Kanluwen said:
The only two examples I've seen of Deathwatch Chaplains come from C.S. Goto novels.
Thereby, Deathwatch Chaplains do not exist! Quick mods, close the thread before any of Goto's horrors are allowed to spread unchecked across the Immaterium!
Too late.
Multi.
Lasers.
Chaplains wouldn't make a good class as its more akin to Elite advancement package or last rank like Captain. After all, there is usually only one Chaplain per company like there is only one Captain.
And no, you don't get to point at "but they are like DH Clerics but for Space Marines... Adeptus Astartes are battle-brothers, which makes the all religious class by default. They are all already Cleric/Guardsmen from DH point of view. I'd like to see Chaplain as one possible advancement path for DW characters, but never as a class. You don't make Captain class either.
Kanluwen said:
Routa-maa said:
Kanluwen said:
The only two examples I've seen of Deathwatch Chaplains come from C.S. Goto novels.
Thereby, Deathwatch Chaplains do not exist! Quick mods, close the thread before any of Goto's horrors are allowed to spread unchecked across the Immaterium!
So if there are only two references then it's not true. Hmmm why would Deathwatch leave out Chaplains. Too different world view or the different creed. Still they would probably be most effective Xenos killers because they have all that hate inside them. I don't see any point why would the not exist. And also their oratory would probably be like throwing fuel to fire to keep battle-brothers fighting when they are besieged by Xenos scum.
More likely, they're left out specifically BECAUSE of all that hate. Hate's not conductive to 'good' relations that sometimes occur with the Ordos Xenos, which is seemingly the only Ordos where there's no issue with occasionally allying with Xenos. Add in the fact that letting a Chaplain in would result in the destruction of any/all Xenos material, and huge protests whenever the Ordos practices the "Knowledge is Power" viewpoint rather than the "RAWR SLAUGHTER!" viewpoint.
Err...members of the Ordo Xenos would never openly ally with an alien. Not sure where you got that. A Radical Inquisitor might do it in secret, but if he did, he sure wouldn't let any Deathwatch Marines know about it. That's a sure-fire way to an abruptly shortened life.
Atheosis said:
Kanluwen said:
Routa-maa said:
Kanluwen said:
The only two examples I've seen of Deathwatch Chaplains come from C.S. Goto novels.
Thereby, Deathwatch Chaplains do not exist! Quick mods, close the thread before any of Goto's horrors are allowed to spread unchecked across the Immaterium!
So if there are only two references then it's not true. Hmmm why would Deathwatch leave out Chaplains. Too different world view or the different creed. Still they would probably be most effective Xenos killers because they have all that hate inside them. I don't see any point why would the not exist. And also their oratory would probably be like throwing fuel to fire to keep battle-brothers fighting when they are besieged by Xenos scum.
More likely, they're left out specifically BECAUSE of all that hate. Hate's not conductive to 'good' relations that sometimes occur with the Ordos Xenos, which is seemingly the only Ordos where there's no issue with occasionally allying with Xenos. Add in the fact that letting a Chaplain in would result in the destruction of any/all Xenos material, and huge protests whenever the Ordos practices the "Knowledge is Power" viewpoint rather than the "RAWR SLAUGHTER!" viewpoint.
Err...members of the Ordo Xenos would never openly ally with an alien. Not sure where you got that. A Radical Inquisitor might do it in secret, but if he did, he sure wouldn't let any Deathwatch Marines know about it. That's a sure-fire way to an abruptly shortened life.
Actually, the Ordo Xenos is by far the most 'flexible' of the Ordos in regards to Radical/Puritan.
It's acceptable to 'ally' with the Xenos...so long as you're intending to slaughter them afterwards. There's been quite a few references of Xenos Inquisitors working alongside the Eldar to further the Imperium's goalsand then brutally massacring them when those goals are met.
After all, Xenos are no more than tools. Where's the harm in using that tool for a purpose?
It's when they start emulating/treating the Xenos like they're people that the Imperium gets worried.
Perhaps we'll see the chaplain in the inqui.. the Deathwatch Handbook. After all why wouldn't the deathwatch marines need a chaplain to administer the last rites before they go into a battle mission. Most they are expected to sacrifice their lives to make sure the mission succeeds.
Lucas Adorn said:
Perhaps we'll see the chaplain in the inqui.. the Deathwatch Handbook. After all why wouldn't the deathwatch marines need a chaplain to administer the last rites before they go into a battle mission. Most they are expected to sacrifice their lives to make sure the mission succeeds.
Except that an Ultramarines Chaplain wouldn't be suitable to minister to a Space Wolf, Blood Angel or Dark Angel - different chapter cults, different traditions, different requirements and rituals. In the case of First Founding Chapters, you're dealing with hundred-century-old traditions which can't be easily or quickly imparted. By comparison, the genetic legacies an Apothecary inducted into the Deathwatch must learn are far less involved.
A Chaplain is more useful to his Chapter than he is to the Deathwatch; afterall, the Deathwatch know that they're doing the Emperor's work, as they're serving in the Deathwatch at the behest of the Inquisition who are empowered with the Emperor's authority.
Kanluwen said:
Atheosis said:
Kanluwen said:
Routa-maa said:
Kanluwen said:
The only two examples I've seen of Deathwatch Chaplains come from C.S. Goto novels.
Thereby, Deathwatch Chaplains do not exist! Quick mods, close the thread before any of Goto's horrors are allowed to spread unchecked across the Immaterium!
So if there are only two references then it's not true. Hmmm why would Deathwatch leave out Chaplains. Too different world view or the different creed. Still they would probably be most effective Xenos killers because they have all that hate inside them. I don't see any point why would the not exist. And also their oratory would probably be like throwing fuel to fire to keep battle-brothers fighting when they are besieged by Xenos scum.
More likely, they're left out specifically BECAUSE of all that hate. Hate's not conductive to 'good' relations that sometimes occur with the Ordos Xenos, which is seemingly the only Ordos where there's no issue with occasionally allying with Xenos. Add in the fact that letting a Chaplain in would result in the destruction of any/all Xenos material, and huge protests whenever the Ordos practices the "Knowledge is Power" viewpoint rather than the "RAWR SLAUGHTER!" viewpoint.
Err...members of the Ordo Xenos would never openly ally with an alien. Not sure where you got that. A Radical Inquisitor might do it in secret, but if he did, he sure wouldn't let any Deathwatch Marines know about it. That's a sure-fire way to an abruptly shortened life.
Actually, the Ordo Xenos is by far the most 'flexible' of the Ordos in regards to Radical/Puritan.
It's acceptable to 'ally' with the Xenos...so long as you're intending to slaughter them afterwards. There's been quite a few references of Xenos Inquisitors working alongside the Eldar to further the Imperium's goalsand then brutally massacring them when those goals are met.
After all, Xenos are no more than tools. Where's the harm in using that tool for a purpose?
It's when they start emulating/treating the Xenos like they're people that the Imperium gets worried.
Not openly. Never openly. Such alliances are always secret. Deathwatch Marines would be deliberately kept in the dark on such things. Beyond that, I'm not sure where you got the idea that Ordo Xenos is more "flexible" than other ordos. As far as I'm aware that just isn't true. They're all flexible to a certain degree, but not in a way that would ever be out in the open.
Atheosis said:
Remember, the Deathwatch are to their non-Deathwatch brethren as an Acolyte Guardsman is to his former squad-mates from his old regiment - he's not an example of an average individual, but something more. Like Acolytes of the Inquisition, the Deathwatch have access to greater knowledge, and are expected to make more informed decisions - mindless killbots they are not.
A Deathwatch Marine will likely tolerate things that would be unconscionable to his battle brothers back home... but that's why he's Deathwatch and they're not: he's willing to take a different approach for the good of the Imperium. If the Deathwatch were just normal Space Marines, there'd be no point in them existing as a distinct group - an Inquisitor would just call for a squad to be borrowed from the nearest available Astartes Chapter. Consequently, the missions they perform are different to those that might be performed by an ordinary Squad, and so are the conditions they operate within. If this means occasionally operating alongside temporary Xenos allies (which, it should be remembered, has happened in regards to ordinary Astartes groups before as well), then so be it, just so long as the mission is completed and the Imperium benefits.
N0-1_H3r3 said:
Atheosis said:
Remember, the Deathwatch are to their non-Deathwatch brethren as an Acolyte Guardsman is to his former squad-mates from his old regiment - he's not an example of an average individual, but something more. Like Acolytes of the Inquisition, the Deathwatch have access to greater knowledge, and are expected to make more informed decisions - mindless killbots they are not.
A Deathwatch Marine will likely tolerate things that would be unconscionable to his battle brothers back home... but that's why he's Deathwatch and they're not: he's willing to take a different approach for the good of the Imperium. If the Deathwatch were just normal Space Marines, there'd be no point in them existing as a distinct group - an Inquisitor would just call for a squad to be borrowed from the nearest available Astartes Chapter. Consequently, the missions they perform are different to those that might be performed by an ordinary Squad, and so are the conditions they operate within. If this means occasionally operating alongside temporary Xenos allies (which, it should be remembered, has happened in regards to ordinary Astartes groups before as well), then so be it, just so long as the mission is completed and the Imperium benefits.
This all really about a matter of degree. It probably is true that a Deathwatch Marine would likely have a different outlook than standard Marine. After all he is likely going to be exposed to situations that his brothers wouldn't dream of. That said, he isn't going to become open and friendly with Xenos or those who ally themselves with such creatures. The most you can hope for is a temporary tolerance born of pragmatism (i.e. the threat at hand is so dire that working with Eldar can be temporarily put up with). A Radical who consorts with aliens on a regular basis is a different matter entirely. What I was trying to say with what you quoted was that a Radical Inquisitor would keep his associations with Xenos to himself when dealing with Deathwatch. I wasn't trying to say they weren't knowledgable. They know that many Inquisitor's are of weak moral character (which is how I would imagine they would perceive it), but that only really keeps them vigilant against succumbing to Xenos taint themselves.
This is not intended to flare up any more fighting, I just want to point out a couple of things..
1. Deathwatch are pulled from chapters, and then trained to work together. It is through this training you see a Dark Angel beside an Ultramarine under a Black Templar leader. It is because while they are from those chapters, they are trained now to serve in the Deathwatch. This is also if memory recalls a limited term of service. It is by this simple concept that any and all positions of Space Marine could exist as Deathwatch. Most likely, the Chaplin would minister from rites taught to him for Deathwatch purposes, which all Deathwatch Marines could be ministered by. When this term is over, he retains this knowledge going back to his Chapter, and will conduct his Chapter rites and rituals accordingly, but quite possibly with some tint of the Deathwatch.
2. If I recall correctly from some articles a few years ago, the reason their were limited roles of Deathwatch for 40K was to keep folks from stacking certain roles in their armies. Some roles are ok if there doubled up, others could be abused. But along the way, I've never understood it from anyone at GW that a particular type of Marine was ever looked over for Deathwatch duty simply because of the role he filled for the Chapter. That would hold back X number of battle brothers from the chance at the Honor of service in the Deathwatch.
3. While rites and rituals are Chapter specific - Assuming I'm wrong about the concept that Deathwatch has its own to teach a Chaplin - on the battle field, the prayers all still point back in the general direction of service to the Emperor in one form or another. I've read short and long stories where a Chaplin's battle field prayers inspired not only the Marines with the Chaplin, but also the Sisters of Battle and or Imperial Guard around them. I would think part of the selection process for Deathwatch, would be a means to work more neutrally with other chapters, and as a result, be able to draw the same level of faith no matter which Chapter's prayers are presented. In the end, service to one's Primarch, to the Emperor, to one's battle gear, these are core to the Marine. Doesn't matter who reminds them of the duty, so long as the reminding is done.
That is my two bits. If I get flamed for it, I'll just ignore the flamer way I always do. Personally I think FFG and GW will do right by the concepts of the Universe.
Stormweaver said:
This is not intended to flare up any more fighting, I just want to point out a couple of things..
1. Deathwatch are pulled from chapters, and then trained to work together. It is through this training you see a Dark Angel beside an Ultramarine under a Black Templar leader. It is because while they are from those chapters, they are trained now to serve in the Deathwatch. This is also if memory recalls a limited term of service. It is by this simple concept that any and all positions of Space Marine could exist as Deathwatch. Most likely, the Chaplin would minister from rites taught to him for Deathwatch purposes, which all Deathwatch Marines could be ministered by. When this term is over, he retains this knowledge going back to his Chapter, and will conduct his Chapter rites and rituals accordingly, but quite possibly with some tint of the Deathwatch.
2. If I recall correctly from some articles a few years ago, the reason their were limited roles of Deathwatch for 40K was to keep folks from stacking certain roles in their armies. Some roles are ok if there doubled up, others could be abused. But along the way, I've never understood it from anyone at GW that a particular type of Marine was ever looked over for Deathwatch duty simply because of the role he filled for the Chapter. That would hold back X number of battle brothers from the chance at the Honor of service in the Deathwatch.
3. While rites and rituals are Chapter specific - Assuming I'm wrong about the concept that Deathwatch has its own to teach a Chaplin - on the battle field, the prayers all still point back in the general direction of service to the Emperor in one form or another. I've read short and long stories where a Chaplin's battle field prayers inspired not only the Marines with the Chaplin, but also the Sisters of Battle and or Imperial Guard around them. I would think part of the selection process for Deathwatch, would be a means to work more neutrally with other chapters, and as a result, be able to draw the same level of faith no matter which Chapter's prayers are presented. In the end, service to one's Primarch, to the Emperor, to one's battle gear, these are core to the Marine. Doesn't matter who reminds them of the duty, so long as the reminding is done.
That is my two bits. If I get flamed for it, I'll just ignore the flamer way I always do. Personally I think FFG and GW will do right by the concepts of the Universe.
So you're saying Deathwatch has it's own chapter cult? I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
There are two reasons why Deathwatch doesn't have Chaplains:
1) Each chapter only has one Chaplain per company, and is therefore not going to second oneit's too great a loss.
2) Chapter cults are not particularly compatible. Just think of a Wolf Priest trying to inspire a Black Templar. You see a problem there? I sure do.
So you're saying Deathwatch has it's own chapter cult? I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
There are two reasons why Deathwatch doesn't have Chaplains:
1) Each chapter only has one Chaplain per company, and is therefore not going to second oneit's too great a loss.
2) Chapter cults are not particularly compatible. Just think of a Wolf Priest trying to inspire a Black Templar. You see a problem there? I sure do.
First of all, thank you for not being rude or flaming my response, allow me a chance to defend my stance and respond to your points.
Do I think Deathwatch has its own Chapter Cult? No. I do not believe I said it did, and if I imply it, I'm sorry. What I am saying is that the Deathwatch has its own rituals and methods. How they handle a situation is different from any chapter. The Deathwatch are a highly and specially trained Marines who serve and then return to their Original Chapter with not only what they learned, but with their equipment as well. It is up to these folks to help prepare the Chapter when the Chapter must engage the Xenos. Part of that training would be learning how to work together with Brother Marines from other Chapters as well as rituals and rites that would be added as extra protection against the Xenos in general, and quite possibly a particular Xenos in question. Someone has to fulfill that role. They don't just pluck up a dozen marines and them in X situation and not prepare them to do battle in this unusually hard situation. Think of the sheer might of a Company who's Chaplain and or Brother-Captain and or Librarian have served in Deathwatch against the Eldar. That Company is better prepared to fight them because the leadership core is specially trained. And while the tabletop does not account for the term of service when fielding them in regular marine armies, the RPG side could easily take into account this extra training.
In terms of Ministering to one another, while with Deathwatch, I believe they would do things the way Deathwatch would train them, and on returning to their Chapter, combine what they know with what they have learned. I don't believe a Deathwatch Chaplain would any more use Ultramarine Rituals to inspire the Black Templar then I would believe the Dark Angel Brother-Captain would use Dark Angel battle techniques to lead a Deathwatch Squad against the Dark Eldar.
While there is only one Chaplain per Company - That does not mean that there are not others being trained, after all, when a Chaplain dies, someone has to step up to fulfill that role, even more so during battle. So the idea that Chaplains in training and or other Chaplain's who are trained but serving as retinue to the Chaplain, or in other roles until needed makes them still viable to be sent. And honestly, while there has not been a special character yet who is a Chaplain that has served a term of service in the tabletop game, they have not named every Marine who has, and its more that the person has not stood out against the backlike others who have. I mean lets face it, look at the Ultramarine's stance with Ordo Xenos and the Inquisition, they would be honored to have a Chaplain who has fought as Deathwatch minister to the units sent to deal with any Xenos raid.
If there is one thing I've come to understand from both the folks at GW and the folks at FFG - The two systems can not be set as the limiter or standard for the other. Many of the tabletop rules were set to stop suitcase players and power mongers from stat stacking. And the idea of one Chaplain per company is part of that, imagine if a player could field 2 Chaplains *shivers* that would be holy unfair to anyone else in the engagement. If you take ideas such as "Each chapter only has one Chaplain per company" from the tabletop as a limiter against the RPG, you are toying with the idea that there is no one to train a replacement once that mini is killed, and or the idea that a Company would have to fight the rest of an engagement without someone seeing to the souls and purity of the company.
I fully agree with you, that a Marine who is serving currently as Chaplain of a Company would not be selected. But, he has to have chance at some point to have been selected, or suddenly you have to toy with the idea that Chaplains are not of enough Honor to serve the Deathwatch.
I understand where you are coming from friend, what I am asking is that you step back for a second, put aside the tabletop rules, and think in terms of the 40K reality. If there are 10 Companies in a Chapter - do you really feel that there are only 10 Chaplains in the Chapter? 1st Company's Chaplain is going to be too busy seeing to 1st Company to train a Chaplain for 2nd Company. Most likely, Chaplain in 1st company has a retinue and of those in that retinue, one or more of them, is being trained in the rites and rituals and day to day duties of 1st Company and the Chapter in general. And most likely there is a hierarchy of - if this man falls here is the order of who steps up next, so that there is no confusion on the battleground. The same goes with the Standard Bearer, Brother-Captain, or any other role. The whole of the Chapter would be set in Hierarchy from the 1st man in Company to the lowest of the low as to who moves up when battle comes.
I am sorry if my thoughts differ from anyone else's, I'd really like for Reps from GW and or FFG to step up here and give a response.
Thanks again for responding to my post.
Stormweaver
Stormweaver said:
So you're saying Deathwatch has it's own chapter cult? I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
There are two reasons why Deathwatch doesn't have Chaplains:
1) Each chapter only has one Chaplain per company, and is therefore not going to second oneit's too great a loss.
2) Chapter cults are not particularly compatible. Just think of a Wolf Priest trying to inspire a Black Templar. You see a problem there? I sure do.
First of all, thank you for not being rude or flaming my response, allow me a chance to defend my stance and respond to your points.
Do I think Deathwatch has its own Chapter Cult? No. I do not believe I said it did, and if I imply it, I'm sorry. What I am saying is that the Deathwatch has its own rituals and methods. How they handle a situation is different from any chapter. The Deathwatch are a highly and specially trained Marines who serve and then return to their Original Chapter with not only what they learned, but with their equipment as well. It is up to these folks to help prepare the Chapter when the Chapter must engage the Xenos. Part of that training would be learning how to work together with Brother Marines from other Chapters as well as rituals and rites that would be added as extra protection against the Xenos in general, and quite possibly a particular Xenos in question. Someone has to fulfill that role. They don't just pluck up a dozen marines and them in X situation and not prepare them to do battle in this unusually hard situation. Think of the sheer might of a Company who's Chaplain and or Brother-Captain and or Librarian have served in Deathwatch against the Eldar. That Company is better prepared to fight them because the leadership core is specially trained. And while the tabletop does not account for the term of service when fielding them in regular marine armies, the RPG side could easily take into account this extra training.
In terms of Ministering to one another, while with Deathwatch, I believe they would do things the way Deathwatch would train them, and on returning to their Chapter, combine what they know with what they have learned. I don't believe a Deathwatch Chaplain would any more use Ultramarine Rituals to inspire the Black Templar then I would believe the Dark Angel Brother-Captain would use Dark Angel battle techniques to lead a Deathwatch Squad against the Dark Eldar.
While there is only one Chaplain per Company - That does not mean that there are not others being trained, after all, when a Chaplain dies, someone has to step up to fulfill that role, even more so during battle. So the idea that Chaplains in training and or other Chaplain's who are trained but serving as retinue to the Chaplain, or in other roles until needed makes them still viable to be sent. And honestly, while there has not been a special character yet who is a Chaplain that has served a term of service in the tabletop game, they have not named every Marine who has, and its more that the person has not stood out against the backlike others who have. I mean lets face it, look at the Ultramarine's stance with Ordo Xenos and the Inquisition, they would be honored to have a Chaplain who has fought as Deathwatch minister to the units sent to deal with any Xenos raid.
If there is one thing I've come to understand from both the folks at GW and the folks at FFG - The two systems can not be set as the limiter or standard for the other. Many of the tabletop rules were set to stop suitcase players and power mongers from stat stacking. And the idea of one Chaplain per company is part of that, imagine if a player could field 2 Chaplains *shivers* that would be holy unfair to anyone else in the engagement. If you take ideas such as "Each chapter only has one Chaplain per company" from the tabletop as a limiter against the RPG, you are toying with the idea that there is no one to train a replacement once that mini is killed, and or the idea that a Company would have to fight the rest of an engagement without someone seeing to the souls and purity of the company.
I fully agree with you, that a Marine who is serving currently as Chaplain of a Company would not be selected. But, he has to have chance at some point to have been selected, or suddenly you have to toy with the idea that Chaplains are not of enough Honor to serve the Deathwatch.
I understand where you are coming from friend, what I am asking is that you step back for a second, put aside the tabletop rules, and think in terms of the 40K reality. If there are 10 Companies in a Chapter - do you really feel that there are only 10 Chaplains in the Chapter? 1st Company's Chaplain is going to be too busy seeing to 1st Company to train a Chaplain for 2nd Company. Most likely, Chaplain in 1st company has a retinue and of those in that retinue, one or more of them, is being trained in the rites and rituals and day to day duties of 1st Company and the Chapter in general. And most likely there is a hierarchy of - if this man falls here is the order of who steps up next, so that there is no confusion on the battleground. The same goes with the Standard Bearer, Brother-Captain, or any other role. The whole of the Chapter would be set in Hierarchy from the 1st man in Company to the lowest of the low as to who moves up when battle comes.
I am sorry if my thoughts differ from anyone else's, I'd really like for Reps from GW and or FFG to step up here and give a response.
Thanks again for responding to my post.
Stormweaver
There's a couple things I think you don't really understand about Chaplains. They aren't "trained" first off. Chaplains are selected by Chapter command from those Marines that show a particularly zealous and devout character and who show an extremely high regard and knowledge of the chapter cult. All Marines are trained in the various battle rites and litanies, so any of them might theoretically become a Chaplain. There's really no special training per se.
Another thing is the idea that a Chaplain isn't going to temporarily put his beliefs aside. It just isn't going to happen. Neither is he going to adopt rituals that are not a part of his Chapter's cult. Beyond that, what special rituals do you think the Deathwatch are going to use? Seeing as they are essentially an arm of the Inquisition, are they going to be based off the beliefs of the Imperial Cult? That most definitely wouldn't be something a Chaplain would participate in.
Finally, there really is no need for Chaplains in Deathwatch because Marines seconded to them are specifically chosen because they're verterans with stong faith and willpower. They are all going to be well-versed in their Chapter's rites and litanies, and are ultimately going to be responsible for their own spiritual puity while with Deathwatch. Truth be told, I'm sure many Chaplains have served in Deathwatch. It would be an excellent training ground for such warriors. Before their Chaplaincy that is.
The rank of Chaplain is a very high and honored one within a Chapter. There aren't junior Chaplains as there are with Librarians. What you're proposing is akin to the idea of seconding Captains and Chapter Masters. It just isn't done.
By the way a TT player can field two Chaplains.
How you see it and how I see it are two different things. Neither of us is right or wrong, we just both view it differently. As such, I am withdrawing my comments. My apologies for raising thoughts here.
Stormweaver
The marines seconded to the Deathwatch are all battle hardened veterans who have served in all capacities in their Chapter and have settled into the role they are best at, be that Tactical, Devastator, or Assault. The other three options are all specialist; Techmarine, Apothecary, Librarian. These veterans are strong in their faiths and able to endure a period of separation from their Chapter without constant reinforcement of the Chapters doctrines that Chaplains provide.
What function would Chaplains fulfill in a Deathwatch Kill Team? The team is primarily structured to hunt the biggest, baddest, Xenos threats around. A Chaplain doesn't really offer the Kill Team much. They wouldn't be functioning like a Preacher in a Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader game, preaching the general faith in the Emperor, their beliefs are much more narrow and the Deathwatch isn't out there to convert the Xenos to worshiping the Emperor. It is unrealistic to think that these zealous keepers of the Chapter tenants would set them aside and temporarily adopt some more generalized Unitarian screed simply to be able to minister to marines of various Chapters. It's one thing to have to overlook the differences between Chapter beliefs to be able to work side by side with them in the first place without some guy constantly beating you over the head with his beliefs. I'd say Chaplains in the Deathwatch would do more harm than good.
In terms of the RPG, I can't think what niche they could create for the Chaplain to make him a viable choice compared to the others already presented. We know that Deathwatch was always intended to be the one of the three RPGs that was more combat focused. While FFG will create opportunities to do more than just conduct a series of skirmishes, the "classes" presented clearly address specific battlefield roles; long-range fire support, close combat specialist, tech/repair guy, healer, psyker, and generalist. Other than his righteous zeal for the Chapter's tenants, a Chaplain is basically a Veteran marine with power weapon and an invulnerable save. Those of you lobbying for Chaplains, what special skills and talents would he have to make him worth playing and different enough from one of the other choices?
mac40k said:
The marines seconded to the Deathwatch are all battle hardened veterans who have served in all capacities in their Chapter and have settled into the role they are best at, be that Tactical, Devastator, or Assault. The other three options are all specialist; Techmarine, Apothecary, Librarian. These veterans are strong in their faiths and able to endure a period of separation from their Chapter without constant reinforcement of the Chapters doctrines that Chaplains provide.
What function would Chaplains fulfill in a Deathwatch Kill Team? The team is primarily structured to hunt the biggest, baddest, Xenos threats around. A Chaplain doesn't really offer the Kill Team much. They wouldn't be functioning like a Preacher in a Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader game, preaching the general faith in the Emperor, their beliefs are much more narrow and the Deathwatch isn't out there to convert the Xenos to worshiping the Emperor. It is unrealistic to think that these zealous keepers of the Chapter tenants would set them aside and temporarily adopt some more generalized Unitarian screed simply to be able to minister to marines of various Chapters. It's one thing to have to overlook the differences between Chapter beliefs to be able to work side by side with them in the first place without some guy constantly beating you over the head with his beliefs. I'd say Chaplains in the Deathwatch would do more harm than good.
In terms of the RPG, I can't think what niche they could create for the Chaplain to make him a viable choice compared to the others already presented. We know that Deathwatch was always intended to be the one of the three RPGs that was more combat focused. While FFG will create opportunities to do more than just conduct a series of skirmishes, the "classes" presented clearly address specific battlefield roles; long-range fire support, close combat specialist, tech/repair guy, healer, psyker, and generalist. Other than his righteous zeal for the Chapter's tenants, a Chaplain is basically a Veteran marine with power weapon and an invulnerable save. Those of you lobbying for Chaplains, what special skills and talents would he have to make him worth playing and different enough from one of the other choices?
You do understand that people just want a skull mask on their helmet right? Come to think of it, I want one too...
Atheosis said:
You do understand that people just want a skull mask on their helmet right? Come to think of it, I want one too...
You might be on to something here
.
mac40k said:
I'm not lobbying for a Chaplain but, like the Sister of Battle from DH and Confessor from Rouge Trader, they could have Faith based powers. Maybe some special lore (common, forbidden, or scholastic) or crafting skills could be brought. Role Playing wise they fill a space for someone who is uncompromising which could potentially cause lots of conflict. I’m not pushing for it, if one of my players really wants to be one and justifies it I, as GM, am then tasked with making it work if I want to. And you brought up the special gear only they get, that sets them apart. I mean in all honesty why have Tactical Marines and Devastator Marines? In all honesty Devastator Marines are just glorified Tactical Marines with bigger guns in almost every chapter but the Space Wolves... So if you can justify Devastators you could, if you really wanted to, justify Chaplains.
Just to point out two things here (besides the obvious that no chapter is going to give up a chaplain to the deathwatch)...
1) Chaplains are not one per company like some people keep stating, like the Librarium of a chapter, the Chaplains are not parts of the companies usually, and the number of chaplains per Chapter will vary...for instance, the Blood Angels have alot (want proof, check out the new codex, they can put 6 on the board at the same time if they have the points) as do the Black Templars, but some, like the Dark Angels have very few (although with the dark angels, one supposes thats because to be a DA chaplain, you have to be a member of the inner circle of hereti...er, secret keepers, which would exclude anything resembling a prior member of the deathwatch). Sooo...yeah...which leads me to...
2) Chaplains earn their position like everyone else in a Chapter. The Reclusarch(s) particularly zealous (read ravening psycho, gotta remember, marines are pretty zealous to begin with) and train em up, test their faith, and give em their pretty skull mask after teaching them the rites they need to know. Which are going to vary by chapter.
Yeah. Just two things I wanted to say...
Seriously, probably not going to see a deathwatch chaplain, everything else there has been either directly in a codex/white dwarf, or implied by such. Just not chaplains.
Dodskrigaren said:
Just to point out two things here (besides the obvious that no chapter is going to give up a chaplain to the deathwatch)...
1) Chaplains are not one per company like some people keep stating, like the Librarium of a chapter, the Chaplains are not parts of the companies usually, and the number of chaplains per Chapter will vary...for instance, the Blood Angels have alot (want proof, check out the new codex, they can put 6 on the board at the same time if they have the points) as do the Black Templars, but some, like the Dark Angels have very few (although with the dark angels, one supposes thats because to be a DA chaplain, you have to be a member of the inner circle of hereti...er, secret keepers, which would exclude anything resembling a prior member of the deathwatch). Sooo...yeah...which leads me to...
2) Chaplains earn their position like everyone else in a Chapter. The Reclusarch(s) particularly zealous (read ravening psycho, gotta remember, marines are pretty zealous to begin with) and train em up, test their faith, and give em their pretty skull mask after teaching them the rites they need to know. Which are going to vary by chapter.
Yeah. Just two things I wanted to say...
Seriously, probably not going to see a deathwatch chaplain, everything else there has been either directly in a codex/white dwarf, or implied by such. Just not chaplains.
Here ya go: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaplain
Oh and this: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:CodexOrganisation.jpg
Maybe the Blood Angels are oddities, but well yeah that pretty much sums it up for codex chapters. One Chaplain per company plus a Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity is the set number.
Atheosis said:
Dodskrigaren said:
Just to point out two things here (besides the obvious that no chapter is going to give up a chaplain to the deathwatch)...
1) Chaplains are not one per company like some people keep stating, like the Librarium of a chapter, the Chaplains are not parts of the companies usually, and the number of chaplains per Chapter will vary...for instance, the Blood Angels have alot (want proof, check out the new codex, they can put 6 on the board at the same time if they have the points) as do the Black Templars, but some, like the Dark Angels have very few (although with the dark angels, one supposes thats because to be a DA chaplain, you have to be a member of the inner circle of hereti...er, secret keepers, which would exclude anything resembling a prior member of the deathwatch). Sooo...yeah...which leads me to...
2) Chaplains earn their position like everyone else in a Chapter. The Reclusarch(s) particularly zealous (read ravening psycho, gotta remember, marines are pretty zealous to begin with) and train em up, test their faith, and give em their pretty skull mask after teaching them the rites they need to know. Which are going to vary by chapter.
Yeah. Just two things I wanted to say...
Seriously, probably not going to see a deathwatch chaplain, everything else there has been either directly in a codex/white dwarf, or implied by such. Just not chaplains.
Here ya go: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaplain
Oh and this: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:CodexOrganisation.jpg
Maybe the Blood Angels are oddities, but well yeah that pretty much sums it up for codex chapters. One Chaplain per company plus a Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity is the set number.
According to the Blood Angel Codex (newest edition) the Blood Angels have 13 Chaplains in active service at any given time, but they sorta have to... since they need extras for handling the Death Company. This goes, most likely, for successor chapters as well.
That said, by the arguments above, I can see one reason to make a Chaplain 'career': To fill a void in game talents. And to allow a 'priestly' role into the team. And as long as there's no fluff that states a direct 'THERE IS NO SUCH THING' I would not outrule it. But, in the end it's all just speculation
Urikanu said:
Atheosis said:
Dodskrigaren said:
Just to point out two things here (besides the obvious that no chapter is going to give up a chaplain to the deathwatch)...
1) Chaplains are not one per company like some people keep stating, like the Librarium of a chapter, the Chaplains are not parts of the companies usually, and the number of chaplains per Chapter will vary...for instance, the Blood Angels have alot (want proof, check out the new codex, they can put 6 on the board at the same time if they have the points) as do the Black Templars, but some, like the Dark Angels have very few (although with the dark angels, one supposes thats because to be a DA chaplain, you have to be a member of the inner circle of hereti...er, secret keepers, which would exclude anything resembling a prior member of the deathwatch). Sooo...yeah...which leads me to...
2) Chaplains earn their position like everyone else in a Chapter. The Reclusarch(s) particularly zealous (read ravening psycho, gotta remember, marines are pretty zealous to begin with) and train em up, test their faith, and give em their pretty skull mask after teaching them the rites they need to know. Which are going to vary by chapter.
Yeah. Just two things I wanted to say...
Seriously, probably not going to see a deathwatch chaplain, everything else there has been either directly in a codex/white dwarf, or implied by such. Just not chaplains.
Here ya go: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaplain
Oh and this: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:CodexOrganisation.jpg
Maybe the Blood Angels are oddities, but well yeah that pretty much sums it up for codex chapters. One Chaplain per company plus a Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity is the set number.
According to the Blood Angel Codex (newest edition) the Blood Angels have 13 Chaplains in active service at any given time, but they sorta have to... since they need extras for handling the Death Company. This goes, most likely, for successor chapters as well.
That said, by the arguments above, I can see one reason to make a Chaplain 'career': To fill a void in game talents. And to allow a 'priestly' role into the team. And as long as there's no fluff that states a direct 'THERE IS NO SUCH THING' I would not outrule it. But, in the end it's all just speculation
For as long as Deathwatch has been around as an idea there have never been Chaplains amongst their ranks as far as I'm aware. I don't know if they've ever actually come out and it isn't possible, but considering the divergences between all the Chapter cults I have a hard time seeing it personally. A Wolf Priest isn't going to be able to spiritually guide an Ultramarine just as an Ultramarine Chaplain isn't going to be able to spiritually guide an Iron Hand. It doesn't really work.
Atheosis said:
Urikanu said:
Atheosis said:
Dodskrigaren said:
Just to point out two things here (besides the obvious that no chapter is going to give up a chaplain to the deathwatch)...
1) Chaplains are not one per company like some people keep stating, like the Librarium of a chapter, the Chaplains are not parts of the companies usually, and the number of chaplains per Chapter will vary...for instance, the Blood Angels have alot (want proof, check out the new codex, they can put 6 on the board at the same time if they have the points) as do the Black Templars, but some, like the Dark Angels have very few (although with the dark angels, one supposes thats because to be a DA chaplain, you have to be a member of the inner circle of hereti...er, secret keepers, which would exclude anything resembling a prior member of the deathwatch). Sooo...yeah...which leads me to...
2) Chaplains earn their position like everyone else in a Chapter. The Reclusarch(s) particularly zealous (read ravening psycho, gotta remember, marines are pretty zealous to begin with) and train em up, test their faith, and give em their pretty skull mask after teaching them the rites they need to know. Which are going to vary by chapter.
Yeah. Just two things I wanted to say...
Seriously, probably not going to see a deathwatch chaplain, everything else there has been either directly in a codex/white dwarf, or implied by such. Just not chaplains.
Here ya go: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaplain
Oh and this: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:CodexOrganisation.jpg
Maybe the Blood Angels are oddities, but well yeah that pretty much sums it up for codex chapters. One Chaplain per company plus a Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity is the set number.
According to the Blood Angel Codex (newest edition) the Blood Angels have 13 Chaplains in active service at any given time, but they sorta have to... since they need extras for handling the Death Company. This goes, most likely, for successor chapters as well.
That said, by the arguments above, I can see one reason to make a Chaplain 'career': To fill a void in game talents. And to allow a 'priestly' role into the team. And as long as there's no fluff that states a direct 'THERE IS NO SUCH THING' I would not outrule it. But, in the end it's all just speculation
For as long as Deathwatch has been around as an idea there have never been Chaplains amongst their ranks as far as I'm aware. I don't know if they've ever actually come out and it isn't possible, but considering the divergences between all the Chapter cults I have a hard time seeing it personally. A Wolf Priest isn't going to be able to spiritually guide an Ultramarine just as an Ultramarine Chaplain isn't going to be able to spiritually guide an Iron Hand. It doesn't really work.
Pretty much dead on imo. The Astartes don't really have a religion per se, as the do not view the Emperor as a god, so instead they have something a bit more like a warrior cult. Chaplains are the face of that cult, but since each chapter is independant of each other, there will be divergence in the cults even between two closely related Chapters (Like say the Space Wolves and the Sons of Fenris) due to socialogical drift over time. that and I'm hoping GW didn't give FFG to add to much to the lore, and I think a DW chaplain would be a bit much.
Dodskrigaren said:
Atheosis said:
Urikanu said:
Atheosis said:
Dodskrigaren said:
Just to point out two things here (besides the obvious that no chapter is going to give up a chaplain to the deathwatch)...
1) Chaplains are not one per company like some people keep stating, like the Librarium of a chapter, the Chaplains are not parts of the companies usually, and the number of chaplains per Chapter will vary...for instance, the Blood Angels have alot (want proof, check out the new codex, they can put 6 on the board at the same time if they have the points) as do the Black Templars, but some, like the Dark Angels have very few (although with the dark angels, one supposes thats because to be a DA chaplain, you have to be a member of the inner circle of hereti...er, secret keepers, which would exclude anything resembling a prior member of the deathwatch). Sooo...yeah...which leads me to...
2) Chaplains earn their position like everyone else in a Chapter. The Reclusarch(s) particularly zealous (read ravening psycho, gotta remember, marines are pretty zealous to begin with) and train em up, test their faith, and give em their pretty skull mask after teaching them the rites they need to know. Which are going to vary by chapter.
Yeah. Just two things I wanted to say...
Seriously, probably not going to see a deathwatch chaplain, everything else there has been either directly in a codex/white dwarf, or implied by such. Just not chaplains.
Here ya go: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Chaplain
Oh and this: wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/File:CodexOrganisation.jpg
Maybe the Blood Angels are oddities, but well yeah that pretty much sums it up for codex chapters. One Chaplain per company plus a Reclusiarch and Master of Sanctity is the set number.
According to the Blood Angel Codex (newest edition) the Blood Angels have 13 Chaplains in active service at any given time, but they sorta have to... since they need extras for handling the Death Company. This goes, most likely, for successor chapters as well.
That said, by the arguments above, I can see one reason to make a Chaplain 'career': To fill a void in game talents. And to allow a 'priestly' role into the team. And as long as there's no fluff that states a direct 'THERE IS NO SUCH THING' I would not outrule it. But, in the end it's all just speculation
For as long as Deathwatch has been around as an idea there have never been Chaplains amongst their ranks as far as I'm aware. I don't know if they've ever actually come out and it isn't possible, but considering the divergences between all the Chapter cults I have a hard time seeing it personally. A Wolf Priest isn't going to be able to spiritually guide an Ultramarine just as an Ultramarine Chaplain isn't going to be able to spiritually guide an Iron Hand. It doesn't really work.
Pretty much dead on imo. The Astartes don't really have a religion per se, as the do not view the Emperor as a god, so instead they have something a bit more like a warrior cult. Chaplains are the face of that cult, but since each chapter is independant of each other, there will be divergence in the cults even between two closely related Chapters (Like say the Space Wolves and the Sons of Fenris) due to socialogical drift over time. that and I'm hoping GW didn't give FFG to add to much to the lore, and I think a DW chaplain would be a bit much.
Good to know we're in agreement, but there isn't a Chapter named the Sons of Fenris. That's just one of the appellations for the Space Wolves as far as I'm aware.
