Nice.

Wasn't really looking for painting advice, but thanks!

With the new codex coming out soon, there may be Blood Red paint in my future. They look like a suitably broken chapter. Our store already has a preview copy and boy, they have some ridiculously cool stuff.

LeBlanc13: You might also want to try checking out the paints available from Privateer Press. They have coverage abilities between those of the standard Citadel paints and the Foundation paints... They also mix with both with no problem.

Yes, I'm the kind of heretic that freely uses paints from multiple ranges and companies on my minis.

I'm hoping they detail all the rest of the First-Founding Chapters relatively soon after the main book comes out.

I'm also a big fan of Vallejo. They're a bit thin though, so it requires a different technique.

Atheosis said:

Well they announced the first Chapter and it's...the Space Wolves...

While I know many will be happy with the news, I'm kind of disgusted at the predictability of it all. Well at least the Wolves are from the Segmentum Obscurus...maybe there's still hope they won't just shoehorn in every fanboy Chapter regardless if it makes any real sense...

Yeah right...

Atheosis said:

Well, that's just the thing with the Deathwatch, its members can visit regions of Imperial space (and enemy space of course) far from their Homeworld / Home Segmentum (?) while working with the Deathwatch. So really, any chapter that does supply marines to the Deathwatch 'makes sense' to be in the Jacobus Reach (is that the name?).

Just like the Grey Knights, they're based on Saturn's moon Titan (or was it Jupiter's?), but individual squads can be found all over the galaxy.

I figured Space Wolves would be chosen (and it was hinted at wasn't it?), and actually think playing one would be fun. Until I see what other chapters become available, they're my pick as first character (unless there's Raven Guard, then they win over Space Wolves).

I heard Black Templars do not work with psykers of any kind. It doesn't matter if it is a Ultramarine Codex Chapter "role model" Librarian, a Dark Angel Librarian, a Primaris Psyker from the Guard... they only work with Grey Knight psykers. That could make things interesting if Templars are one of the chapters.

We could always get more chapters by using sucessor chapters too. Same basic traits, mutations and whatnot, but different back story.

Kerrahn said:

1) The Deathwatch actually recruits regionally as needed (ie for specific missions/campaigns). So, while not impossible, it isn't very likely that you would encounter a Blood Angel or Ultramarine in the Deathwatch in the Segmentum Obscurus. If a xenos threat needs the intervention of the Deathwatch, they will either deploy a currently available kill-team, or petition any nearby Chapters that have sworn to second Marines when needed. They aren't going to petition a Chapter on the far side of the galaxy. Long distance space travel in 40k is just too slow and hazardous for something like that to make any sense.

2) The Deathwatch is not based on Titan (Jupiter's largest moon). They actually don't have a central headquarters. That said, most of their strongholds are on the fringes of the Imperium from whence the threat of xenos attack is greatest.

Danger said:

Yep. That's the main reason that I have a hard time seeing Black Templars in the Deathwatch, but their is official lore that supports the idea (though it's by C.S. Goto so it should probably be ignored).

Atheosis said:

I believe the poster was saying that while Deathwatch probably has a central base somewhere, they are stationed at outposts all over the Empire.

Just to correct myself...Titan is Saturn's largest moon...I always flip that around...

A number of the core chapters have spread throughout the galaxy. Space Wolf Great Companies often leave Fenris never to return. When this happens a new great company is raised to replace them. So you can find SWs all over the galaxy.

This is very handy in the TT, as it allows you to have SWs fighting 'nids and Tau on the Eastern Fringe, for example.

DAs can be found across the galaxy, hunting down the Forsaken.

BTs would be a good choice, as they are numerous (for SMs) and found all over the place.

Not sure about the rest.

macd21 said:

Ultramarines and Blood Angels are both in the Ultima Segmentum so not so much. Space Wolves are the only big name Chapter actually based in the right Segmentum (assuming they keep the setting near DH and RT). Dark Angels and Black Templars aren't too big a stretch either, at least location wise. All the same, neither Chapter seems like particularly prime Deathwatch material to me. Dark Angels don't really work well with others, and Black Templars can't abide psykers. Yet I have a feeling both will get crammed in anyway.

Atheosis said:

They've already mentioned the fact that the Deathwatch needs to work together despite their differences. So I'd imagine the fact that some of the Chapters not playing well together is intentional.

Space Wolves are in, along with the Dark Angels chapter and the Blood Angels...great. I liked the background of all three in their respective codex, not to mention the scope for rivalry between both a Dark Angel and Space Wolf operating within the same DW team.

Had a look at the image of the core rulebook again and it could be possible that the Black Templars are in, after making out some of the writing under 'Getting Started' sub-heading. Would've thought they'd have their hands full with the crusade they are in the process of, fluff-wise, though I suppose it wouldn't be out of the question for one or two of the Templar-Brothers to become seconded to DW. Though I wonder how their presence would cause problems for the team considering some of their practices seem to overlap with the Ordo Hereticus/Adepta Sororitas, which according to the GW website in the past led to some incidents between the chapter and ordo.

Also, if the Hammers of Retribution chapter from PtU is added to the core rules what are the chances of a fortress-monastery of the said chapter being located not far from Jericho's Reach?

Atheosis said:

They're Space Marines. There are aprox only 1 million of these guys in the entire galaxy. The Deathwatch can't turn away candidates because they have "doesn't work well with others" on their permanent records. Not to mention the fact that when you get down to it, most chapters have issues. If you turn away the DAs 'cause of their surly disposition you're probably not going to be too happy with the guys who eat human flesh as part of their standard diet, or the guys who tend to consider hive cities acceptable collateral damage for taking out a small band of cultists, or the guys who have way more psykers in their genepool than they probably should, or the guys who think all Inquisitors should be shot on sight, or.... you get my point. Start forcing candidates to fill out application forms for admission and pretty soon all you'll have is a few smurfs and imperial fists.

macd21 said:

The point being that I have a hard time seeing the Dark Angels volunteering to second Marines in the first place.

Not to rock the boat, but in support of Dark Angels, I have to say that only the top echelons of the chapter even know about the situation with the Fallen. The rest are just normal Marines. Admittedly the Chapter has a certain inclination towards secrecy, but I don't see why that would exclude them any more than other Chapters with similar issues.

A Blood Angel succumbing to the Black Rage whilst on Deathwatch duty would be a lot more compromising, not to mention the more present struggle with the Red Thirst. I expect there'll be something in the rules to reflect the possibility, in fact.

I think such backstories and challenges will be what really gives you the inherent interest in the roleplay side of Deathwatch as opposed to playing something that could otherwise end up being a Killteam game of 40k.

Atheosis said:

I can think of plenty of reasons why they would. Simple ones: having marines in the DW is an honour. It fosters good relations with the Inquisition. More interesting ones: it gives the DA eyes in the DW. Great intelligence gathering asset - you can spy on your fellow marines, the Inquisition and have an agent abroad in the galaxy picking up any hints at forsaken activity.

Another possibility for a good DW chapter would be the Imperial Fists, who have forces scattered across the Imperium.

macd21 said:

It could happen. As it is it's unclear if the Dark Angels second to Deathwatch or not. I would tend to think they wouldn't.

Anyway, the point of all of this is that it feels forced if they use all the big name Chapters in the main book. Certainly each inclusion can be rationalized, but in the end it just feels like a cop out. Of course giving players a whopping six Chapters to play, whatever Chapters they might be, feels like a cop out too.

Niqvah said:

I wasn't referring to the hunt for the Fallen. I'm keenly aware that only Deathwing knows about that (it's one of my pet peeves that so many people create DA successors and don't seem to know that). I was referring to the DAs insular nature which leads them to work independently of the rest of the Imperium.

That said, I'm not specifically against the Dark Angels being included so much as against having every fanboy Chapter shoehorned into the game for no real reason other than their popularity.

Atheosis said:

Conversely, I suppose, the hunt for the Fallen could prove a compelling reason to allow members of the Chapter to enter the Deathwatch! It could be an excellent way to gather information whilst remaining above suspicion. But I have to say, I get fed up with every story involving the Dark Angels playing up the Fallen angle. Seems like lazy storytelling to me, and it does them a disservice.

I understand your views on the inclusion of key Chapters, but on the other hand, it would be a shame not to include popular ones as that would be disappointing to the fans. Personally, I don't see a problem with the main rulebook focusing on these. It's not saying the Deathwatch is solely populated by big-name Chapters, just that, perhaps, the group this narrative focuses on happen to consist of some well-known ones. Make-your-own and future expansions will no doubt broaden the range of options, too.

Remember that the chapter doesn't really need to be "local", once seconded to the DW the inquisition can send the kill team pretty much where they want to and if the team is following an investigation or an inquisitor then it might end up a long long way from home.

I suspect that if the chapter has a codex, it will be one of the core chapters in Deathwatch.

Niqvah said:

My issue, I suppose, isn't so much with including the popular Chapters. It's that they are initially offering such a limited pool that they either cram all the popular Chapters in (which from a marketing perspective is the only smart thing to do) or they don't, thereby alienating the people who want to play a Marine from their favorite big name Chapter. What really irritates me is that they could easily include Chapter creation rules in the core book (half a dozen pages would be enough I would imagine), but are deciding not to so they can put it in a supplement they can sell later. So being a GM I have to write up my own rules and create Chapters on my own to create a believable scenario where every member of the kill team isn't from a Chapter of Legend. You see my issue with this?

The Chapters that have their own Codex are the ones that have unique organizational structures and the most fluff to work with so far. Most of the others are some flavor of Codex (read Ultramarine) Chapter perhaps with a slight twist (more psykers, more bikers, more flamers/meltas, etc.), but not all that different from any other Codex Chapter or a successor chapter of one of the other iconics. As others have said, by including the "big name" chapters, you can also play a Marine from any of their successor chapters. It's just a different paint job on the shoulder pad. This gives you a lot of variety for picking a background out of the book and playing right away. Rules for creating your own chapter(s) to allow you to create PCs with unique attributes that are properly balanced is much harder I would imagine. You don't want to duplicate the schtick of the other included chapters or just provide a list of mix and match abilities so that you'd end up with a Space Wolf-like marine that has a Black Rage-like ability/flaw. Again, giving us truly new abilities to work with without redressing the existing iconics is probably harder than a lot of people without game design experience might think and definitely harder than just "pick a design for your chapter's shoulder pad."

Not everyone coming to the RPG will have the extensive background knowledge of 40k and the iconic Chapters either. It makes sense that for the core book they would say pick a class and chapter, so players could get to playing faster. After the game has been out for awhile, a supplement that introduces build your own (with hopefully more than a dozen pages of rules to do so), will satisfy hardcore 40k fans without overwhelming new players that including those rules in the core might have. On the other hand, if they left the iconics out, you'd have some subset of fans that would be looking for house rules to allow them to play a Space Wolf, Blood Angel, or whatever if not just flat out refusing to buy the game out of nerd rage.

Fact of the matter is, they'd never be able to stuff everything in the core book to satisfy everyone, and yes, they probably don't want to. A larger core would have to be more expensive (these games are already more expensive than a lot of other RPGs), possibly hurting sales. Also, it shouldn't be surprising that they want to be able to sell us additional supplements. In the grand scheme of things, I think they made the right decision.

I see your potential issue, but think it can be mitigated by playing a marine from a successor chapter. If you don't feel you can enjoy the game playing as an iconic or successor and absolutely have to have the ability to create your own unique chapter, you'll have to wait for the supplement or not play.