11 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Could you unpack that for those of us who don't recognize the "corrupt the dog" reference?

Kuni Renyu was a later L5R character. He was the son of the Crab Champion who married into the Kuni and eventually became Kuni Daimyo. In story he was portrayed as being very anti-Shadowlands (he was trained as a Witch Hunter). Often in his art he was depicted as having a pet dog (Kiba) that accompanied him everywhere. There was a regular semi-joke movement among Spider players (and yes bounties were offered) at most story line events to use the prize to get the story team to corrupt the dog so it would make Renyu sad and he would cry making his Witch Hunter makeup run.

29 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Kuni Renyu was a later L5R character. He was the son of the Crab Champion who married into the Kuni and eventually became Kuni Daimyo. In story he was portrayed as being very anti-Shadowlands (he was trained as a Witch Hunter). Often in his art he was depicted as having a pet dog (Kiba) that accompanied him everywhere. There was a regular semi-joke movement among Spider players (and yes bounties were offered) at most story line events to use the prize to get the story team to corrupt the dog so it would make Renyu sad and he would cry making his Witch Hunter makeup run.

. . . okay then.

So yes you can see why some of us are relieved that FFG is toning down play results directing story.

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

So yes you can see why some of us are relieved that FFG is toning down play results directing story.

Yeah . . . I'm imagining myself in the shoes of the writer who got stuck with "the winner says they want you to corrupt the dog." If that turned out to be a powerful and humanizing moment, it's in spite of the prompt, not because of it.

C.T. Hand wrote it up, and basically showed off what he's capable of.

Mind you... it wasn't "canon," as such, 'cause I think he wrote it after the IP sale was announced but while events were still happening...

2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Yeah . . . I'm imagining myself in the shoes of the writer who got stuck with "the winner says they want you to corrupt the dog." If that turned out to be a powerful and humanizing moment, it's in spite of the prompt, not because of it.

Keep this in mind, however: it was not a tournament result, nor anything like that. It was something that was discussed among the player base (some for , and some against; as a joke first, and more seriously later for some) and one of the writers though that, indeed, it could make a powerful and moving story and lo and behold, it did! Frankly, that's to me the best kind of player input, akin to the Naga not fighting each other in one of the earliest big tournaments in the Clan Wars era and the writers deciding to incorporate that in the story because they liked it; it was not something forced on the story team that they had to make sense of. On the contrary, they could have ignored it completely, but they chose not to because they thought it was cool and made for a good story.

Renyu was pictured as fiercely anti-Shadowlands (which makes sense as a Crab, and even more as the Kuni daimyo) but he was also a spiteful jerk that antagonized everybody. Kiba, the dog, was literally the only living being that could stand him. Yes, the idea was born as a joke, but the tale humanized him, and made the readers feel for him, as it was a heartbreaking story.

That's completely different to people choosing an elephant as imperial advisor, or some kind of ninja turtle as a personality, because of the rules given for one tournament or other, when the story team is bound by the too-open "rules" they have laid for the winner to choose from.

Sadly, as Gunichi points, the canonicity of this is very much in doubt, because it must have been written right before the sale, but published right after...

It seems to me that it's canonicity is a rather moot point considering that that's Legends continuity.

I really like the concept of the Kolat as an organisation trying to bring values closer to the real world into a fictional land. The idea of a bunch of (kinda) Atheists, existing in a world of gods and their descendants, who are at war with a dark god and his legion of horrors, really works for me. Almost like they’d be the good guys if they weren’t so wrong.

Hmm. Given that the Kami are very real and there's definite proof of their existence, calling the Kolat atheists is a bit awkward... like modern day flat earthers. It would be more accurate to designate them antitheists.

Dystheists.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Dystheists.

I'd say they go full bore Misotheism.

All of the above is why I like the Kolat. I see them as the result of trying to put our societies values into a culture and world with radically different rules.

6 hours ago, JolOfNar said:

All of the above is why I like the Kolat. I see them as the result of trying to put our societies values into a culture and world with radically different rules.

Though it went from "Hey guys, we got invaded by beings from another dimension who conquered us and then forced us into their war with their sibling. They then destroyed our previous culture and forced us into this highly stratified society based on primogenitor. We need to find some way to reclaim our autonomy!" to "Hey, want to join this super duper secret society that focuses on making us rich and powerful while screwing everyone else over? I mean, we might want to kill off the Emperor at some point and put ourselves in power some day but so far just being personally rich seems to be working out pretty well."

And conversion via personality-destroying brainwashing isn't exactly sunshine and lollipops.

On 12/10/2017 at 0:38 AM, Zesu Shadaban said:

Hmm. Given that the Kami are very real and there's definite proof of their existence, calling the Kolat atheists is a bit awkward... like modern day flat earthers. It would be more accurate to designate them antitheists.

The Kolat don't deny that the gods exist. But since Rokugan lacks an all powerful creator deity it's hard to see the gods as having any special claim to the world other than might make right and they can hurl lightning bolts, bring plagues, etc. so you'd better do what they say.

16 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And conversion via personality-destroying brainwashing isn't exactly sunshine and lollipops.

You don't brainwash to convert people. You brainwash to create expendable pawns. Anyone worth converting is going to be too valuable to waste as a sleeper agent.

And creating sleeper agents doesn't destroy personalities. That would defeat the purpose of having them resume their normal lives and act as perfect undercover agents until they are triggered to carry out their missions.

Annnnnd the point keeps getting proven about what jerks they are...

When you can actually make "regular" Rokugani society look marginally less-horrible, you've done some nasty, nasty stuff...

2 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Annnnnd the point keeps getting proven about what jerks they are...

When you can actually make "regular" Rokugani society look marginally less-horrible, you've done some nasty, nasty stuff...

They were villains but they were an interesting villain and a welcome change from the newest version of Fu Leng we kept getting. Just a shame that the story team wasted the opportunity they presented.

5 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

Rokugan lacks an all powerful creator deity it's hard to see the gods as having any special claim to the world ot

There is somewhere in Fortunism the 3 old gods that predates all, but the "creator" deities are Amaterasu and Onotangu naming all stuff and all. The Hantei line is there in theory by divine right. Kolats aren't atheist, antitheist or Gnostic or else. They are an "heresy" that became a political conspiracy.

15 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

They were villains but they were an interesting villain and a welcome change from the newest version of Fu Leng we kept getting.

Eh.... I preferred stuff like Chagatai or Shosuro Jimen. No Empire-spanning conspiracy required, no mustache twirling in the philosophy club (although Jimen twirled his mustache everywhere else), just regular products of the system and values of Rokugan doing awful, awful things.

http://www.crabclan.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=9761

In case anyone wants to read the story about Kiba. Fair warning, though, it's heartbreaking.

If they include Kolat maybe they'd be more interesting as adversaries that actually believe the ideals that they were founded on instead of self-interested power brokers with a veneer of philosophy.