So everyone in the entire Empire cooperated to trick Unicorn such that there was no possible way for Unicorn to find out something that is open information all throughout Rokugan.

Quite a conspiracy.

10 minutes ago, Manchu said:

So everyone in the entire Empire cooperated to trick Unicorn such that there was no possible way for Unicorn to find out something that is open information all throughout Rokugan.

Quite a conspiracy.

Nobody loves the Unicorn. Not even the game designers.

No. The Ikoma family, well known (out-of-character) for their sneaky ways tried to trick the ignorant newbies, and almost succeeded. The empire-wide tradition is that the lower status member of a marriage takes on the family name of the higher status member of the marriage. It's just the Ikoma who do it differently

It's not a trick that would have worked on anyone else, but I bet there hasn't been an instance of a higher status woman marrying into the Ikoma family since the Unicorn got back. Why would they? Everyone knows it, but no-one talks about it. Possibly one of the Unicorn allies would have told them, but the Dragon don't get out much. There are no other allies of the Unicorn atm.

I'm trying to think of a real world equivalent, but since it's so much about ingrained culture and immigrants, I couldn't really give one without knowing where you live @Manchu . And then, if it's not where I live, I couldn't.

The Ikoma practice is still open knowledge. The Unicorn didn't just come back from the desert, or wherever. If Tadaji couldn't tell Altansarnai this then he needs to be fired immediately. If Altansarnai did not ask for Tadji's input then she needs to be fired immediately. (Remember, I did propose the possibility that the Ide want to marry her out and get new leadership.) This isn't some mundane matter where one doesn't ask questions. This is a treaty between Great Clans to avert war.

Also please keep in mind that Altansarnai does not object to marrying into Ikoma. That is Kamoko's objection. Altansarnai's objection is she wants to stay with Daiyu and their kids.

10 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Possibly one of the Unicorn allies would have told them, but the Dragon don't get out much. There are no other allies of the Unicorn atm.

There are. The Crane is the biggest political ally of the Unicorn (as you can see in the initial fiction), so much that in fact they were the ones that got the actual lands that are now the Unicorn territories.

22 minutes ago, Manchu said:

First, divorce is a legal in Rokugan. It is not considered breaking one's word.

Second, there is no evidence that Anakazu and Akari were married as part of a treaty agreement between Lion and Phoenix negotiated by the two as Great Clans. It is more likely to be a run-of-the-mill political marriage (like Toturi's) agreed upon when the spouses were still children. By contrast, the only reason for Anakazu and Altansarnai to wed is to end hostilities between Lion and Unicorn.

You are exactly right to emphasize, as Altansarnai did, that it is the Lion Clan Champion's right to order his vassal to set aside his wife. Altansarnai has no similar right to break the treaty with Lion.

You realize that all political marriages are an arrangement of some sort. There would have been some sort of concession negotiated for both sides to even consider it, and yes sometimes that's as simple as we want our two families to have a closer connection. By divorcing her, which yes is legal in Rokugan and I said as much in my first response where I noted it is within his Champions powers to require him to do so, it still potentially brings dishonor for them breaking the existing agreement that resulted in the first marriage that is now being set aside. It was strong enough that Akari felt the need to commit suicide to protest the marriage.

It was purely a political move on the Lion to show their superiority to the Unicorn, luring out the interest with a sufficiently high ranking clan member that the Unicorn would have to consider the advantages of the union, and the Daimyo of a family is definitely high enough, along with their obscure knowledge that Ikoma men do not marry into another family, the other family marries into them. Should the Unicorn have been able to find that knowledge, yes probably, but would they know to look it up in the first place is the question.

And actually it is well within Altansarnai's rights to cancel the the betrothal, she is a clan champion she technically answers to no one but the Emperor and his direct representatives who had nothing to do with the marriage negotiations, but as she is quick to point out in Curved Blades she was reluctant to do so due to the reaction it would lead to from the Lion and the "shame" that would be perceived on her for breaking the agreement.

Akari was hellbent on jigai because of her love for Anakazu, not because of any dishonor to Asako.

To the extend that Ikoma and Asako agreed that there would be a marriage, both sides honored that agreement. There was a marriage. That is - again - another significant difference between that situation and Altansarnai's dishonorable welching.

And again, it was Unicorn's responsibility to understand what they were agreeing to. If they failed then they failed. Just more Unicorn dishonor.

Altansarnai has no right to violate bushido. That is exactly why, as she herself concedes, she dishonored herself and her clan.

The fiction seems to imply that if the Unicorn-Lion treaty had specified that the Ikoma daimyo would marry into the Unicorn there would have been no issue. One can assume the Unicorn, reasonably, assumed the practice of the lower status spouse marrying into the Family of the higher status spouse would be applied.

However, once the treaty was signed the Lion began insisting that among the Ikoma tradition said the wife marries into the Family of the husband. Regardless of whether or not that's an actual custom among the Lion it seems rather obvious that the Lion were just looking for an excuse to war with the Unicorn without looking like the aggressors.

I think you all are looking at this from the wrong way. You’re discussing who’s the bad guy and who’s the good guy, while the truth is that both of them are both things.

Manchu is right in saying that from the Lion’s perspective, the Unicorn is the bad guy here. Because Lion treasures Honor over all other virtues of Bushido, and see Compassion as the less significant one. Altansarnai was bound by her word, and failing to keep it, she failed her honor. Doesn’t matter that if Asako Akari had committed jigai, Altansarnai would have been dishonored nonetheless, as Altansarnai herself points out in Curved Blades. The right thing to do from Lion’s perspective was to marry and then try to atone for Akari’s jigai, maybe even with seppuku.

But Ishi Tonu is also right that from the Unicorn’s perspective, the Lion is the bad guy. They value Compassion over the rest of virtues of Bushido (coincidentally, the virtue the Lion care less about), and the agreement with the Lion is forcing them to set aside their clan values in exchange for fitting better in Rokugan. But that’s not who the Unicorn is. Let’s not forget that Lady Shinjo was the only one of the Kami that tried to reason with Fu Leng, to use words instead of steel to try to get back their long lost brother. For such is the nature of the Unicorn, as Altansarnai also states in the fiction, all life is worth and precious. So much that seppuku was unheard of until they returned to Rokugan. As Kamoko states, Rokugan clings to outdated customs that destroys lives, and from Altansarnai POV they’re not here just “to fit”, but to incorporate all the good things they brought from their exodus to Rokugan, to make it a better place. Kamoko even calls Ikoma Anakazu a “coward” for setting his wife aside, for not caring for her life (they also state that divorce inevitably dishonored one party or the other, in this case the Asako). She puts Compassion over Duty.

Thing is, nobody in Rokugan is the bad guy * , they just try to do what’s best for their clan and for the Emperor from their own perspective of Bushido. But Bushido is impossible (at least for a mortal) to obey in its entirety, and you always have to prioritize some of its tenets and disregard others. That’s the base of the Samurai drama.

* Except for Kakita Yoshi. That guy is just bad to the bone.

2 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

* Except for Kakita Yoshi. That guy is just bad to the bone.

Yoshi is actually George Thorogood?

4 hours ago, Swordbreaker said:

Yoshi is actually George Thorogood?

I actually remember the Crane's Clan entry at Oriental Adventures, listing Kakita Yoshi's alignment as lawful evil.
After reading the stories, I totally agree that his attitude portrays just that.

On 12/9/2017 at 10:27 AM, Tabris2k said:

She puts Compassion over Duty.

I think it's more that she puts Compassion, Duty to lead the Clan, and possibly Righteousness to not be deceived over Honor to adhere to the agreement.

I also think is less about establishing who's objectively right and wrong and more about politicking to ensure whatever side you're on is seen to have the moral high ground.