5 hours ago, Himoto said:

Twice false. We won the first and second tournaments (Gateway 1996 and a 2000 Global Storyline Tournament) for Emerald Champion, resulting in Toshimoko and Hachi.

Given my general distaste for all things Crane, I clearly didn't pay enough attention. I'll simply admit the error and move on. Maybe it was Topaz champs I was thinking of. Either way. My initial statement was incorrect.

27 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Isn't that exactly Toturi's story? His brother took up reign as the next champion of the clan while Toturi was sent as an exchange student with the Crane. This is why Hotaru and Toturi were so close when she gruesomely murdered his brother, allowing him to assume the mantle as supreme leader uncontested.

"Gruesomely murdered"

I can't even tell anymore when people are joking, or just plain crazy.

It's true that Toturi and Hotaru are friends of old. It is not clear when or how they met. Ujiaki calls the "childhood friends." Toturi may have attended the Akodo Commander School. He recognizes Tsukune from her time as a student there. But there is no mention of Hotaru attending.

2 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

"Gruesomely murdered"

I can't even tell anymore when people are joking, or just plain crazy.

I'm totally joking tho, promise I'm not crazy

7 hours ago, Mon no Oni said:

While some details may be off, the original history at this point was... Satsume is still the EC, then the SCC happens. He is badly hurt, but he lingers on and dies some time later, poisoned in his bed. Because of all the problems right after the coup no new EC is appointed for years, with only senior Magistrate acting as a de facto EC all but in name. Then the CW starts and a Tournament to finally appoint a new EC is held, and Toshimoko is the winner.

This iteration of the tale has Satsume die earlier, and Toturi taking the mantle. This could be a way to make Toturi's fall from grace more logical. After all, in the original version, he (and the whole Akodo family with him!) took the fall because he wasn't here to defend the Emperor for some reason or other... like all other Champions, duh! Now, if he is the EC when the Hantei is assassinated, the whole thing makes a little more sense. So, in all, this seems just a better set up for the same aproximate outcome.

Well, the point was that the Lion clan are the Emperor's Right Hand, the protector of the Empire and Emperor against military attack. During the coup, they failed, completely . Normally, this would expect to lead to the Champion's dishonour and whatever followed on. In addition, Toturi was caught seated in the throne, declaring himself emperor when the young Sotorii who had been hidden and not killed (again) walked in with his Phoenix protectors and the Seppun. Hantei XXXIX was also just a little spiteful (and maybe tainted??) and declared the entire family disbanded. That is a bit extreme , but he's the Emperor so what are you going to do - depose him?

7 hours ago, Mon no Oni said:

Stupid double posting

25 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

Well, the point was that the Lion clan are the Emperor's Right Hand, the protector of the Empire and Emperor against military attack. During the coup, they failed, completely . Normally, this would expect to lead to the Champion's dishonour and whatever followed on. In addition, Toturi was caught seated in the throne, declaring himself emperor when the young Sotorii who had been hidden and not killed (again) walked in with his Phoenix protectors and the Seppun. Hantei XXXIX was also just a little spiteful (and maybe tainted??) and declared the entire family disbanded. That is a bit extreme , but he's the Emperor so what are you going to do - depose him?

The Coup was not a military attack, was an inside job. For that, you have the Master of Secrets, the Seppun or... the Emerald Champion. In any case, lots of blame to go around, and a rather weak justification.

I'm not sure if the bit about Toturi declaring himself Emperor was devised after the fact precisely to further justify the outcome, but IMO it doesn't make too much sense. I simply cannot picture a character that has been presented as a smart one, in a setting like Rokugan, thinking that would be nothing like a good idea...

Let's remember, the original Rokugan as much as we may love it, was being made up on the go. Some things didn't make much sense upon close examination (mainly in Wick's era) , and later authors had to take a hard look and make sense of it. IMO this is one case.

On the other hand FFG has the benefit of hindsight, so it seems to me they are building a stronger case against Toturi this time around.

In regard to Toturi declaring himself Emperor following the Coup, as far as he knew the Imperial bloodline had been wiped out which would inevitably lead to a civil was as the Clans fought over the throne. By doing what he did Toturi hoped to stop that needless strife before it began. It's the same reasoning Shoju used when he decided he'd need to become Emperor when he was planning the Coup.

I liked the tale, but two things are on my mind:

1) Toturi insulting his rival in the final duel of the EC contest...?

and 2) It is a pity they did not use the EC for a great and multi-enjoyable story prize... I imagine there are reasons for this but I feel like they could have done something much bigger, like several tales for each participant, and the winner of a Grand Kotei giving the title and the EC to his clan...

3 hours ago, Koriume said:

I liked the tale, but two things are on my mind:

1) Toturi insulting his rival in the final duel of the EC contest...?

and 2) It is a pity they did not use the EC for a great and multi-enjoyable story prize... I imagine there are reasons for this but I feel like they could have done something much bigger, like several tales for each participant, and the winner of a Grand Kotei giving the title and the EC to his clan...

They have already explained that the story team will have a much tighter grip on the storyline this time, with the players being able to influence the general direction of the story as with Justice/Duty but not super specific decisions will be left to the players.

1 hour ago, blackheartz said:

They have already explained that the story team will have a much tighter grip on the storyline this time, with the players being able to influence the general direction of the story as with Justice/Duty but not super specific decisions will be left to the players.

Where was that said? I know that's been the general impression, but I can't recall if it was ever stated outright.

I'm not 100% certain, but I believe it was discussed during one of the #L5RLive streams (man I miss those).

3 hours ago, blackheartz said:

They have already explained that the story team will have a much tighter grip on the storyline this time, with the players being able to influence the general direction of the story as with Justice/Duty but not super specific decisions will be left to the players.

Then, after some of Donald Trump decisions, this is the second time this year I find myself regreting as people keep the promises they did...

One wonders if Aramoro "got" the insult. It almost seemed like an inside joke with Hotaru and Toshimoko, as well as other top tier samurai. Indeed, it would make sense that - as the probable new Emerald Champion - Toturi was more interested in communicating to the great and the good in the audience than his soon-to-be-defeated opponent.

On 7/12/2017 at 0:15 PM, shineyorkboy said:

In regard to Toturi declaring himself Emperor following the Coup, as far as he knew the Imperial bloodline had been wiped out which would inevitably lead to a civil was as the Clans fought over the throne. By doing what he did Toturi hoped to stop that needless strife before it began. It's the same reasoning Shoju used when he decided he'd need to become Emperor when he was planning the Coup.

Yeah, I know this setup, and I still can't quite see it. Basically Toturi was (of course, for the noblest motives) calling dibs and hope that it stuck. What can I say... at least Shoju's mind was affected by a cursed sword. In the end I think this is the best the then-current Story Team could do with the loose "pieces" previous story teams had already laid out. It makes sense only if you don't think much about it, IMO. That's why I *think* the current team are laying out their pieces with complete freedom in such a way we have a similar outcome, only it makes a little more sense this time around.

I'm not saying the previous story was garbage, by any means. I have loved classic Rokugan for over 20 years, now. However, that doesn't blind me to his faults and limitations. It was being created on the go by different creative teams, with lots of (too much, one could say) player input, and justifications for many plot points had to be devised after the fact (on occasion, years after). In cases like this, there was little wiggle room, and I honestly think they did a phenomal job... only there was an unspoken contract with the fans: "Don't think too hard about this; move on".

2 hours ago, Mon no Oni said:

Yeah, I know this setup, and I still can't quite see it. Basically Toturi was (of course, for the noblest motives) calling dibs and hope that it stuck. What can I say... at least Shoju's mind was affected by a cursed sword. In the end I think this is the best the then-current Story Team could do with the loose "pieces" previous story teams had already laid out. It makes sense only if you don't think much about it, IMO. That's why I *think* the current team are laying out their pieces with complete freedom in such a way we have a similar outcome, only it makes a little more sense this time around.

I'm not saying the previous story was garbage, by any means. I have loved classic Rokugan for over 20 years, now. However, that doesn't blind me to his faults and limitations. It was being created on the go by different creative teams, with lots of (too much, one could say) player input, and justifications for many plot points had to be devised after the fact (on occasion, years after). In cases like this, there was little wiggle room, and I honestly think they did a phenomal job... only there was an unspoken contract with the fans: "Don't think too hard about this; move on".

I'm still hoping we will have a different outcome. The current set-up, especially with two imperial heir, gives me hope they will go in a radically different direction. Please do not give me another Scorpion Coup, followed by Fu Leng as an emperor.

1 hour ago, Tetsuhiko said:

I'm still hoping we will have a different outcome. The current set-up, especially with two imperial heir, gives me hope they will go in a radically different direction. Please do not give me another Scorpion Coup, followed by Fu Leng as an emperor.

As I'm seeing it, both Sahai and Daisetsu are right now at the same place at the same time. Again, less convoluted than... the consort Empress being kidnapped by Bloodspeakers, young prince believed dead but instead being sent to a Jigoku and frozen in time for some years; then on a completely different track Iuchi Shahai being drawn to maho, rising in the ranks of bloodspeakers, then both of them meeting at the City of the Lost. This way, they met earlier, and the same story leads both of them into maho.

I am curious as to how the various candidates for Emerald Champion are selected. My first guess would’ve been that each Clan Champion selects a candidate — that appeared to be the case for Scorpion. But, Toturi appears to have been put forward by a coalition of prominent Lion leaders with ulterior motives. It would seem that each Clan has its own custom. In fact it is not clear to me whether each Clan must put forward a candidate or is in fact limited to just one.

As far as the Grey Crane apparently not being the Crane candidate, I would assume that there is some element of practicality to each Clan’s selection process. Toshimoko does not strike me as temperamentally suited to the role and doubtless Hotaru (and leading Cranes) would not choose him for those reasons.

Also, Kakita Tshimoko seems indifferent at best to the the Magistrates in general, or his borther's legacy in specific. The Crane most driven to be Emerald Champion would have been Doji Kuwanan. Given that the Emerald Magistrates signed off on the 'no suspicious circumstances', it wouldn't be the most obvious or immediate place for him to begin his own quest for truth & justice after leaving Matsu Tsuko, so he seems to be tied up back in Crane lands.

I got the impression that Toturi wasn't selected by the elder Lino with ulterior motives, more that he was encouraged to select himself.

Well, that’s a bit of a question. Ikoma Ujiaki clearly wants to get Toturi out of the way, to leave the day-to-day running of the clan to the warmonger faction, we know that from being in his head. But Akodo Kage... He’s the one that gets Toturi to embrace the idea. Is he aligned with the warmongers or did he just co-opt the idea, either in Toturi’s own interest or for a mystery motive?

51 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

Well, that’s a bit of a question. Ikoma Ujiaki clearly wants to get Toturi out of the way, to leave the day-to-day running of the clan to the warmonger faction, we know that from being in his head. But Akodo Kage... He’s the one that gets Toturi to embrace the idea. Is he aligned with the warmongers or did he just co-opt the idea, either in Toturi’s own interest or for a mystery motive?

It's Kage. Even if the kolat isn't a thing on the new storyline (afaik), i would be disappointed if he isn't a shameless schemer.

I think he’s a pro-Toturi schemer though. We have a setup where the Ikoma are the ‘bad guys’ in the Lion. Ujiaki’s a warmonger, and the marriage between the Ikoma & the Unicorn was meant to rob them of their Champion. They took Kakita Asami hostage. They’re also the most likely candidates to have hired the ronin that seized Doji Kuwanan. Matsu Tsuko is the nominal head of the warmongers, but in the wake of the story choice is now suspicious that she’s being manipulated. Matsu Agetoki appears staunchly pro-Toturi, and Kitsu Motso is just uncomfortable by the whole situation.

An Akodo Kage running a quiet inquisition inside the Lion while Toturi tries to hold the Empire together...

8 minutes ago, Doji Hyōkin said:

I think he’s a pro-Toturi schemer though. We have a setup where the Ikoma are the ‘bad guys’ in the Lion. Ujiaki’s a warmonger, and the marriage between the Ikoma & the Unicorn was meant to rob them of their Champion. They took Kakita Asami hostage. They’re also the most likely candidates to have hired the ronin that seized Doji Kuwanan. Matsu Tsuko is the nominal head of the warmongers, but in the wake of the story choice is now suspicious that she’s being manipulated. Matsu Agetoki appears staunchly pro-Toturi, and Kitsu Motso is just uncomfortable by the whole situation.

An Akodo Kage running a quiet inquisition inside the Lion while Toturi tries to hold the Empire together...

I'm seeing the same threads weaving through the Lion clan as you..... I kind of like the idea of the Ikoma being what they are looking like in this L5R.

And it’s the only case where a whole family seems to be driving the clan’s problems.

Hotaru and Kuwanan, Altansarai and Shinjo, Kachiko and Shoju. All are basically domestic disagreements that haven’t yet spilled out to the clan at large. The Lion are already there.