes all ways.

I guess I just don't get this strange need to so vigorously rally against the idea that the game might be seen as sexist.

No-one is "forcing" anyone to do anything, more pointing out that they were bored of the oversight. Someone stated an opinion that they thought this particular game (or piece of "art") had a problem in it's expression and that was seen to them, and others, as sexist.

You might not see it that way, but surely you should be able to understand that other people could easily think that.

No-one is saying the designers are evil or deliberately anti feminist knuckle draggers. Someone's just gone, "Ah hey, I'm a bit over the cliche token "chick" thing. Don't you think that, in this day and age, it would've been really nice to have had a few more women in this game, cause women, like all people, like that sort of thing... you know, being equally considered as part of the community"...

I for one wouldn't have had anything against one or two more visibly female characters. Apart from the Wastelander that is. But to go so far as to call the game sexist, though, is another matter.

The game, or rather FFG, does not objectify the one visibly female character that does exist, nor is said character belittled in any way due to gender.

I would agree that FFG unfortunatley dropped the ball on the opportunity to make another character visibly female, such as the Vault Dweller for instance, but sexist? No. At least not by my definition of the word.

6 hours ago, player2017979 said:

You might not see it that way, but surely you should be able to understand that other people could easily think that.

Sorry, that's the problem you seem to have. Cause we don't see it that way cause it's not sexist.

13 hours ago, player2017979 said:

Perhaps if you were to all try and look at it from the perspective of someone that didn't know much about the franchise you might gain an understanding as to why some people are saying there is a problem. The original post was from a perspective that didn't have that same knowledge of Fallout lore and without that, it is easily perceived that on the surface, this game comes across as sexist because it would appear that there is only one "token" female in the game.

And see, that is where the issue lays. It is a game that is appealing to the fans of that franchise. You water that down and/or change that and you upset your target audience, which are fans of the Fallout game and lore. This game wasn't initially designed for those who are ignorant of Fallout. Otherwise, they would have made a new IP. This is a licensed game because they want to draw on those fans and pull them into the board game market, if they weren't already. We saw that a little bit with the Bioshock game, Doom, Gears of War, etc... There is a distinct lack of female characters in those games as well but it isn't sexist because that is how the video games are and to change that would piss off the fans.

Like I said earlier, new IPs, I am all for more diversity. This industry could use it. My previous example of Ashes is a great example. They have male phoenixborn, female phoenixborn, and phoenixborn of a variety of races and it is awesome. Something there for everyone in addition to being a great game. But in this instance, your fight just doesn't fit or work. If you have an issue with that area, you need to hit up Bethesda.