Beneath, Below, Beyond

By Shiba Gunichi, in L5R LCG: Lore Discussion

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

As explained, the story we are discussing is in its entirety an example of a Crane suspecting the Crab of working against them.

I explained above why Crane would not (and perhaps also could not) make up for the lack of Imperial aid.

I'm not sure that you are aware of this but some authors use something called foreshadowing to introduce an element of a story that they plan to use later at an earlier point so it is less jarring when it shows up later. If Yoshi were probing for any sort of connection between the Mantis and Crab than wouldn't he actually press on the issue, ask some follow up questions along the lines of "Now if there were some way that the Crab could assure shipments could get through unmolested I might be able to bring the matter back to the Emperor for further consideration" than yes I could buy he's probing for signs of a connection but since all he does is mention Mantis and than move on immediately to the next topic unless he suspects that the mere mention of the Mantis will get Taka, the Daimyo of a major family and one of the acknowledged shrewdest negotiators in the Empire, to flinch and react (and if that was his plan than again we have further proof that he is a fool).

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

As an aside, this is a complete misinterpretation.

Yoshi reflects that he would normally extract a favor from anyone asking a favor of him - this was a reference to Kakita Yuri, who is the one asking for the favor, not the Unicorn delegation. He even explicitly says, it doesn't matter to him that Kakita Yuri is a Crane or even his direct vassal, because the Imperial Chancellor is the Emperor's servant first and foremost. He also explicitly notes that Kakita Yuri is simply doing his own duty (and, by extension, Lady Asami is only doing hers). What's not explicit is why he grants Yuri's request despite the fact that he owes nothing to Yuri and Yuri offers him nothing.

I believe he does so because he respects Yuri's action. Unlike Ikoma Ujiaki, who simply demanded pride of place, Yuri acted with composure, compassion, and humility. Kakita Yoshi despises disorder and presumption but he also cherishes upright action and righteousness. (Hardly notable qualities for a villain.) He not only honors Yuri's request but also rebukes Lion impertinence.

Actually I was just using this as an example of us being shown the method that Yoshi usually uses to extract future consideration from others for his aid in smoothing the wheels of bureaucracy. You're right he does say he would have asked for something from Yuri, but he is actually getting something out of this for his Clan (the primary focus of all his efforts at court to support the Cranes position) as he is tweaking the Lion and if the Unicorn petition were to be accepted it kills the Lion's claim against the Crane for Toshi Ranbo dead in its tracks and secures the Cranes interest in the area. There is nothing about respect in anything he says while considering the matter, just displeasure with the Lion and a chance to poke at them.

13 minutes ago, Manchu said:

But why? I agree, the Emperor sent Kakita Yoshi on Kachiko's advice. That is not related to the fact that Kakita Yoshi took the opportunity to probe Yasuki Taka for information.

Not entirely correct. The Emperor hinted to Kachiko that he did not wish to grant Yasuki Taka an audience. Kachiko then suggested sending Kakita Yoshi. As chancellor, Kakita Yoshi was the natural choice. But I a do agree that Kachiko likely wanted to put the Crane and Crab least likely to get along in the same room. She also explicitly thinks to herself that she wants to distract Kakita Yoshi. But the important thing is, the Emperor could be subtly playing Kachiko.

Ok, since you insist on claiming it, when and where does Kakita Yoshi "probe [...] for information"? He even interrupts Taka when he tries to explain why the Crab felt the Lion retaining independence would be a bad idea.

I've re-read the story literally seconds ago, and the only thing I see is a Crane lording his position over a Crab because he can. Please, quote where he does anything more than shut down Taka because he can.

A Difference of Lanterns .

The Emperor was even in favor of giving the Crab their requested supplies before Kachiko told him that they didn't have the supplies to give. Kakita Yoshi being as insulting as possible towards the Crab delegate, rather than simply telling him there is no jade or food to spare, when the Crane are in need of allies; how is that in any way clever?

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

@shosuko

You say that if Kakita Yoshi suspected existing or potential Crab/Mantis collusion, he would have offered Yasuki Taka jade. Whose jade? As Imperial Chancellor, Yoshi was not authorized to give any aid. That leaves Crane jade. But Crane is in no position to give jade thanks to economic crisis and Mantis piracy.

In fact, Kakita Yoshi would have no incentive to hand over Crane jade given his suspicions - just the opposite. And indeed would what measly jade Crane could scrape together to pay off Crab be sufficient for Crab's needs? No. Therefore, could such a gesture actually prevent Crab from buying stolen Crane jade from Mantis? No. And as we know, would handing over jade have obstructed Yoritomo's plan? No.

I didn't say that Yoshi would give him jade - but it would give him incentive to try and work with Taka. If your jade is getting stolen, you might as well trade it for protection right? If I have 500 in my wallet and someone is going to mug me outside the building, I might as well give 200 to someone to walk me out and make sure I'm safe.

I don't think there is any suspicion of Crab + Mantis collusion. Mostly because it hasn't happened yet, Taka was as surprised as anyone else that Yoritomo was in his room. The fact that it hasn't happened yet, and the Mantis are perfectly find raiding the Crane without any incentive, makes it a stretch to say Yoshi believed anyone was working with them.

I think the flat denial was mostly because the Emperor had no jade to give, not to spite the Crab. Yoshi obviously believes the Mantis are out to get the Crane, thats obvious but I don't think he blames the Crab for any of it.

12 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I think the flat denial was mostly because the Emperor had no jade to give, not to spite the Crab. Yoshi obviously believes the Mantis are out to get the Crane, thats obvious but I don't think he blames the Crab for any of it.

I think it goes a little beyond this as he's passing along the Emperor's will that the Crab's request shall not be given, along with the standard Crane dislike for the Yasuki whom they view as traitors.

@Mangod

What would you like to read, Kakita Yoshi saying: "Yasuki-dono, do you want Mantis pirates attacking Crane lands - yes or no?" Here's the way he proposes it: "Alas, but the coasts are largely the province of the Crane and would be the soonest hit is such a plan failed, and such weapons fell into Yoritomo's hands. The Crab may be short of their equipment, but my own people would find themselves beset by a scourge made even stronger!"

@shosuko

I'm suggesting Kakita Yoshi could anticipate a reasonably likely outcome (that the Mantis could make a bargain with the Crab using stolen Crane jade). Whether that outcome had already occurred is irrelevant. I can't say your bodyguard analogy is apt. Even if Crane gave jade to Crab, Crab could not spare soldiers to protect Crane.

Edited by Manchu
1 minute ago, Manchu said:

@Mangod

What would you like to read, Kakita Yoshi saying: "Yasuki-dono, do you want Mantis pirates attacking Crane lands - yes or no?" Here's the way he proposes it: "Alas, but the coasts are largely the province of the Crane and would be the soonest hit is such a plan failed, and such weapons fell into Yoritomo's hands. The Crab may be short of their equipment, but my own people would find themselves beset by a scourge made even stronger!"

Except that than he fails to take it to the next logical step, "Now if you could offer some assurances that we need fear no such thing". Keep propping up this straw man argument that you keep hiding behind but I'm shocked you can trust it given how many holes others keep pointing out in it.

First, you are incorrectly using the term "strawman argument."

Second, what would the words you suggest accomplish? Let's say Yasuki Taka replied, sure we will send some ships to defend the Crane coast. Uh no - this is impossible for two reasons: (1) Crane cannot tolerate Crab military in Crane territory and (2) Crab cannot spare its military away from the Wall. (We won't even consider that Crab probably doesn't have forces capable of coastal defense.) But there is an even larger issue: Kakita Yoshi is not authorized to give Crab Imperial or Great Clan jade and Crane, whose jade is the only such over which Yoshi might have authority, cannot afford it thanks to economic crisis and Mantis piracy.

There was no "next logical step." Kakita Yoshi is insinuating that Crab want Crane destabilized, by marching foreign troops through Crane territory and by attracting even more Mantis pirates.

54 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

I'm not sure that you are aware of this but some authors use something called foreshadowing

What an amazingly ironic thing for you to post. In the first half of the story, Kakita Yoshi seems suspicious that Crab wants Mantis to attack Crane. In the second half of the story, Yoritomo shows up with just such a proposal.

Foreshadowing, what a technique.

54 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

You're right he does say he would have asked for something from Yuri, but he is actually getting something out of this for his Clan

You're missing the point. Yoshi normally requires something from anyone who asks him for something. That's independent from any other reason he might have to do that thing. The issue is, Kakita Yoshi asked nothing in return from Kakita Yuri, although he usually would have.

Say you ask me to pick up a drink for you at the store. I say I will do it if you wash the dishes. It doesn't matter to me that I was going to the store anyway; I still get to have you wash the dishes.

Edited by Manchu
16 minutes ago, Manchu said:

What an amazingly ironic thing for you to post. In the first half of the story, Kakita Yoshi seems suspicious that Crab wants Mantis to attack Crane. In the second half of the story, Yoritomo shows up with just such a proposal.

Foreshadowing, what a technique.

Actually... no. The perspective is entirely from Taka's POV, so we can't actually know what Yoshi was thinking, because his thoughts weren't being analyzed. All he did was stone-wall Taka, then run him in circles with reasons why the Crab's request couldn't be fulfilled (reasons that, if Kachiko was telling the truth (a big if), were untruthful in nature). If the intention of the writer was to imply that Yoshi was interrogating Taka over hypothetical connections to the Mantis, they did a pisspoor job of it. The proper way to do that is have Taka wonder why Yoshi keeps mentioning the Mantis. But he didn't, because that's not what was happening.

Actually ... yes.

Yasuki Taka was focused on the possibility of winning some aid for his clan. Only after the audience did he conclude that no deal had ever been possible. Kakita Yoshi walked in knowing no deal was possible and so was free to focus on other matters - and he brought up Mantis again and again, in the context of how aiding Crab could undermine Crane security.

f o r e s h a d o w i n g

Before Yasuki Taka has time to reflect more on the meeting, he finds himself face-to-face with Yoritomo.

14 minutes ago, Swordbreaker said:

run him in circles with reasons why the Crab's request couldn't be fulfilled (reasons that, if Kachiko was telling the truth (a big if), were untruthful in nature)

Now you complain that he's a liar. The previous complaint was he shamed the Emperor and made the Empire look weak. So now you want him to tell Yasuki Taka that there is no aid to give - without making the Empire look weak or are you guys now okay with that?

Edited by Manchu
23 minutes ago, Manchu said:

First, you are incorrectly using the term "strawman argument."

Second, what would the words you suggest accomplish? Let's say Yasuki Taka replied, sure we will send some ships to defend the Crane coast. Uh no - this is impossible for two reasons: (1) Crane cannot tolerate Crab military in Crane territory and (2) Crab cannot spare its military away from the Wall. (We won't even consider that Crab probably doesn't have forces capable of coastal defense.) But there is an even larger issue: Kakita Yoshi is not authorized to give Crab Imperial or Great Clan jade and Crane, whose jade is the only such over which Yoshi might have authority, cannot afford it thanks to economic crisis and Mantis piracy.

There was no "next logical step." Kakita Yoshi is insinuating that Crab want Crane destabilized, by marching foreign troops through Crane territory and by attracting even more Mantis pirates.

No I'm using it correctly, the original point that this argument started over was Yoshi is a fool since he does nothing to mollify the Crab and try to get them on side with the Crane and instead seems to do everything in his power to make them more inclined to become antagonistic to the Crane. You refuted that with Yoshi is only acting the way he is because he knows or for some unknown reason suspects that the Crab and Mantis are working together or plotting to get together (your Strawman) but you go ahead and keep flogging away at that.

10 minutes ago, Manchu said:

What an amazingly ironic thing for you to post. In the first half of the story, Kakita Yoshi seems suspicious that Crab wants Mantis to attack Crane. In the second half of the story, Yoritomo shows up with just such a proposal.

Foreshadowing, what a technique.

You're missing the point. Yoshi normally requires something from anyone who asks him for something. That's independent from any other reason he might have to do that thing. The issue is, Kakita Yoshi asked nothing in return from Kakita Yuri, although he usually would have.

Say you ask me to pick up a drink for you at the store. I say I will do it if you wash the dishes. It doesn't matter to me that I was going to the store anyway; I still get to have you wash the dishes.

Again any hint aside from your assertion that Yoshi suspects the Crab are behind the Mantis attacks on the Crab. Anything that involves him probing further into it which as a loyal servant of the Crane he should be pressing on, nope he drops it as soon as they move to the next topic. Mantis are his boogeyman that is easy to wheel out to end the conversation and nothing more. I assume this is the situation you see as the most likely.

Random Doji: My lord Yoshi here are the latest reports on the Mantis raids on our Cost. 5 Ships were attacked since our last missive. Three were merchant ships transporting gold and rice from some of our more stable holdings to the North to our Tsunami ravaged coast which the Mantis made off with. One was a swift messenger ship that carried little of value however they did take what limited supplies it had. The last was that carrying merchant supplies of Gold and a a chest Jade for transport to the artisan academies for their continued work.

Kakita Yoshi: Did you say of the five ships attacked this month one was carrying a small amount of Jade. It must be the Crab. They will rue the day they sicked the Mantis who have raided our fleets for years on us.

8 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Actually ... yes.

Yasuki Taka was focused on the possibility of winning some aid for his clan. Only after the audience did he conclude that no deal had ever been possible. Kakita Yoshi walked in knowing no deal was possible and so was free to focus on other matters - and he brought up Mantis again and again, in the context of how aiding Crab could undermine Crane security.

f o r e s h a d o w i n g

Before Yasuki Taka has time to reflect more on the meeting, he finds himself face-to-face with Yoritomo.

Now you complain that he's a liar. The previous complaint was he shamed the Emperor and made the Empire look weak. So now you want him to tell Kakita Yasuki that there is no aid to give - without making the Empire look weak or are you guys now okay with that?

No as others have said foreshadowing of the Crane suspecting that the Crab and Mantis have some sort of relation would be Taka mentally commenting on why does he keep bringing up the Mantis. Here we have a reminder to the readers that the Mantis are a force that exists in the setting and have been raiding the Crane. There has been absolutely nothing either before or after that hints in any way that Yoshi sees any active connection between the two clans, even when he considers the implications or Taka's kidnapping there is nothing to hint that he connects it in any way with the Mantis. He is using the Mantis as an excuse to end the audience and the author to reminder that they exist and are not fans of the Crane. Its set up for the follow up story where we get the first overtures from the Mantis to form an alliance with the Crab.

You are still using "strawman argument" incorrectly. You are also having trouble with foreshadowing. No jade is actually going to be sent. Yoshi's comments are therefore purely hypothetical: "if we give you supplies, Mantic will attack us - is that what you want?" Lo and behold, Yoirtomo appears and offers an alliance paid for with looted Crane jade.

Furthermore, you incorrectly summarized my argument, indicating that you do not understand it. Then you confirm that you don't understand my argument: you say I think the stolen jade is evidence that Crab is behind Mantis attacking Crane. How did you even make that up? No, the point is that Yoshi would be able to reason that the Mantis could tempt Crab into a deal using the stolen jade.

Except in Court Games (entirely from Yoshi's perspective), where the Mantis are never mentioned, not even when Yoshi is listing off the problems facing Rokugan (and himself, I guess). Not even when he mentions Taka's kidnapping does he even reference any supposed suspicions about a Crab-Mantis collusion. If they were important enough concern for him to perform an impromptu interrogation over the subject, I would think their would be more mention of them in a story entirely from his perspective.

9 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Now you complain that he's a liar. The previous complaint was he shamed the Emperor and made the Empire look weak. So now you want him to tell Kakita Yasuki that there is no aid to give - without making the Empire look weak or is doing that now okay with you guys?

That wasn't me, first of all.

Second, I think the general accusation was that he was acting foolishly . A definition of "foolish" is "ill-considered," or lacking foresight. The charge leveled against him was that he indirectly made the Empire look weak compared to a bunch of pirates and scoundrels; that's bad PR, true or not.

Third, my statement of Yoshi being untruthful is dependent on whether or not Kachiko's information is accurate (which I already said was dubious). She says the reason why they can't grant the Crab's request is a lack of resources. Yoshi tells Taka the primary reasons are (1) the threat of Mantis pirates, and (2) moving supplies by land would cause distress among the populace. There are a laundry list of reasons they said that, however.

There is short summary of recent political complications - this isn't an exhaustive list of the problems facing the Empire. Obviously, Kakita Yoshi thinks the poor harvests in Crane lands are a problem. Obviously, Kakita Yoshi thinks Mantis piracy is a problem. But neither of these things are on that list.

Yes, the original claim was he made the Empire look weak. And yet that is not the conclusion Yasuki Taka actually drew from the meeting. Indeed, if Kakita Yoshi had been forthright - assuming his information agrees with Kachiko's - that is what would have made the Empire look weak. Again, those who accuse him of being a fool suggest he should act like a fool.

We know that Kakita Yoshi is not actually explaining why there will be no Imperial aid because we know the decision had already been made before the meeting. Therefore, Kakita Yoshi has a different purpose. Some people say it is just to insult Yasuki Taka because Kakita Yoshi is a fool. That's flatly absurd. Every excuse Kakita Yoshi gives Yasuki Taka is an insinuation that the Crab are insincere and want to weaken the Crane.

Well, he could have used the occasion to make allies out of the Crab against the Lion. Unofficially, of course. That would have been a cunning move on his part.

Spiting Taka, though? Leading him on with the possibility of a deal even though there was no hope for that at all, what does that gain him or the Crane?

That's where the foolishness comes in.

We've covered this. You don't even have to try to consider this from Yoshi's POV if that is too difficult. Just ask yourself, what could Yasuki Taka have done to repair Crab/Crane relations in that meeting? Even if either had wanted to bring something to the table, neither did and it seems unlikely that either could have.

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

What an amazingly ironic thing for you to post. In the first half of the story, Kakita Yoshi seems suspicious that Crab wants Mantis to attack Crane. In the second half of the story, Yoritomo shows up with just such a proposal.

Foreshadowing, what a technique.

I don't buy it. I just re-read it and don't buy it. What lines in the story lead you to believe that Yoshi suspects any Crab + Mantis cooperation? Yoshi certainly uses the Mantis clan's raiding as an excuse to not send aid but I don't see anything that indicates Yoshi believes the Crab clan have anything to do with it.

Edited by shosuko
31 minutes ago, Manchu said:

We've covered this. You don't even have to try to consider this from Yoshi's POV if that is too difficult. Just ask yourself, what could Yasuki Taka have done to repair Crab/Crane relations in that meeting? Even if either had wanted to bring something to the table, neither did and it seems unlikely that either could have.

Taka had the same thing he gave to Yoritomo: support. Even if it wasn't enough to mend any relationships, the Crane could have leveraged the Crab's support against the Lion, if it ever came down to that, the same way Yoritomo is leveraging the Crab to support them in their bid for recognition. Yoshi had plenty to gain, even if it's just putting the Daimyo of the Yasuki in his place beneath him.

As it stands, Yoshi isn't acting very savvy for a politician.

@shosuko As I said, it's not that Yoshi thinks that the Crab are behind Mantis attacks. It's that he could guess that Mantis would approach Crab with looted Crane jade and weapons.

@Swordbreaker Maybe it's because Mantis had been a Great Clan for so long in Old L5R but keep in mind how radical Yoritomo's agenda is. It's not unreasonable to guess that only two people in the Empire might even be able to conceive of his goal at this point: one might be Togashi and the other would be Yasuki Taka. Any amount of support from a Great Clan - or even just the promise of eventual support at the right time - is therefore worth a huge amount to Mantis. Conversely, Crab and Crane have nothing remotely similar to offer one another.

Edited by Manchu

Really? There's absolutely nothing Yoshi could extract from Taka?

10 hours ago, HirumaShigure said:

Yoshi could have played the apologetic host, without shaming the emperor. I don't feel he did.

I would just like to clarify that my intent was not to accuse Kakita Yoshi of shaming the emperor. An example of Yoshi playing the apologetic host WHILE shaming the emperor would go something like this: "I'm so very sorry Taka-san. I wish there was something that could be done about this situation, but his majesty the Son of Heaven does not feel that the Crab has provided adequate reason to turn over supplies in defense of the Wall." ::all sincere smiles, while pouring tea for his guest:: This would excuse Yoshi of any of Taka's negative feelings, and put the blame on the emperor (which wouldn't have been the "honourable" thing to do anyway). What I would accuse Yoshi of doing is antagonizing Taka by being dismissive, condescending, and "playing his court games" with him.

If Yoshi was portrayed as a paragon of virtue, I think he would be boring. I'm glad he can be a "Crane Clan Jerk". He sees weakness and exploits it in his own way. Is it foolishness to provoke a desperate man with little to no alternatives just because you're in a position of power and get away with it, when you're own clan has ruthless enemies in the courts and others possibly about to declare war on your people? Pirates on the coast, famine in the fields, bandits on the trade routes... and then you try to kick somebody else while they're down? Come on, is that what Shinsei would say is a wise course of action?

@Swordbreaker Regrettably, no - "regrettably" for the sake of the Empire.

@HirumaShigure Taka gave as good as he got. These men fought a duel and nobody won. In a better world, there'd be no reason to fight.

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

You are still using "strawman argument" incorrectly. You are also having trouble with foreshadowing. No jade is actually going to be sent. Yoshi's comments are therefore purely hypothetical: "if we give you supplies, Mantic will attack us - is that what you want?" Lo and behold, Yoirtomo appears and offers an alliance paid for with looted Crane jade.

Furthermore, you incorrectly summarized my argument, indicating that you do not understand it. Then you confirm that you don't understand my argument: you say I think the stolen jade is evidence that Crab is behind Mantis attacking Crane. How did you even make that up? No, the point is that Yoshi would be able to reason that the Mantis could tempt Crab into a deal using the stolen jade.

A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument , while refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man ".

Yoshi is a fool who is putting his own pride and arrogance ahead of the good of his clan and is making the Emperor look weak by the claim that the reason they can't send supplies to the Crab is that they can't protect them from being attacked by the Mantis (my argument). No he isn't he is concerned about the Crab/Mantis alliance that must be brewing since the Mantis (a clan of known opportunists) have been raiding the tsunami ravaged Crane coast (your Strawman since we have absolutely no proof anywhere that Yoshi suspects this).

I understand the argument you are making I just think that you have made far too many jumps to reach the conclusions you have and are now sticking to despite all attempts by multiple people to point out the absurdity of it. You've sited multiple times that the Crab requesting Jade (a vital resource that they are in desperate need of to protect their troops from the Shadowlands taint while they defend the Empire) coupled with the fact that he knows that there was a shipment Jade among the treasure stolen from the Crane by the Mantis means that he needs to be concerned about the two coming together. Crab are always asking for more Jade. At one point they were given the right to flat out requisition whatever Jade they needed and it was there's no questions asked. Since the construction of the Wall there was an substantial lobbying effort by the other clans to get that right rescinded so that they could stockpile there own supply of the resource. The fact that there was Jade among the pillaged supplies that the Mantis have, if that fact even made it to Yoshi attention, and your stated belief that Yoshi is concerned that the Mantis may use it to court the Crab coupled with Yoshi defining political characteristic as being the guy who uses every opportunity he's presented with to try and extract an advantage for his Clan, and himself, means that he should have been using the opportunity he was afforded by being the one sent to decline the Crabs request for supplies to shore up support from them not spit in their face and tell them to get out of here.

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

There is short summary of recent political complications - this isn't an exhaustive list of the problems facing the Empire. Obviously, Kakita Yoshi thinks the poor harvests in Crane lands are a problem. Obviously, Kakita Yoshi thinks Mantis piracy is a problem. But neither of these things are on that list.

Yes, the original claim was he made the Empire look weak. And yet that is not the conclusion Yasuki Taka actually drew from the meeting. Indeed, if Kakita Yoshi had been forthright - assuming his information agrees with Kachiko's - that is what would have made the Empire look weak. Again, those who accuse him of being a fool suggest he should act like a fool.

We know that Kakita Yoshi is not actually explaining why there will be no Imperial aid because we know the decision had already been made before the meeting. Therefore, Kakita Yoshi has a different purpose. Some people say it is just to insult Yasuki Taka because Kakita Yoshi is a fool. That's flatly absurd. Every excuse Kakita Yoshi gives Yasuki Taka is an insinuation that the Crab are insincere and want to weaken the Crane.

Right so he's paranoid that the Crab are out to get his clan got it. Sorry if that was as great a concern of his as you are making out in your argument than it would have merited thought alongside the disappearance of Taka (a sure sign that negotiation have moved to the next level). This was the Sequence of Events:

Emperor: Yohsi we will not be able to send additional supplies to the Crab go deal with their emmisary and tell them as such.
Yoshi: Of course my lord
---
Taka: My lord this is a lovely room you have agreed to meet me in
Yoshi: Your a peasant who couldn't possibly appreciate it
Taka: Okay got it. My Lord Chancellor The Crab need troops and supplies
Yoshi: Can't do it Mantis might attack the ships
Taka: Than surely if you sent them by land.
Yoshi: Won't you think of the Peasants and the fear that could impose on them.
Taka: Alright so no troops what about just supplies.
Yoshi: Can't those blasted Mantis could steal them and use them against us
Taka: So send them overland
Yoshi: Nope not going to do it the Mantis might still steal them. Now GTFO.

Yoshi should be balancing his roles as Imperial emissary and representative of the Crane. There are ways he could have behaved while passing along the Emperor's wishes that serve to show he and his clan are sympathetic to the Crab's plight (which we know Hotaru is) and hopefully making a good impression on a potential ally (and yes the Crab could be an ally to a hard pressed Crane Clan) with his method in doing so. The impression that he is putting forth are that the Emperor is a) too weak to protect troop and supply ships from the Mantis to a clan who we know respect strength as the sign of a true Samurai and b) the protection of the Empire is less important than the concern of a few peasants who might see troops on the move. Its just short of saying Empire doesn't care about your troubles now GTFO. Why is he not offering the Crane aid in lobbying the Emperor to see if he can get an order for the Lion (our current enemy) forcing them to send troops and resources to aid the Crab unhampered by the demands of the previous champion. My clan is in serious jeopardy at the moment our two most prominent enemies (Lion and Scorpion) are in ascension and who are our biggest allies Unicorn and Phoenix. Hey didn't one of them just undergo a major change in leadership and marry a very high profile person to the new Champion of the Lion, maybe we should be reconsidering how stable that relationship is going to be in the future. Wow the Crab are in trouble and need help, our people are starving wouldn't it be great to maybe get some backup from their family that specializes in moving wealth ad resources around the Empire and using the extremely scant resources that the Crab have access to and stretching it to an extent that is almost unheard of by anyone else. Yeah that's the guy I want to throat punch when we are in trouble so that I can piss him off and add him to my potential enemies list.

41 minutes ago, Manchu said:

@shosuko As I said, it's not that Yoshi thinks that the Crab are behind Mantis attacks. It's that he could guess that Mantis would approach Crab with looted Crane jade and weapons.

@Swordbreaker Maybe it's because Mantis had been a Great Clan for so long in Old L5R but keep in mind how radical Yoritomo's agenda is. It's not unreasonable to guess that only two people in the Empire might even be able to conceive of his goal at this point: one might be Togashi and the other would be Yasuki Taka. Any amount of support from a Great Clan - or even just the promise of eventual support at the right time - is therefore worth a huge amount to Mantis. Conversely, Crab and Crane have nothing remotely similar to offer one another.

Again you're undercutting your own argument. If for what ever Yoshi even has a clue what Yoritomo's agenda is and can see how the Mantis might court the Crab to further it, how does his putting the boot to the throat of the Crab when they came to the Emperor in need do anything but further enhance the likelihood of that happening.

So far you've gone from well he was being an *** cause he was trying to confirm if the Mantis and Crab are working together, to no I meant his trying to feel out if there is the possibility that there are any overtures going on between the two, to now well he knows the Mantis have jade to offer the Crab so they could be a threat in the future. Your entire defense of Yoshi's missteps has been predicated on he knows the Mantis are up to something and he is trying to figure out what it is. But you also acknowledge the idea that they could be trying to push Yoritomo's agenda is so preposterous that no one except maybe the guy he is insulting or a living god could conceive of it. So why is he being an *** to Taka. Yoshi should be more than capable of recognizing that the Crab do have something to offer his Clan, a quiet front that they don't need to spend resources (both political and potentially military) watching over. Nope lets poke the bear (pun intended) and see if we can get him pissed with us as well.

Edited by Schmoozies
On 11/30/2017 at 2:12 PM, Manchu said:

It appears we can agree that the most important question is whether Kakita Yoshi convinced Yasuki Taka that the Emperor and Empire are weak. The answer is clearly No. Yasuki Taka left understanding that "[t]he flame hadn't gone out here - it was never going to catch." In other words, he knew that nothing Kakita Yoshi said had anything to do with whether the Imperial Court would provide supplies to Crab; that had already been decided.

There's the refutation of the "shamed the Emperor" argument. Yet again you mischaracterize/fail to understand my argument. Separately, Kakita Yoshi suspects that Crab wants to weaken Crane.

Edited by Manchu
9 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

This was the Sequence of Events:


Emperor: Yohsi we will not be able to send additional supplies to the Crab go deal with their emmisary and tell them as such.
Yoshi: Of course my lord
---
Taka: My lord this is a lovely room you have agreed to meet me in
Yoshi: Your a peasant who couldn't possibly appreciate it
Taka: Okay got it. My Lord Chancellor The Crab need troops and supplies
Yoshi: Can't do it Mantis might attack the ships
Taka: Than surely if you sent them by land.
Yoshi: Won't you think of the Peasants and the fear that could impose on them.
Taka: Alright so no troops what about just supplies.
Yoshi: Can't those blasted Mantis could steal them and use them against us
Taka: So send them overland
Yoshi: Nope not going to do it the Mantis might still steal them. Now GTFO.

Wow. This exactly how I remember it going down! It made me laugh out loud to see it boiled down to its true essence! New flavor text on Kakita Yoshi: "Now GTFO." :D