Yes I for sure do assume Lion dealt in good faith.

<<<< see mon

If Lion had cheated Unicorn, Altansarnai would surely have thought about it and/or Kamoko would have said it outright when they talked it over. Accusing Lion of dishonor on this account seems like malicious speculation. Meanwhile, Unicorn definitely, unarguably reneged on their word - this is clearly dishonorable behavior and only reinforces the Unicorn's barbaric reputation as well as angering Lion.

For Lion, the correct choice is what bushido demands. And in this instance, Unicorn has no ground to deny Lion recompense for Unicorn's dishonorable behavior. Even among barbarians, one can find some shame. Hence Shono's reaction to his mother's selfish whimsy.

Unicorn must now place its hope in Toturi's merciful nature.

I don't think the Lion cheated the Unicorn, but I definitely feel that the Ikoma carefully didn't mention all of the implications of the deal until shortly before the marriage and after the agreement had been reached.

Seems like it is up to Ide - not Ikoma - to figure out what the deal is before Unicorn accepts. The upshot seemed to be that Altansarnai didn't want to go through with it, so didn't. That's why even her own son is ashamed.

I suspect that LPB strong-armed whatever independent delegate was sent to assist in explaining the arrangement to the Unicorn, to make sure they had as little information as possible and so the Lion could negotiate from a position of power.

Unicorn didn't know the game was rigged.

That comes back to my issue with the Unicorn debut fiction, because it really stretches credulity to say that in the literal centuries the Unicorn have allegedly been back, that they didn't have a single Ikoma marriage to base their template on- and even if that is so, that they wouldn't do some rigorous homework on any marriage involving their Clan Champion.

But yes, I do think the Ikoma were trying to pull something. The Ikoma we've seen thus far are slimy, manipulative gits, like good courtiers should be.

5 hours ago, Manchu said:

Yes I for sure do assume Lion dealt in good faith.

<<<< see mon

So I suppose you're just going to overlook the fact that Lion failed to disclose that their daimyo was already married?

I won't fault the Lion for trying to marry off someone of lesser status but straight up lying about the fact that the rain to was already married doesn't seem to be on the level too me.

16 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

That comes back to my issue with the Unicorn debut fiction, because it really stretches credulity to say that in the literal centuries the Unicorn have allegedly been back, that they didn't have a single Ikoma marriage to base their template on- and even if that is so, that they wouldn't do some rigorous homework on any marriage involving their Clan Champion.

But yes, I do think the Ikoma were trying to pull something. The Ikoma we've seen thus far are slimy, manipulative gits, like good courtiers should be.

That's what I first thought, but, they may have just found that they were better off keeping to themselves upon their return. Now that they are trying to intergrate into the empire, they likely turned to outside help to arrange the marriage.....

Hold up, where is the evidence that Lion failed to disclose Ikoma Anakazu's previous marriage?

Altansarnai is "surprised" by Akari's tale. This comes immediately after Akari explains that she wants to commit jigai because Anakazu will be faithful to Altansarnai. It seems to me that Altansarnai had not been told of Akari's suicidal devotion. This interpretation is supported by the fact that immediately before Altansarnai registers surprise, she suggests Ikari continue a romantic affair with Anakazu after he and Altansarnai wed. It is further strengthened by Kamoko's objection that the deal will require Akari be "put aside" in the context of her intent to commit jigai

But even if Altansarnai did not know Anakazu would need to divorce before wedding her, she has no objection to that: "If the Lion have chosen to end Anakazu's marriage, then that is their Champion's choice."

Kamoko acknowledges that Altansarnai is bound by her word and Altansarnai even says if she reneges it will bring great dishonor on Unicorn. Kamoko's objection that Unicorn did not know about the custom of a wife joining the husband's family is laughable. What kind of bumbling morons are Unicorn diplomats if they could not be bothered to investigate the terms of the treaty? Perhaps Ide kept their Champion in the dark, weighing peace with Lion as worth more than her leadship. Whatever the cause, incompetency or lack of devotion, this is just another source of Unicorn dishonor.

Kamoko may be angry and proud but she's no legal scholar or expert on bushido. The writing is on the wall: Unicorn is gravely dishonored by Altansarnai's bad faith. Since the deal was marriage and horse dowry in exchange for Lion giving up any claim to southern Ki-rin lands, Lion is fully justified to reassert those claims and further strengthen them as recompense for Unicorn's dishonorable behavior.

That's all well and good but coming from someone who is speculating without all the facts, and a heavy Lion bias, I remain unconvinced the Lion are in the right.

I don't believe the Unicorn are bumbling morons which leads me to believe that they were deceived. Whether it was by the Lion or someone else I highly doubt that Unicorn jumped straight to "let's marry off our champ and see what we can get" then assumed they were being given a good deal. Of course they checked into it, but, the best consipiracies aren't exactly easy to uncover, and even more difficult to investigate when you're an outsider without access.

We've read other stories of Ikoma being underhanded and then there is LPB showing us how the Lion "negotiate". I see no reason to believe that, in a place like Rokugan, the Lion and any number of the other clans didn't conspire against the "barbarian outsiders" when they found out the Unicorn were going to do something to try and intergrate themselves back into society. Or it could just be Imperial shenanigans that led to this.

Anything is possible, but, given what we've seen so far, I find it doubtful that Lion we're not complicit in the deception.

Good faith is not an important concept in Rokugan. Honor is. It is likely the Lion hid certain facts from the negotiation, but it is just as likely Unicorns did the same. Once the deal was struck, it is now a matter of honor to respect it, regardless of the facts you discover after you signed. I think the Ikoma did it on purpose as a secret test of character. If the Unicorn Champion went with the marriage anyway, it would have shown the Unicorn respected honor above all and were worthy of respect as allies. If not, then they are no better than barbarians.

That's how the Lion think. You might disagree with that line of thought, but if you call foul, you call foul on their entire concept of honor.

In the old storyline, The unicorn and the lion were at war after the Unicorn attempted to seize the throne by force and killed a revered Lion General in the process. The Lion Champion himself dueled the Unicorn Champion over the fact and died in the process. Moto Chagatai realized the Lion would never stop, since attacking the throne was the greatest insult to their honor possible, and decided to commit seppuku as penance and as a peace offering to the Lion. Baffled by the incredibly honorable gesture, the Lion ceased all hostilities immediatly. If Altarnasai would do the same, let me tell you the next thing the Lion would do is offer a formal alliance, give back the land and open them with open arms. They respect this, they abhor oathbreakers. In that sense, the Unicorns, and their Champion specifically is the self-centered one, looking out for her own desires rather than the well-being of the Clan as a whole. Like Shono implied, even with her gone, they would still have a Champion AND an ally.

You have to remember that for the rest of Rokugan, the Unicorn are the outsiders. No matter how justified their actions are according to their own set of morals and ethics, Rokugani expect them to conform, or else be branded as gaijin.

Which is why I've always rooted for Fu Leng. Rokugan will be better off when it is burnt to the ground.

39 minutes ago, Tetsuhiko said:

You might disagree with that line of thought, but if you call foul, you call foul on their entire concept of honor.

I always have, which is why I follow Fu Leng and will see Rokugan burn..........or if things keep going the way they are, trampled under the hooves of the pONI.

2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I don't believe the Unicorn are bumbling morons which leads me to believe that they were deceived.

Your premise doesn't support your conclusion. You'd have to assume that the only way Ide could know is if someone (Lion, Scorpion, Otomo, whoever) affirmatively told them. Ide either knew and wanted to marry out their Champion or didn't know. Maybe they were deceived but in that case why not independently verify information? Any way you slice it, this is a matter of Unicorn responsibility. By the way we aren't talking about some kind of secret conspiracy. The marriage customs of Rokugan are open information.

I won't argue that Ikoma diplomats have been portrayed as presumptuous and aggressive but I'm going to need evidence to support the claim that they have acted dishonorably.

Unicorn has unquestionably acted dishonorably, as vocally admitted by Altansarnai.

4 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Which is why I've always rooted for Fu Leng. Rokugan will be better off when it is burnt to the ground.

I always have, which is why I follow Fu Leng and will see Rokugan burn..........or if things keep going the way they are, trampled under the hooves of the pONI.

Because the dangers of a xenophobic, elitocratic perfectionist society are so much worse than the rule of a mad bloothirsty nihilistic god...

1 minute ago, Tetsuhiko said:

Because the dangers of a xenophobic, elitocratic perfectionist society are so much worse than the rule of a mad bloothirsty nihilistic god...

It would appear so

35 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Your premise doesn't support your conclusion. You'd have to assume that the only way Ide could know is if someone (Lion, Scorpion, Otomo, whoever) affirmatively told them. Ide either knew and wanted to marry out their Champion or didn't know. Maybe they were deceived but in that case why not independently verify information? Any way you slice it, this is a matter of Unicorn responsibility. By the way we aren't talking about some kind of secret conspiracy. The marriage customs of Rokugan are open information.

I won't argue that Ikoma diplomats have been portrayed as presumptuous and aggressive but I'm going to need evidence to support the claim that they have acted dishonorably.

Unicorn has unquestionably acted dishonorably, as vocally admitted by Altansarnai.

There are plenty of ways the deal could have come about, because we have no backstory on it. It's all speculation...........yours just has a heavy Lion bias, with nothing else to support it. Clearly the marriage customs are not open information, or that information was withheld, misinterpreted, or purposely misconstrued. After being back or 200 years the Unicorn should know something about how Rokugani marriages work. To assume they didn't try to fact check is a bit presumptuous on your part. What they know, what they found out, who helped them............none of that is known. Maybe there is a bigger conspiracy going on. Lion marry Phoenix.........Phoenix don't like Unicorn magic.........what does it mean? Gasp! Nobody fricken knows anything other than there was a deal in place, Unicorn realized the full ramifications only after the deal was agreed upon, so they backed out and their will be consequences. To presume who is right in this is speculation. I'm completely aware of that, but, you seem to think there is some evidence that proves the Lion are in the right.

Even if they are, it's pretty clear the Unicorn's stance is starting to move towards "whatcha gonna do about it?" And I agree. The game is rigged and to the Unicorn it may very well take another 200 years before they are no longer treated as outsiders........or maybe the never will get equal treatment. They are a great clan and deserving of the same respect any of the other clans would get but they still are not treated that way, after being back for 200 years. The Unicorn have made the attempt to re-integrate themselves into Rokugani culture, but, instead of welcoming them as another asset to the empire, everyone looks to "take advantage of the barbarian" because they can hide behind BS Rokugani Honor. "If you're honorable you would just bend over and take it. If you don't you prove you're a filthy barbarian" Screw that. Unicorn, got duped and appear to be willing to make reparations. If the Lion go too far, then they can just go ahead and fight a two front war.

I'm sure Toturi will do what it right, not what is "right by rule of honor." He seems to be the least "Lion" of them all............or maybe he is the most "Lion" and the rest of the clan is has lost their way during this period of moral decline in Rokugan.

Marriage customs are inherently open information because marriage is a public institution.

I don't assume Unicorn did not fact check - that is just one possibility. They may also have known and withheld the information from Altansarnai and any Unicorn who might be opposed ( e.g. , Kamoko).

The larger point - which you are pointedly ignoring - is that it is Unicorn's responsibility to understand a treaty before accepting it. "I failed in my responsibility" is not a valid argument for bringing dishonor on yourself and your clan by breaking your word. This is just heaping dishonor upon dishonor.

There is no presumption of who is right. By the standards of bushido, Altansarnai unequivocally dishonored herself and her clan. Again, you keep ignoring that she admits as much herself before rationalizing it away so she can pursue her own preferences. And if that was too subtle for you, we have Shono reiterating that she acted dishonorably.

Unicorn has no right to complain about being treated like barbarians if they refuse to live up to being samurai.

For Toturi, like Akodo before him, and for everyone who follows bushido, there is no difference between what is right and what is honorable. A gaijin like Kamoko would't understand that.

The marriage treaty reveals the Lion's contempt for the Unicorn.

I think @Tetsuhiko makes a stronger case.

1 hour ago, Tetsuhiko said:

Because the dangers of a xenophobic, elitocratic perfectionist society are so much worse than the rule of a mad bloothirsty nihilistic god...

Hey he's all about inclusion. You can all be equally tainted by my sweet embrace and when you die you get t o keep serving me as a walking dead puppet until I grow board of you.

30 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

Hey he's all about inclusion. You can all be equally tainted by my sweet embrace and when you die you get t o keep serving me as a walking dead puppet until I grow board of you.

Where do I sign?

If the Ikoma were testing the Unicorn's willingness to respect an agreement, and broke an agreement they've already established to do so, they might have to reevaluate some things.

I don't agree that a universal acceptance of what is honorable quite works in context. A disconnect between the standards of the Unicorn and the Lion; even in modern countries (using the US as an example) culture and socially acceptable behavior varies considerably between geographic sections and states, all despite the relative ease of travel and relocating ones' self between them. 'Common knowledge' and 'standards' in one area may not be so common somewhere else, despite what we might think.

If the bulk of one Clan spends most of their time within their own lands, dealing with their own clansmen, then the 'common knowledge' is going to be what the clan values first and foremost; everybody else's idea is secondary (and inferior). This shines through in Flying Chariot, Standing : Tadaji, more familiar with Imperial customs and exposed to the peculiarities of the other clans and Imperial families, seems somewhat daunted with his Champion's decision. Or in A Difference of Lanterns , where Taka expresses irritation at the pomp and circumstance, and he deals with the Imperials more than Kisada does.

The issue might clear up a bit if we got the Lion perspective of the Unicorn/Lion kerfuffle. Toturi, at the least, seems irritated that Tsuko authorized an attack on Unicorn lands.

What agreement did Lion break?

This isn't a cultural relativism issue. Altansarnai knows and even says that she knows that breaking the agreement will dishonor Unicorn.

Toturi is irritated because it is his right to make such decisions and because that right has been in question ever since it became his.

Just now, Manchu said:

What agreement did Lion break?

This isn't a cultural relativism issue. Altansarnai knows and even says that she knows that breaking the agreement will dishonor Unicorn.

Toturi is irritated because it is his right to make such decisions and because that right has been in question ever since it became his.

The marriage arrangement between Ikoma Anakazu and Asako that resulted in Akari marrying him. While it is within the rights of his Champion to require him to put his current wife aside to marry for the forging of a new alliance with the Unicorn, it is still a breaking of the other agreement.

First, divorce is a legal in Rokugan. It is not considered breaking one's word.

Second, there is no evidence that Anakazu and Akari were married as part of a treaty agreement between Lion and Phoenix negotiated by the two as Great Clans. It is more likely to be a run-of-the-mill political marriage (like Toturi's) agreed upon when the spouses were still children. By contrast, the only reason for Anakazu and Altansarnai to wed is to end hostilities between Lion and Unicorn.

You are exactly right to emphasize, as Altansarnai did, that it is the Lion Clan Champion's right to order his vassal to set aside his wife. Altansarnai has no similar right to break the treaty with Lion.

Lion: It is customary to eat this delectible pastry as a sign of your loyalty to the emperor.

Unicorn: This is foreign to me as an outsider let me check it out.

Asks the Scorpion who winks at the Lion before answering......oh yes that's a real custom.

Asks the Crane with a black eye that just got beat up by LPB .......oh yes Lion are correct to ask you for this, as the Crane looks to LPB who runs her finger across her neck.

Asks the Otomo.....who chuckles because they want the clans to ignore the man behind the curtain...yes you must do this.

Unicorn agrees to deal: Kamoko rushes in: Stop that pastry is full of crap. But if I don't eat it I'll be dishonored....

No thanks I'll pass on the pastry

"Filthy Barbarian" you dishonor yourself by not eating our crap. We demand compensation.

What a joke. Where's Chagatai when you need him?