On 11/22/2017 at 6:24 PM, Shiba Gunichi said:

5. I also wonder, with the Mantis so openly having access to foreign goods, if the Kasuga even exist in this continuity.

The rulebook for the RPG open beta calls out the Tortoise Clan (and Kasuga family) as existing, and being one of a short list of organizations with permission to deal with foreigners. Now, of course, it's an early draft, someone could change their minds regarding the list of Minor Clans, etc. but at least for the moment we can assume they exist in-setting.

On 11/25/2017 at 2:27 PM, Coyote Walks said:

Source?

Daidoji Heavy Regulars (Secrets of the Crane, p34)
One method the Daidoji have embraced is to train some of their troops alongside the Crab warriors atop the Great Carpenter Wall. While the two clans have many philosophical differences, the Crane acknowledge that fighting on the wall is a great means of improving teamwork and sheer martial prowess. The Daidoji who return from these sojourns are hardened veterans who fight with the fury of ten men. Known as the heavy regulars, these men and women make up the majority of the Crane armies' heavy infantry. Among the Crab, the Heavy Regulars are known as "Iron Cranes."

The Heavy Regulars are not a recent innovation, but traditional. Of course, New 5R could have specifically changed it but the Crane have good intelligence on the situation on the wall. From 'Her Father's Daughter', we get this from Doji Hotaru's thoughts:

Quote

What gives you the impression that the Crane were trying to trade that Jade?

Because it was a significant amount of jade in a Crane-marked box. In a boat. That Yoritomo took. Unless you think the Crane carry boxes of Jade around on boats in pirate-infested oceans for no reason, it is fairly logical to assume that it was a tradegood.

1 hour ago, KakitaKaori said:

Daidoji Heavy Regulars (Secrets of the Crane, p34)
....

The Heavy Regulars are not a recent innovation, but traditional. Of course, New 5R could have specifically changed it but the Crane have good intelligence on the situation on the wall. From 'Her Father's Daughter', we get this from Doji Hotaru's thoughts:

To the south, the Crab are badly pressed on the Carpenter Wall, but we have little help to offer there, either.

OK, so they were there in the Old Setting . I'm not going to assume the same applies here until I see it in print.

As far as Hotaru is concerned, she could have learned that information from the Crab at court. They haven't exactly been quiet about their troubles on the Wall. Or her shinobi informed her.

If you are right about there being Daidoji on the Wall, then we get to call Kakita Yoshi a Traitor as well as a Fool , for trying to get his fellow Crane killed and corrupted.

2 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

Because it was a significant amount of jade in a Crane-marked box. In a boat. That Yoritomo took. Unless you think the Crane carry boxes of Jade around on boats in pirate-infested oceans for no reason, it is fairly logical to assume that it was a tradegood.

Yes, Yoritomo had in on the Bitter Wind . That doesn't mean he obtained the jade at sea. We know from earlier fictions that the Crane have stated that the Mantis are raiding the coastline. There are plenty of targets from Samui Kaze Toshi down to Shinden Asahina that the jade could have possibly come from.

1 hour ago, KakitaKaori said:

Because it was a significant amount of jade in a Crane-marked box. In a boat. That Yoritomo took. Unless you think the Crane carry boxes of Jade around on boats in pirate-infested oceans for no reason, it is fairly logical to assume that it was a tradegood.

The problem with this part of your thesis? Yoshi could easily have gone, "alas, the Empire has other priorities. As for the Crane, our jade was ripped off by Yoritomo or we'd totally help." Would allow him to say "no" while not making the Crab angrier at the Crane than necessary.

He didn't. He said, "everybody gets first crack at their jade, it's the law," with a heavy undercurrent of, "and I wouldn't help your family of traitorous scum anyway."

3 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

He didn't. He said, "everybody gets first crack at their jade, it's the law," with a heavy undercurrent of, "and I wouldn't help your family of traitorous scum anyway."

I mean... his family IS traitorous scum....

On 11/24/2017 at 1:28 AM, Shiba Gunichi said:

Nope.

Here's the distinction, and where I draw the line: Yoritomo made his move at a time of open battle, with clearly delineated enemies, stating that he would, in effect, give the forces fo Jigoku aid and succor by either (depending on the continuity) directly attacking the forces of Rokugan, or by taking his ball and going home, despite the stakes being crystal-clear.

While Kakita Yoshi is a fool, his malice is not on that order of magnitude.

It's really not that fine a distinction.

"Aid and succor" is a pretty big stretch. And there was no malice involved in any version of the story I've read. Callousness, maybe, towards the consequences if the clans didn't agree, but that's not the same thing as actively wanting harm to come to them.

4 hours ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

"Aid and succor" is a pretty big stretch. And there was no malice involved in any version of the story I've read. Callousness, maybe, towards the consequences if the clans didn't agree, but that's not the same thing as actively wanting harm to come to them.

"My forces will attack you immediately prior to your final throwdown with the forces of Jigoku" is aid and succor.

If you consider the Imperial Chancellor a fool, what do you see in the mirror?

I expect there is a Scorpion saying along those lines.

4 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

"My forces will attack you immediately prior to your final throwdown with the forces of Jigoku" is aid and succor.

(In the old story,) The Great Clans wouldn't have taken him seriously in any other moment. It was a good, dramatic to show resolve.

Of course, that is only because Fu Leng was defeated. If he had won, Yoritomo would have been branded a Traitor.

If Fu Leng had won ... what the Clans thought of Yoritomo would not have been a high priority. Good gamble for Yoritomo.

27 minutes ago, Manchu said:

If Fu Leng had won ... what the Clans thought of Yoritomo would not have been a high priority. Good gamble for Yoritomo.

We actually saw what happened when Fu Leng won. All the loyalists fled to Yoritomo's island while the Empire got corrupted out the wazoo.

31 minutes ago, Coyote Walks said:

(In the old story,) The Great Clans wouldn't have taken him seriously in any other moment. It was a good, dramatic to show resolve.

Yyyyeah . . . still not a fan. Being willing to sacrifice the lives and souls of hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, of people for your own ambition does not make me admire a guy.

10 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

Yyyyeah . . . still not a fan. Being willing to sacrifice the lives and souls of hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, of people for your own ambition does not make me admire a guy.

really cause that's what Yokuni did, first by suggesting to the Scorpion that killing the Hantei was a good idea, and then not telling anyone that the last Emperor was slowly being possessed by Fu Leng until it was almost too late.

2 hours ago, Manchu said:

If you consider the Imperial Chancellor a fool, what do you see in the mirror?

Someone not operating under the constraints of being a fictional character written to be a fool.

Since you seem compelled to ask.

The Scorpion Clan would have a field day with you.

1 hour ago, Schmoozies said:

really cause that's what Yokuni did, first by suggesting to the Scorpion that killing the Hantei was a good idea, and then not telling anyone that the last Emperor was slowly being possessed by Fu Leng until it was almost too late.

. . . explain to me how that was done out of ambition?

I'm more than happy to debate the ethics of "we must do this bad thing to prevent this worse one," fate and foresight, and whether Togashi's tactics were all that great. But I still see a fundamental difference between that and "whoo, I'll never have a better chance to grab power than right now, so long as I don't mind burning the whole world to the ground if I don't get what I want."

27 minutes ago, Manchu said:

The Scorpion Clan would have a field day with you.

Have something to address about Yoshi's folly and the actual events surrounding it, or are you just going to keep casting aspersion at what you think you know about my character?

Perhaps some clever argument that he wanted to push the Crab into the Mantis' arms to make them complicit in criminal behavior? Some argument that encouraging his enemies to find common cause was a wise move?

Frankly, if the Crane weren't depicted as being on the ropes, I'd think he was a jerk, not a fool- but since his clan is in an extremely bad way, hurting for friends and beset by foes?

I need not think myself terribly clever to regard him as a fool.

But by all means, make this conversation about me if it suits you to do so.

But you keep making it about you; or, more specifically, about your hatred for this character. I mean, we - specifically you and I - have gone over this ground already, in depth. To summarize - me: "Look at things from Kakita Yoshi's POV." then you: "No, he's just a fool." It's like a brick wall. We're no longer discussing the character; we're discussing your opinion of this character because you don't seem to be willing to consider how odd , if nothing else, it would be for "a fool" to have become the Imperial Chancellor.

It's not just an unwillingness to see things from an in-setting POV (related to suspension of disbelief). It also seems to be a case of not noticing that everything is seen through a POV. We're never seeing "things as they are" in these stories. Rather, we see things through the eyes of the characters. The setting of Rokugan comes to life through the perspective of the characters who inhabit it. Neither of us were sitting in a room observing Kakita Yoshi with our own eyes; we saw him from the perspective of Yasuki Taka. That's why it's so important to analyze Yasuki Taka's own action - or lack of action - in this story.

If the emissary of the Crab Clan does not even bother to make a case for why there is a crisis at the wall, how is the Imperial Chancellor to take the request for aid seriously? I believe Yasuki Taka was the wrong man for this task. At the outset of the story, he is characterized as uncomfortable with fine clothes and court intrigue. He prefers masquerading as a peasant and making a profit directly. His personality is a terrible match not only for the Imperial Chancellor but for Court life generally. These are aspects of Yasuki Taka's character - not indictments of Kakita Yoshi or court life.

But of course, Yasuki Taka is just the sort of character who could get along with Yoritomo.

8 minutes ago, Manchu said:

But you keep making it about you; or, more specifically, about your hatred for this character.

Hatred? No. He's doing his narrative job. Which is to be a fool.

You are ascribing motives and depths of emotion which are not present, and you are applying them to me, rather than to the argument.

8 minutes ago, Manchu said:

To summarize - me: "Look at things from Kakita Yoshi's POV." then you: "No, he's just a fool."

I see your memory is patchy on this subject.

I did examine things from Yoshi's POV, and determined that only a fool would carry out the actions he did, based upon the big picture you claim the Imperial Chancellor is tasked with.

As Imperial Chancellor, he made the throne appear coldly dismissive- and too weak to police its own shores from the fleet of a Minor Clan.

As Kakita daimyo, he caused a worsening in relations with a clan which borders his own- which would only make sense if he agreed that the Crab's situation was so desperate that they really needed the help they were asking for. So he's either saying that the Crab are absolutely right, and that they're sore-pressed by Jigoku's forces and stand in dire need of aid which will not be forthcoming... or he thinks they're shamming, in which case they'll most certainly be strong enough to make an issue of it at a time when the Crane are already embroiled in hostilities with the Lion. Neither train of thought is a wise one.

And the possible motives for doing so, based upon the state of the Crane as we have objectively observed it, appears to be simple prideful spite, because the Crane are not in a strong position on any level- the Scorpion hold the upper hand in the courts, their military- never their strongest suit- is tangled up with the Lion, and their agricultural wealth is gutted by the tsunami.

And the thing is, that's fine- as I have said elsewhere on this thread, we're really not at a part of the story where the Imperial Court makes things better. Narratively, folly must be perceived at the Imperial level to advance the story. We're in the calm before the storm, whatever form that ends up taking. Whether we see a coup attempt, the outbreak of a war between multiple clans, a major incursion of supernatural evil, none of it will move forward and advance if the Imperial Court takes well-considered and pragmatic actions. Kakita Yoshi is a fool because it's his job in the story to be a fool.

Unless you have some blisteringly clever insight to offer that would alter the situation to make Yoshi's moves at all wise and sagacious. You have not yet demonstrated any way in which Yoshi's actions are not folly- you have merely speculated that it's possible they might not be, based upon little more than the character's position as an Imperial functionary.

I am not the one making this about me. You are the one addressing personality, rather than substance.

wow, y'all still goin back and forth on this?

At what point do you have to consider - the fiction quality was just poor. This was like... a highly contrived part 1 full of inaction on all fronts. No characters in the first story engaged at all... turns out it was basically a bland set up to Yoritomo reveal.

Honestly I chalk it up as bad story telling. You could have written 2 lines and covered all of the lead into the 2nd part.

"I, Taka was sent to court, I hates court but needs to see the Emperor. Oh, its Yoshi instead of the Emperor... I guess I'll move on to plan b."

That's our first half of this fiction. Part 2 picks up from there with the real story. Just look at how much more alive Taka was in that second story... The first story was just a bad story. Don't consider Yoshi OR Taka bad for it, blame the story teller for not convincing us that any character was actually doing anything that we should care about... There were no decision points, or conflicts to get attached to in the first fiction.

In the RPG they give this section where they advise the GM to consider if a roll is even needed. Could a character pass a check? would it be interesting if they failed?

Well - no, Taka could not have passed any check to interact with Yoshi. It was a dead story, a quagmire of text that includes no value. Part 2 is the predestined outcome, part 1 was just a set up.

Wow that's an unfair and uncalled for summary of someone else's hard work....

5 hours ago, Kinzen said:

. . . explain to me how that was done out of ambition?

I'm more than happy to debate the ethics of "we must do this bad thing to prevent this worse one," fate and foresight, and whether Togashi's tactics were all that great. But I still see a fundamental difference between that and "whoo, I'll never have a better chance to grab power than right now, so long as I don't mind burning the whole world to the ground if I don't get what I want."

Not ambition more indifference, he set the chain of events leading up to the Clan War and return of Fu Leng in motion the moment he put the idea in Shoju's head that he could avert the prophecy of Fu Leng's return by killing the last Hantei (how SHouju thought he would get around the whole last Hantei thing by killing them himself still baffles me). Once the wars were under way his actions throughout the story only serve to further exasperate many of the events that lead to the return of Fu Leng, you could argue that he was merely preparing the empire to resist but he could have gone about this in a much more direct manner if he had come down from his mountain sooner and revealed himself.

Yoritomo's gambit was fully in character for him, he was making a declaration to the clans you've had your time in the light and its time to recognize that he and his were just as worthy of respect as the great clans were. He was prepared to lay his life on the line for that belief and fully expected to die as a result. The forces or Jigoku were already routed for the most part at that time, all that was left was the mopping up of the forces in the palace, and if the Clans couldn't handle that maybe they didn't deserve to win. Yes he might have been damning the Empire with his actions but on the counter based on the lead up to the Clan Wars maybe the Empire as it existed needed to be purged. The Clans at that point had all through their own ambition and arrogance already almost doomed the Empire and did nothing but look down on he and his people who had sacrificed as much if not more to help get them to that point they were at now. His demands were that the status quo needed to change and they could accept it or suffer the consequences.

1 hour ago, llamaman88 said:

Wow that's an unfair and uncalled for summary of someone else's hard work....

Is there something about this that makes it above scrutiny?

Do you feel that simply exerting effort and producing a "finished product" concludes that the product is of high quality or valuable?

1 hour ago, Soshi Nimue said:

Is there something about this that makes it above scrutiny?

Do you feel that simply exerting effort and producing a "finished product" concludes that the product is of high quality or valuable?

...

Y'know, for all that ol' Manchu and I bicker about what the story was trying to convey...

I think the first fiction that you're so hard on wasn't trying to do what you seem to think it failed to do. It wasn't really meant to advance the plot much, it was meant to set the stage.

"This is Yasuki Taka, a character new players will know absolutely nothing about, let's meet him, shall we?" It wasn't a "bland build-up to a Yoritomo reveal," it was a Taka debut fiction framing both his personality and the desperate state of mind he would be in by the time Yoritomo made his offer- the Crab's perpetual need for supplies is old hat to setting veterans, but it's not something a new player would be conversant with. The second fiction, which even you seem more fond of, would mean less without it.

1 hour ago, Soshi Nimue said:

Is there something about this that makes it above scrutiny?

Do you feel that simply exerting effort and producing a "finished product" concludes that the product is of high quality or valuable?

Scrutinize away. Just maybe realize the authors of some of these fictions are regulars on the forums here and don't need to be eviscerated simply because you didn't like their story.

And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was high quality or valuable just because they exerted effort. I said it was uncalled for and unfair to the subject at hand.

I meant you don't need to be mean about the work another person is very likely proud of, when the argument you were jumping into was about the motives behind characters inferred by readers with differing opinions.