Please, there is no need to slander Ikoma. Let's just take a look at the previous "administration":

• Arasou, Akodo daimyo and Lion Champion
• Tsuko, Matsu daimyo, betrothed to Arasou
• Ujiaki, Ikoma daimyo ambassador

All three favor aggressive expansion of Lion influence. We can generate all kinds of theories out of the air about someone or some group manipulating them to be aggressive. But there is a far simpler explanation: the Lion Clan is inherently aggressive. The Lion maintain the largest standing army in Rokugan. The thing about an army is, it wants to do its job. It wants to fight wars. There is nothing to wonder about when it comes to Lion aggression; it's like wondering about Scorpion deception. Who manipulated Shoju and Kachiko into being so sneaky and underhanded? Nobody, it's in their nature. Lion has its nature, too. At the beginning of the new continuity, the most powerful leaders of the Lion Clan all happened to be the usual aggressive Lions.

Toturi is the odd man out. By slaying Arasou in battle, Hotaru threw the Lion leadership out of alignment. Matsu views Toturi as weak and indecisive. Ujiaki thinks he's more Phoenix than Lion. As everyone knows, Toturi is not a typical Lion. Some, however, would say that he is an extraordinary Lion.

For those who suspect Ujiaki hired Kujira and his ronin band - the real issue there was to put Doji Kuwanan at Tsuko's mercy. Whoever was behind it assumed Tsuko would kill Kuwanan. I doubt this was a matter of further decaying Crane/Lion relations because they are already at the breaking point and Tsuko, of all people, required no persuasion on that matter. Rather, it makes more sense that the point was to get rid of Kuwanan.

Why? Because Kuwanan believes his father was murdered and won't rest until he finds out who did it. So if Ujiaki was behind hiring the ronin then then the implication would be that he had something to do with Doji Satsume's death. While Ujiaki could have wanted to make room for a Lion to become Emerald Champion, this doesn't seem supported by Service And Sacrifice , where the plan for a Lion to become Emerald Champion seems to occur to him for the first time.

I guess we're doing the thing where the Prince is possessed by Fu Leng again.

It'll be interesting to see him interact with Toturi considering how the Prince has ogled Kaede in the past.

@Manchu Ujiaki is not the Ikoma Daimyo. He's just a delegate to the Imperial Court. And just because he hadn't planned on kicking Toturi upstairs to become Emerald Champion doesn't mean he couldn't have been involved in Satsume's death. Satsume dying would still have destabilized the Crane leadership and removed one of their primary legal defenses so there's plenty of motivation.

Oh, I don’t suspect that someone is making the Lion aggressive. As you rightly point out, it’s their default state. In fact, creating provocative situations that serve as a pretext for war is part of the Ikoma mandate and was probably wholeheartedly approved by Arasou. But the Ikoma notably don’t get on board with the new administration when it falls to Toturi, preferring the prior status quo.

Yes, I forgot Anakazu is still the Ikoma daimyo in this continuity. But the point stands, Ujiaki seems to be more powerful and influential than Anakazu.

Keep in mind that Satsume had retired as Crane Champion and promoted Hotaru over a year before his death. Moreover - his death has not actually destablized Crane leadership.

It's true Ujiaki believes Satsume, as Emerald Champion, stood between the Lion and their claim on the Osari Plains. But this is not only true, it's also open knowledge - and something Ujiaki discusses openly with Toturi. A conspirator to treasonously murder the Emerald Champion would not be so careless as to his potential motive, especially not directly to a potential successor. I also don't believe Ujiaki is a dishonorable man.

If any Lion is a prime suspect, it's Kage: a man "who sees where [Toturi] needs to go to achieve greater things" indeed. Kage also could have hired Kujira to ensure that Tsuko and Kuwanan came face-to-face.

5 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Yes, I forgot Anakazu is still the Ikoma daimyo in this continuity. But the point stands, Ujiaki seems to be more powerful and influential than Anakazu.

Well Anakazu hasn't shown up yet so it's only natural that Ujiaki seems more influential since he's actually out doing things.

10 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Keep in mind that Satsume had retired as Crane Champion and promoted Hotaru over a year before his death. Moreover - his death has not actually destablized Crane leadership.

I don't know it certainly seems to have caused, or at least exacerbated, a wedge between Hotaru and Kuwanan and between Yoshi and Toshimoko. Plus an experienced and respected statesman who was available to provide advice and guidance no longer is.

20 minutes ago, Manchu said:

It's true Ujiaki believes Satsume, as Emerald Champion, stood between the Lion and their claim on the Osari Plains. But this is not only true, it's also open knowledge - and something Ujiaki discusses openly with Toturi. A conspirator to treasonously murder the Emerald Champion would not be so careless as to his potential motive, especially not directly to a potential successor. I also don't believe Ujiaki is a dishonorable man.

Now we're back to the issue of pretty much everybody having a motive to see Satsume dead. You could even argue that Ujiaki being so casual about it is an intentional ploy to throw suspicion off himself. 'I'm so open about it it couldn't possibly be me.'

As for being honorable, he's already shown he's willing to undermine his Clan Champion despite Bushido saying his Duty is to serve his lord. Is it that much of a stretch to think he could have an Emerald Champion killed, especially one from a Clan hostile to his own.

Court is a battlefield after all. And on the battlefield all actions are honorable.

We've met the Lion movers and shakers. If Anakazu is influential, we'll see it when we see it. In the meantime, Arasou, Tsuko, and Ujiaki (who are all related, at least in old canon) represent the "Lion Rampant" geopolitical strategy. Nothing strange/suspicious about that.

Crane leadership seems politically aligned to me, despite very private differences in how family members personally remember Satsume. Kuwanan is riding to Kyuden Kakita - possibly to begin his own investigation. If he hopes to pressure Hotaru into changing her mind, he'll need to give her a reason. The hint is, he's meeting someone at Kyuden Kakita with a great talent for words. But we can be pretty confident that stirring up trouble between Hotaru and Kuwanan wasn't the point of Satsume's alleged murder for the simple reason that someone - almost certainly the killers - also tried to arrange Kuwanan's death.

I don't agree that the Empire is rife with murder suspects. Assassinating the Emerald Champion is a severely dishonorable act and, on top of that, would require some pretty impressive string-pulling. If Satsume was murdered then Rokugan is in big trouble. I therefore conclude that Satsume was murdered. But the problem isn't everyone is a likely murderer; the problem is, no one is.

On 12/7/2017 at 6:46 PM, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Where was that said? I know that's been the general impression, but I can't recall if it was ever stated outright.

Yes, it was on one of the L5RLive streams before the release but cannot remember which one it was on.

7 hours ago, Manchu said:

I don't agree that the Empire is rife with murder suspects.

... Why?

7 hours ago, Manchu said:

Assassinating the Emerald Champion is a severely dishonorable act and, on top of that, would require some pretty impressive string-pulling. If Satsume was murdered then Rokugan is in big trouble. I therefore conclude that Satsume was murdered. But the problem isn't everyone is a likely murderer; the problem is, no one is.

Ah, the dishonorable thing... but honor is a matter for individuals.

The Scorpion have obvious issues with honor. The nuevo Ikoma seem incredibly flexible about it when it comes to getting their jobs done (I will note that the Matsu or Akodo would have certainly had him killed, but in a less shady fashion). The Crab barely care. The Dragon (in their debut fiction so, so long ago) have evidence of a few intense and probably dishonorable types, and are sometimes open to loose cannons doing their own things, to say nothing of Yokuni issuing cryptic orders that don't make sense even to the Dragon at times. The Unicorn (who aren't on my list of suspects at the moment, mostly because they have genuinely zero motive, but cannot be disregarded since we have almost nothing to go on) have different definitions of honor. The Phoenix (for all that we've seen of them- we've only been in the heads of two overtly heroic/sympathetic types, Tsukune and Kaede) could be up to practically anything, especially since the Council are all total ciphers at this stage.

Really, even the Crane aren't off the hook- Harriers (who exist based upon having a card for one) do insanely shady stuff, and Satsume was a polarizing figure in the Crane Clan. With that said, if the killer is a Crane, I don't think it's a Crane we've met yet.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

[...] The nuevo Ikoma seem incredibly flexible about it [...]

I don’t know why your autocorrect changes words to Spanish, but for a moment there, I couldn’t help but imagine Ujiaki with a giant Mexican hat.

Honor is not so relativistic in the Empire as some posters may suggest. On this board, posters faint in outrage over a jibe concerning a mouth harp but don't mind when a Clan Champion breaks her word. But in Rokugan, the former is ordinary verbal sparring while the latter is explicitly "incredible." In Rokugan, assassinating the Emerald Magistrate is an abominable crime not least of all because it is an offense against the Emperor himself. It would require a rare level of depravity.

9 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Honor is not so relativistic in the Empire as some posters may suggest. On this board, posters faint in outrage over a jibe concerning a mouth harp but don't mind when a Clan Champion breaks her word. But in Rokugan, the former is ordinary verbal sparring while the latter is explicitly "incredible." In Rokugan, assassinating the Emerald Magistrate is an abominable crime not least of all because it is an offense against the Emperor himself. It would require a rare level of depravity.

Actually referring to the Daimyo of a major family is actually a very grave insult. The breaking of the Marriage arrangement while it can be an equally major event, does not automatically bring dishonor on the parties involved. Circumstances will change which may cause the arrangement to no longer be acceptable to either or both parties. If the marriage were finalized or had been mandated by some sort of Imperial Decree than you may see more honor fallout from it, but in the eyes of the Unicorn the terms of the deal were changed due to the bait and switch offer (we'll more closely ally our clans through marriage, oops forgot to mention your Champion will be taking a demotion due to an idiosyncratic tradition unique to one of our families involved that we neglected to mention to you) which entitles them to withdraw from the arrangemen.

The Unicorn Champion broke her word as to an inter-clan treaty to prevent war. The characters in the setting, including Altansarnai, all understand this is a matter of extraordinary shame. Meanwhile, Yasuki Taka was not actually gravely insulted by anything Kakita Yoshi said. The fiction says X, you say Y. I'll stick with the fiction.

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

The Unicorn Champion broke her word as to an inter-clan treaty to prevent war. The characters in the setting, including Altansarnai, all understand this is a matter of extraordinary shame. Meanwhile, Yasuki Taka was not actually gravely insulted by anything Kakita Yoshi said. The fiction says X, you say Y. I'll stick with the fiction.

I'm not going to rehash this with you since I know you have your view and lord knows we don't need to go over this again but in society as class driven as the Samurai were, yes implying to the head of a major family that he is a peasant to his face would have started wars in some circles. There was no war brewing between the Lion and Unicorn prior to the marriage proposal there was tension but no overt hostility. Is there a potential for shame to come out of the broken proposal, sure but there was equal shame for the Unicorn from going through with it as it was tantamount to saying the Ikoma were of greater importance than the Shinjo. The Lion have their stance, the Unicorn have their's and the rest of Empire is left to decide how they feel about it. But I will reiterate there was no iron clad rule that the Unicorn were required to go through with the marriage unless it was being done by Imperial Decree (which it wasn't) and so they were within their rights to back out of it. Just as the Lion are within their rights to try exert control over lands that they may have been entitled to as part of the deal since they honored their part of the deal and the Unicorn backed out. The only one who can make a final determination is the Emperor.

There is no need to rehash this.

Yasuki Taka was not offended.

Altansarnai shamed herself and her clan, as well as the Ikoma and the Lion at large.

These aren't just "my views."

Look! A distraction! *fan dance*

How about that favorite local sake? Now that Toturi is Emerald Champion, peace will break out all over the Empire, right? Master of the Lion armies & the Imperial Legions, maybe the Crab will consider him to be an acceptable commander and he can lead the combined forces to the Wall.

shiba ujimitsu’s death I think is linked to Satsume’s. It seems odd to have gone to the effort of mentioning him as Phoenix daimyo, only to kill him off. Especially as by the time we’ve been introduced to the story all the cards will have already been made.

Maybe Ujimitsu will be Tsukune's Ben Kenobi.

1 hour ago, JolOfNar said:

shiba ujimitsu’s death I think is linked to Satsume’s. It seems odd to have gone to the effort of mentioning him as Phoenix daimyo, only to kill him off. Especially as by the time we’ve been introduced to the story all the cards will have already been made.

This is was part of the “The Story so Far” introduction that FFG did prior to the more specific fictions. They did something similar with Arasou:

The Scorpion maintain a tenuous alliance with the Lion Clan’s leader, Akodo Arasou, who seeks to carry out an age-old vendetta against the Crane at the side of his beloved, the warrior Matsu Tsuko. No army can withstand the ferocity and tenacity of the Lion’s warriors or the stratagems of the clan’s brilliant new general, Akodo Toturi.

They mention Ujimitsu and Arasou as champions, but I think the intent was that we got surprised when they revealed the new champions, like “OMG! I can’t believe Arasou just died, I thought they said he was the Lion champion!”

Meaning the same with Ujimitsu.

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

There is no need to rehash this.

And yet here we are!

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

Yasuki Taka was not offended.

But he was insulted, whether it got under his skin or not. Insulted by a man he thought of in a highly vengeful manner the next time we saw him- not just "the Crane suck," but Yoshi in particular (mind you, I don't attribute his rage to Yoshi's insults to Taka as an individual- there was plenty of other material for Taka to get mad about).

True, a man who dresses up as a peasant should be prepared to weather jibes about that fact, especially from someone who holds not just him, but also his entire family in contempt, but that doesn't mean he didn't recognize the insult for what it was.

3 hours ago, Manchu said:

Altansarnai shamed herself and her clan, as well as the Ikoma and the Lion at large.

These aren't just "my views."

Ah, but they are- shared with Shono, perhaps- and possibly with me- but they aren't a universal declarative truth. Certainly, you appear to be overestimating the degree of the offense in the eyes of most of Rokugan- safe to say, Clans that like the Lion will use it as an excuse to curry favor, just as Clans who like the Unicorn- or who just hate the Lion- will politely ignore it. I must question, though, whether she actually "shamed" the Ikoma in particular or the Lion in general- if they're the aggrieved party, then any shame ceases to exist when the Lion take action to seek restitution and avenge the insult- which they have done. The small scale of the Lion's action indicates that the insult, while very real, is not exactly beyond the pale.

Mind you, this whole marriage mess is my biggest stumbling block in the new story thus far, for reasons I've droned on about at length elsewhere.

9 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

I don’t know why your autocorrect changes words to Spanish, but for a moment there, I couldn’t help but imagine Ujiaki with a giant Mexican hat.

That wasn't autocorrect, that's my nickname for them. I don't recall quite as much Court Slime on the Ikoma last go-around. It's a welcome change.

4 hours ago, Manchu said:

Maybe Ujimitsu will be Tsukune's Ben Kenobi.

One of many, most likely...

4 hours ago, JolOfNar said:

shiba ujimitsu’s death I think is linked to Satsume’s.

I share this suspicion.

Taka and Yoshi traded insults as courtiers are wont. Another day passes, the sun rises and sets. Those who hate Kakita Yoshi and the Crane have an excuse to feign outrage, fine. Then to bend over backwards defending an act so dishonorable it's considered "incredible," so shameful that it turns son against mother, vassal against lord - that's also fine: but the double standards are laid plain ... er than they already were. The disconnect between the setting and our world is, of course, all part of the fun.

8 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

This is was part of the “The Story so Far” introduction that FFG did prior to the more specific fictions. They did something similar with Arasou:

The Scorpion maintain a tenuous alliance with the Lion Clan’s leader, Akodo Arasou, who seeks to carry out an age-old vendetta against the Crane at the side of his beloved, the warrior Matsu Tsuko. No army can withstand the ferocity and tenacity of the Lion’s warriors or the stratagems of the clan’s brilliant new general, Akodo Toturi.

They mention Ujimitsu and Arasou as champions, but I think the intent was that we got surprised when they revealed the new champions, like “OMG! I can’t believe Arasou just died, I thought they said he was the Lion champion!”

Meaning the same with Ujimitsu.

Arasous’ death I think is also connected. Not the actual killing, but a situation where it was a likely outcome.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

Taka and Yoshi traded insults as courtiers are wont. Another day passes, the sun rises and sets. Those who hate Kakita Yoshi and the Crane have an excuse to feign outrage, fine. Then to bend over backwards defending an act so dishonorable it's considered "incredible," so shameful that it turns son against mother, vassal against lord - that's also fine: but the double standards are laid plain ... er than they already were. The disconnect between the setting and our world is, of course, all part of the fun.

Quote

A matchmaker will arrange meetings between the parents of prospective spouses (to which the two candidates for marriage may or may not be invited—if present they do not speak to each other). This is the beginning of the negotiation stage, and either family can pull out without loss of face—they need
only inform the matchmaker, and she will politely tell the other family.

Once the marriage contract has been written out and signed by all parties, however, the engagement is of cial and breaking it embarrasses both families and the matchmaker.

This is part of the RPG’s 4th edition “Emerald Empire” so, of course, it may be entirely irrelevant now. If it carries over to new Rokugan, I think we can assume they were past that initial negotiation stage. In that case the book calls what happened an embarrassment for both families, but doesn’t specify how severe a breach of etiquette it is, or how common it is for it to happen. However, I guess if it were something truly outrageous the book would mention it.

I do agree that the criticism of Yoshi is a bit overblown, with his words not being out of the ordinary in court. In fact when he says that the Mantis spotting ships sent to help the Crab would doom them (one of his most criticised actions) Taka actually agrees with him. What I would criticise the most was that he was needlessly antagonistic without anything to gain from maintaining that attitude (perhaps discouraging Taka from attempting to request an audience again, but that seems flimsy), simply because he dislikes Taka and/or the Crab or because he thinks he can get away with it, tough one could also accuse Taka of that.

I think one of the big reasons Yoshi comes off as a bully in A Difference Of Lanterns is because the story is told from Taka's POV. If it was told from Yoshi's POV, where the impropriety of Taka's mannerisms and affectations would have been pointed out to the reader in detail, Yoshi's words might not seem so lopsidedly rude.

As to marriage customs - I don't think that paragraph is relevant regardless of whether or not it's canon. The issue to hand is not really about marriage per se so much as "foreign policy." Altansarnai isn't just breaking an engagement; she's broadcasting to the entire Empire that the word of the Unicorn Clan Champion, even when it comes to such grave matters as high-level politics, is hypothetically worthless. This is why Altansarnai herself argues reneging would bring great dishonor on her and the clan. This is why her own son upbraided her for doing so, a very bold action in itself. And this is why, back at the capital, even an understanding fellow like Toturi would view Altansarnai's action as beyond belief.

29 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I think one of the big reasons Yoshi comes off as a bully in A Difference Of Lanterns is because the story is told from Taka's POV. If it was told from Yoshi's POV, where the impropriety of Taka's mannerisms and affectations would have been pointed out to the reader in detail, Yoshi's words might not seem so lopsidedly rude.

As to marriage customs - I don't think that paragraph is relevant regardless of whether or not it's canon. The issue to hand is not really about marriage per se so much as "foreign policy." Altansarnai isn't just breaking an engagement; she's broadcasting to the entire Empire that the word of the Unicorn Clan Champion, even when it comes to such grave matters as high-level politics, is hypothetically worthless. This is why Altansarnai herself argues reneging would bring great dishonor on her and the clan. This is why her own son upbraided her for doing so, a very bold action in itself. And this is why, back at the capital, even an understanding fellow like Toturi would view Altansarnai's action as beyond belief.

If it was told from Yoshi's pov I don't think this story would have been told. It would be 2 lines like

"The Emperor told me to refuse any support to the Crab. Probably Kachiko's bidding. I'd much rather be screwing people over of my own accord, but I guess if the Emperor wants someone screwed over I might as well enjoy doing it... Nvm its that boorish Taka... this won't be fun at all. I hope its over quick, I could really use a snack."

7 minutes ago, shosuko said:

If it was told from Yoshi's pov I don't think this story would have been told. It would be 2 lines like

"The Emperor told me to refuse any support to the Crab. Probably Kachiko's bidding. I'd much rather be screwing people over of my own accord, but I guess if the Emperor wants someone screwed over I might as well enjoy doing it... Nvm its that boorish Taka... this won't be fun at all. I hope its over quick, I could really use a snack."

Now i want to read every story in Yoshi's perspective.