47 minutes ago, Manchu said:

@shosuko As I said, it's not that Yoshi thinks that the Crab are behind Mantis attacks. It's that he could guess that Mantis would approach Crab with looted Crane jade and weapons.

Is there somewhere in the story that reveals this? I've read these again and again, and for some points its helped me understand people - but I don't see anything in the story that shows Yoshi thinks there is or potentially could be any Crab + Mantis collusion.

Here's my summary of the conversation:

Taka: Crab is owed soldiers, weapons, and jade.

Yoshi: What can you offer.

Taka: The continued safety of the Empire.

Yoshi: I see, so this is a stick up?

Taka: Your money or your life.

Yoshi: If things are so bad why refuse Lion?

Taka: Lion won't do whatever we want.

Yoshi: And the Emperor should?

Taka: Yes.

Yoshi: I'm not convinced you're being serious.

Taka: Crab wants troops, send them by land.

Yoshi: So you want non-Crane troops marching around Crane lands?

Taka: Send them by sea.

Yoshi: So you want to give Mantis pirates even more reason to attack Crane lands?

Taka: Just send the weapons and jade.

Yoshi: Uhhh ... same problem.

Taka: OK just the jade.

Yoshi: Same problem, guy. How don't you get this? I think you do get it, actually.

Taka: OK I'll just make a reference to poop then.

Yoshi: You can go now.

@shosuko

Mantis pirates are looting Crane coasts for valuables, including weapons and jade, while Crane is under pressure from Lion. Crab says they desperately need aid but turn down Lion. Crab also demands aid from the Emperor. Each possible way of aiding Crab would create additional risk for Crane (especially via Mantis). These are just the facts.

On the face of the facts, from Kakita Yoshi's POV , it appears Crab doesn't need aid badly enough to work out something with Lion. One poster said Lion made it impossible for them to help Crab. The reverse is equally true: Crab made it impossible for Lion to help Crab. This is obviously convenient for Lion because Lion wants troops ready to fight Crane and Unicorn. Could this also be convenient for Crab? Yes, they can claim the really need help from Emperor since "no Great Clans will help" (yeah right).

Now again consider that every way that the Emperor might help Crab would hurt Crane. If Crab doesn't really need help then it looks like their real goal is just hurting Crane. This is what I believe Kakita Yoshi is implying in the story. This analysis does not require that Crab and Mantis actively collude.

Separately , there is the issue of how this situation could turn into Crab/Mantis collusion. Crab are highest bidders for jade. It makes sense that Mantis would sell looted Crane jade to the highest bidder. Crab would then, as the end customer of Mantis piracy, be financing Mantis raids on the Crane coasts. This is not suggested in the story. It's just a thing that Kakita Yoshi could reasonably conclude - because it is a reasonable conclusion!

In fact, it becomes a reality (although I doubt Yoshi has any inkling of what price Yoritomo actually wants to charge Crab).

29 minutes ago, Manchu said:

There's the refutation of the "shamed the Emperor" argument. Yet again you mischaracterize/fail to understand my argument. Separately, Kakita Yoshi suspects that Crab wants to weaken Crane.

Where are you drawing this insistence that Yoshi is paranoid the Crab are looking to act against the Crane. Yes he uses the Mantis as his excuse but there has been no hint anywhere prior to this that there was any sense of hostility between the Crab and Crane, but you know what there sure as heck is going to be now. Taka approached this situation as a negotiation. He stated his needs and at every attempt to open negotiates Yoshi shut him down. The end of the line is alright you won't even discuss any of our needs how about we at least try to negotiate for the only material that can prevent the slow corruption and death that my people face everyday, nope I have the weigh the value of your peoples lives against the needs of the other clans to make pretty baubles. He is literally saying the Crab's lives are not worth him making even a token effort to appear to be considering the request. I think Taka summed it up well at that point. The Emperor doesn't care about me any my people or the sacrifices we are making everyday for them, duty is the most important tenant of Bushido to the Crab, to fail in that is to fail as a samurai. The Emperor through his representative has just said f-you and your duty it means nothing. We sacrifice out lives so that you can live your happy lives with your petty inter-clan squabbles and when we come to you in a time of desperation you slam the door in our face. That in the eyes of the Crab is weakness, failure to fulfill your duty as our liege to ensure we have the tools to do our job protecting you. Using the fear of the Mantis to explain why the Emperor (again he's speaking for the Emperor not the Crane in this negotiation) is showing weakness. You're right the negotiations were doomed from the start but all Yoshi did was ensure that the Crab will take the failed negotiation in the worst light possible.

I agree that Crab think they are underappreciated and that everyone underestimates the threat of the Shadowlands.

And they say that all the time. But for a long, long time now, there has been no crisis to validate Crab. Yet Crab keep lecturing everyone about it whenever thye need (want) anything. Unsurprisingly, everyone starts to take Crab less seriously. And when a real threat emerges, it's "boy who cried wolf" time.

Even worse

• supplies Crab needs are scarce (it's not just that other clans aren't giving them)
• Crab is too stiff-necked to work out something with other clans
• threat of Shadowlands is so obvious to Crab, they don't bother explaining why they aren't the boy who cried wolf
• even if they tried to explain, they have lost influence at court because they don't care enough about such "silly" things like politics

Yeah it's a recipe for diaster, no question.

24 minutes ago, Manchu said:

@shosuko

Mantis pirates are looting Crane coasts for valuables, including weapons and jade, while Crane is under pressure from Lion. Crab says they desperately need aid but turn down Lion. Crab also demands aid from the Emperor. Each possible way of aiding Crab would create additional risk for Crane (especially via Mantis). These are just the facts.

On the face of the facts, from Kakita Yoshi's POV , it appears Crab doesn't need aid badly enough to work out something with Lion. One poster said Lion made it impossible for them to help Crab. The reverse is equally true: Crab made it impossible for Lion to help Crab. This is obviously convenient for Lion because Lion wants troops ready to fight Crane and Unicorn. Could this also be convenient for Crab? Yes, they can claim the really need help from Emperor since "no Great Clans will help" (yeah right).

Now again consider that every way that the Emperor might help Crab would hurt Crane. If Crab doesn't really need help then it looks like their real goal is just hurting Crane. This is what I believe Kakita Yoshi is implying in the story. This analysis does not require that Crab and Mantis actively collude.

Separately , there is the issue of how this situation could turn into Crab/Mantis collusion. Crab are highest bidders for jade. It makes sense that Mantis would sell looted Crane jade to the highest bidder. Crab would then, as the end customer of Mantis piracy, be financing Mantis raids on the Crane coasts. This is not suggested in the story. It's just a thing that Kakita Yoshi could reasonably conclude - because it is a reasonable conclusion!

In fact, it becomes a reality (although I doubt Yoshi has any inkling of what price Yoritomo actually wants to charge Crab).

Your right Mantis are a threat to Crane lands,but rather than trying to work out a deal with a potential ally guess I'll just insult him instead. You keep asserting that Yoshi sees this as a risk to the Crane and that he thinks the Crab could be working an angle against them. How is the overland route a risk. Yes the Crab will be the most likely buyer for Jade, but its not like the Mantis are out searching for every bit of Jade the Crane have. At best to they are scooping up everything they can on their raids and it just so happens that some of that is jade. Its not like the Shadowlands are a distant memory for the Clans like the White walkers are in Game of Thrones. The Phoenix have studied it, the Shugenja are well aware of the effects it can have on the elemental spirits, attacks on the wall are a regular occurrence and the forces of the Shadowlands are not human Wildlings they are Goblins, Ogres and other monsters from **** itself.

As for the Lion request it was a non-starter, no Clan is going to let anyone walk into the middle of their lands and take control of the single most important duty that they have. The Lion are brilliant tacticians in conventional warfare. Unfortunately the Shadowlands isn't conventional warfare, Crabs spend their entire lives learning how to fight the madness of a place where everything is out to get you. Go re-read Spookies Halloween fiction, everything in the Shadowlands wants you dead, even the trees may try to kill you. This is a war where one misstep doesn't just mean a set back that you have to recover from it could mean a horde of Oni rampaging into the heart of the empire. You need to be prepared to deal with what ever the Shadowlands throws at you, it could be what appears to be your closest ally being attacked by monsters, oops nope that was a shapeshifter and you just walked into his trap, well your dead and now two of you have been replaced wonder who we can get next. The Wall is everything to the Crab and there is no way they would ever consider letting anyone take control over a section of it for any reason, it would be tantamount to saying they aren't good enough to guard it themselves. That's like a Lion saying Akodo was a moron who couldn't lead his way out a wet paper bag or crane saying Lady Doji was a horrid witch whose only interest was primping and fawning over the Emperor. Its spitting on a lifetime of sacrifice and giving up on your duty because it would be easy.

25 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I agree that Crab think they are underappreciated and that everyone underestimates the threat of the Shadowlands.

And they say that all the time. But for a long, long time now, there has been no crisis to validate the Crab. Yet the Crab keep lecturing everyone about it whenever thye need (want) anything. Unsurprisingly, everyone starts to take the Crab less seriously. And when a real threat emerges, it's "boy who cried wolf" time.

Yeah it's a recipe for diaster, no question.

The wall is a constant reminder of the Shadowlands, its not some distant thing forgotten by everyone its a physical reminder and the living hellscape on the other side is very real. It hasn't been quiet for hundreds of years with only occasional human raiders slipping thorugh to attack. The lose of the Hiruma lands was in 716 (400 years) the construction of the current wall was the same year. The entire empire was called onto help the Crab construct it. Everyone saw the threat it was protecting them from. The wall is under constant attack, the Crab fight off various sized armies on near daily basis. The Clans take the sacrifice for granted but they also don't pretend the threat doesn't exist.

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

@shosuko

Mantis pirates are looting Crane coasts for valuables, including weapons and jade, while Crane is under pressure from Lion. Crab says they desperately need aid but turn down Lion. Crab also demands aid from the Emperor. Each possible way of aiding Crab would create additional risk for Crane (especially via Mantis). These are just the facts.

On the face of the facts, from Kakita Yoshi's POV , it appears Crab doesn't need aid badly enough to work out something with Lion. One poster said Lion made it impossible for them to help Crab. The reverse is equally true: Crab made it impossible for Lion to help Crab. This is obviously convenient for Lion because Lion wants troops ready to fight Crane and Unicorn. Could this also be convenient for Crab? Yes, they can claim the really need help from Emperor since "no Great Clans will help" (yeah right).

Now again consider that every way that the Emperor might help Crab would hurt Crane. If Crab doesn't really need help then it looks like their real goal is just hurting Crane. This is what I believe Kakita Yoshi is implying in the story. This analysis does not require that Crab and Mantis actively collude.

Separately , there is the issue of how this situation could turn into Crab/Mantis collusion. Crab are highest bidders for jade. It makes sense that Mantis would sell looted Crane jade to the highest bidder. Crab would then, as the end customer of Mantis piracy, be financing Mantis raids on the Crane coasts. This is not suggested in the story. It's just a thing that Kakita Yoshi could reasonably conclude - because it is a reasonable conclusion!

In fact, it becomes a reality (although I doubt Yoshi has any inkling of what price Yoritomo actually wants to charge Crab).

I already asked in another thread about why the Crab may have turned down both Lion and Scorpion offers for troops. I've seen some interesting thoughts there that validate the Crab position. I've yet to see much that validates the other clan's positions, but I'm willing to listen - in that thread - for those reasons.

I don't see Yoshi making any accusatory remarks towards Taka except that the Crab turned down Lion support inferring that the Crab were not sincere in their requests. This, and the fact that Yoshi's job was to say no, are reasonable explanation for most of the conversation. I don't see any allusion to a Crab + Mantis conspiracy, or that Yoshi blames the Crab for the Mantis raids.

There doesn't seem to be any indication that Yoshi sees any problems beyond him having to take a few minutes to tell Taka "no." I don't think he is even being overly protective of the Crane's resources as much as he is formulating a refusal. The Emperor's jade isn't the Crane's jade, the Emperor's troops aren't the Crane's troops. Yoshi isn't refusing any assistance from the Crane, that would be Hotaru's job, he is refusing support from the Emperor.

Its actually shown that Yoshi has a strong since of will separating his clan affiliation from his Imperial obligations. The recent story where he gives the Unicorn the first chance to appeal to the Emperor relates to us his opinion that even though this is a member of his clan he would typically press for a favor for the Imperial court to actually consider such a request. It isn't even the fact that the Lion are getting screwed out of first appeal either, its just that the Lion who requested to be first was doing so without offering anything either, and he was very rude about it.

Some of the thoughts in this thread about Yoshi appear to conflate his responsibilities as the Imperial Chancellor with representing the Crane clan. This isn't the Crane's jade, troops, or weapons Taka is requesting - and it isn't the Crane's jade, troops, or weapons that are being denied.

37 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I agree that Crab think they are underappreciated and that everyone underestimates the threat of the Shadowlands.

And they say that all the time. But for a long, long time now, there has been no crisis to validate Crab. Yet Crab keep lecturing everyone about it whenever thye need (want) anything. Unsurprisingly, everyone starts to take Crab less seriously. And when a real threat emerges, it's "boy who cried wolf" time.

Even worse

• supplies Crab needs are scarce (it's not just that other clans aren't giving them)
• Crab is too stiff-necked to work out something with other clans
• threat of Shadowlands is so obvious to Crab, they don't bother explaining why they aren't the boy who cried wolf
• even if they tried to explain, they have lost influence at court because they don't care enough about such "silly" things like politics

Yeah it's a recipe for diaster, no question.

Yoshi was tasked to tell the Crab they weren't getting any toys (I won't get into the legitimacy of the reason for it) he made the conscious choice to be as rude as possible in doing it. He starts the insults with Taka, he stonewalls every advance that Taka makes and when Taka calls him on it he dismisses him.

3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I already asked in another thread about why the Crab may have turned down both Lion and Scorpion offers for troops. I've seen some interesting thoughts there that validate the Crab position. I've yet to see much that validates the other clan's positions, but I'm willing to listen - in that thread - for those reasons.

I don't see Yoshi making any accusatory remarks towards Taka except that the Crab turned down Lion support inferring that the Crab were not sincere in their requests. This, and the fact that Yoshi's job was to say no, are reasonable explanation for most of the conversation. I don't see any allusion to a Crab + Mantis conspiracy, or that Yoshi blames the Crab for the Mantis raids.

There doesn't seem to be any indication that Yoshi sees any problems beyond him having to take a few minutes to tell Taka now. I don't think he is even being overly protective of the Crane's resources as much as he is formulating a refusal. The Emperor's jade isn't the Crane's jade, the Emperor's troops aren't the Crane's troops. Yoshi isn't refusing any assistance from the Crane, that would be Hotaru's job, he is refusing support from the Emperor.

Its actually shown that Yoshi has a strong since of will separating his clan affiliation from his Imperial obligations. The recent story where he gives the Unicorn the first chance to appeal to the Emperor relates to us his opinion that even though this is a member of his clan he would typically press for a favor for the Imperial court to actually consider such a request. It isn't even the fact that the Lion are getting screwed out of first appeal either, its just that the Lion who requested to be first was doing so without offering anything either, and he was very rude about it.

Some of the thoughts in this thread about Yoshi appear to conflate his responsibilities as the Imperial Chancellor with representing the Crane clan. This isn't the Crane's jade, troops, or weapons he is requesting - and it isn't the Crane's jade, troops, or weapons that are being denied.

And yet every excuse he gives is in light of how fulfilling these requests will potentially injure the Crane.

@shosuko Nothing in the post of mine that you quoted conflates Crane resources with Imperial resources.

I agree that Crab has a good reason to want full command of Lion and Scorpion troops on the wall. But they obviously failed to convince both Lion and Scorpion. Crab is the common denominator there. People in this thread have gone on at length about why a desperate clan should make great efforts to secure aid. Please apply that standard to the Crab - including Taka's lackluster, ***-for-tat performance in front of the Imperial Chancellor.

EDIT: hilarious censorship

5 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

And yet every excuse he gives is in light of how fulfilling these requests will potentially injure the Crane.

That's the point.

27 minutes ago, Schmoozies said:

That's like a Lion saying Akodo was a moron who couldn't lead his way out a wet paper bag or crane saying Lady Doji was a horrid witch whose only interest was primping and fawning over the Emperor.

Unfortunately, that is exactly the kind of implication non-Crab hear when Crab start lecturing them about the Wall. Kakita Yoshi obliquely makes this point to Yasuki Taka on two occasions, first regarding the Lion offer of aid and second regarding the requisitioning of jade.

12 minutes ago, Manchu said:

@shosuko Nothing in the post of mine that you quoted conflates Crane resources with Imperial resources.

I agree that Crab has a good reason to want full command of Lion and Scorpion troops on the wall. But they obviously failed to convince both Lion and Scorpion. Crab is the common denominator there. People in this thread have gone on at length about why a desperate clan should make great efforts to secure aid. Please apply that standard to the Crab - including Taka's lackluster, ***-for-tat performance in front of the Imperial Chancellor.

EDIT: hilarious censorship

I think the idea that Yoshi is suspicious of any Crab + Mantis alliance, and the implications that Mantis raids on Crane land as why Yoshi couldn't give Jade, or may want to refuse to give Jade is forgetting that Yoshi is representing the Emperor here.

6 minutes ago, Manchu said:

That's the point.

Nope the point is that Yoshi did it in the worst way he possibly could.

1 minute ago, Manchu said:

Unfortunately, that is exactly the kind of implication non-Crab hear when Crab start lecturing them about the Wall. Kakita Yoshi obliquely makes this point to Yasuki Taka on two occasions, first regarding the Lion offer of aid and second regarding the requisitioning of jade.

No the Crab have seen what happens when they let others deal with the Shadowlands. Moto Tsume lead an army south of the Wall and only a handful returned, and they were forever scared by the experience. The last time they let a Lion deal with the Shadowlands on his own it resulted in a Lion army marching on Crab lands claiming they had betrayed him and threatening to attack the Crab if they didn't produce him right away. The only way they could be appeased was by the Champion marching into the Shadowlands to recover his body and when he found him injured and near death but still insistent on continuing his hopeless mission he had to stay with him for three more days fighting off a horde of monsters before he could finally drag his near lifeless body back to the Crab, and he died shortly after himself from his injuries in rescuing the fool. Read it yourself if you don't believe me. The Crab have learned from bitter experience that trusting other clans to defend the wall is a recipe for disaster.

http://l5r.wikia.com/wiki/Matsu_Itagi

13 minutes ago, shosuko said:

I think the idea that Yoshi is suspicious of any Crab + Mantis alliance, and the implications that Mantis raids on Crane land as why Yoshi couldn't give Jade, or may want to refuse to give Jade is forgetting that Yoshi is representing the Emperor here.

That is incorrect because where the jade came from is irrelevant to it being captured by pirates terrorizing Crane lands.

You don't need to remind me of Matsu Itagi. We're not talking about whether the Crab are right; we're talking about how they tend to alienate other clans.

4 minutes ago, Manchu said:

You don't need to remind me of Matsu Itagi. We're not talking about whether the Crab are right; we're talking about how they tend to alienate other clans.

Actually we were talking about why they would refuse the aid of either the Lion or Scorpion and how its part of some meta plot only you can see that Yoshi is working to head off by the Crab against the Crane. Crab have long memories when it comes to the Shadowlands and they never like to repeat a mistake. They spend their entire lives learning to defend the Empire from the Shadowlands, anyone else who hasn't made the same sacrifices they have to prepare for the wall isn't safe to leave guarding it alone. We know the rest of the Empire views them as crude and disregards their sacrifice but that is irrelevant to this situation. None of that excuse the fact that Yoshi was making himself out to be a fool in his handling of Taka and the Crab request.

So which is it, only the Crab know the true peril of the Shadowlands or Kakita Yoshi should also know?

2 minutes ago, Manchu said:

So which is it, only the Crab know the true peril of the Shadowlands or Kakita Yoshi should also know?

Only the Crab can be trusted to defend the wall. Doesn't speak anything towards the ability to recognize the role in protecting the Empire. And still doesn't excuse Yoshi behaving like an ***.

Huh... can't remember the last time I skimmed so many pages of comments. Oh wait, I think it was that time someone decided curved swords vs. straight swords was worth arguing over...

31 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Huh... can't remember the last time I skimmed so many pages of comments. Oh wait, I think it was that time someone decided curved swords vs. straight swords was worth arguing over...

I don't get why people have not figured out they are being trolled yet.

49 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Huh... can't remember the last time I skimmed so many pages of comments. Oh wait, I think it was that time someone decided curved swords vs. straight swords was worth arguing over...

I was thinking the same thing.

Came to the thread to see if the new posts were anything interesting, instead found 3 pages of arguments going in circles without actually adding anything new.

2 hours ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

Huh... can't remember the last time I skimmed so many pages of comments. Oh wait, I think it was that time someone decided curved swords vs. straight swords was worth arguing over...

We're no where near as impressive as that thread. That thread is over 21 and drinking now, we're not even in middle school...

@Manchu , I've gone to the trouble of copying the entire conversation between Taka and Yoshi. Could you please point out where you draw your conclusion that Yoshi isn't just pointlessly antagonizing the Crab from?

Quote

Taka straightened looking into the icy blue eyes of Kakita Yoshi, daimyō of one of the great families of the Crane Clan, whose smile never rode north of his nose. “Imperial Chancellor,” Taka said, infusing his voice with a casual kindness as warm as Yoshi’s smile and just as sincere . “I would be pleased to speak with you about this most pressing matter.”

Ok, so we've established that these two men do not like each other, fair enough.

Quote

“Of course,” Yoshi replied, his voice almost a purr. “I apologize for His Majesty’s absence, but he had other—sudden—business to attend to, and I did not want you to put on your very finest for nothing.” He unfolded his fan—which, Taka noticed suddenly, was not his usual accessory of silk and sandalwood, but a tessen made of pure silver—and its angled edges glittered as the Crane courtier gestured at Taka’s formal outfit. “It is very striking, indeed. Such fine silk.”

Taka inclined his head in thanks. “I am grateful for such praise. Unfortunately it is not as elegant as the instruments in this room. Why, I could hardly see you behind that zither! Do you play, or just admire?”

”I am afraid I lack the leisure time to do more than appreciate instruments.” Yoshi sighed dramatically. “But perhaps you do? Not the zither, but possibly the mouth harp? It has such an amusing sound .”

“I find the best use of my mouth is to bargain with it.” Taka’s laugh was smooth and hollow as a blown egg. “May we begin?”

Aaand here Yoshi begins with the insults and condescencion, implying that playing such an instrument would be beyond his ability, and that he'd have to settle for a peasants instrument.

Quote

The Imperial Chancellor assented and the men seated themselves, skirmishing with gestures as they did so. Yoshi fluttered his tessen absently as he gestured delicately with the other hand. “Now. What can the powers of the Imperial Court do for you?”

“Of course you know of the Crab Clan’s requests. Honored chancellor,” Taka began. “It is common knowledge within the court that the situation along the Kaiu Wall is dire. The attacks from the Shadowlands grow in size, frequency, and ferocity by the day.”

“But of course,” Yoshi murmured, his deep voice serious. “And the court weeps at your troubles. But surely you know of the difficulties inherent in fielding troops to support the Crab?” The fan snapped shut, and Yoshi tapped the air. “First, traveling by sea is not an option. If the cost of sending so many ships were not already a burden on the Imperial Treasury , surely the vessels would be a tempting target for the vile pirates that name themselves the Mantis Clan. Their leader, Yoritomo—may his name be curse!—has a vicious streak as deep as the scar on his ugly face. W ere but a single Mantis craft to see those ships, they would be as good as doomed !”

And here, we see Yoshi make two arguments, one valid, and one that makes the Emperor look weak, suggesting that the Imperial Legions couldn't fend off a band of pirates.

Quote

Taka employed a knowing nod. “Of course. The depredations of the Mantis are well-known. Perhaps such a force could travel on land instead? The way would be long, but the need of the Crab is quite great.”

Again came that smile, accompanied by frozen blue eyes. “ Ah, but what peoples would not be upset at the sight of an army marching through their lands? Peasants are so easily frightened. How could I put my people through the anxiety of seeing an army marching south along Crane roads, into Crab territory ?”

And here he denies the option of sending them by land, because it might upset the heimin .

Quote

“Our clans have not warred for hundreds of years, honored Chancellor,” Taka pointed out gently. “And Crane roads are not the only path to the south. There exists routes through Lion lands as well.”

Yoshi tilted his head sympathetically, his fan tapping his chin. “Forgive my memory, Yasuki-dono, but has the Lion Clan not already offered the Crab their help and been refused?”

Taka eased out a tense breath. “ This is so, Chancellor, but the terms the Lion gave were impossible for the Crab. They required full control over where their troops would be placed—all respect to the Lion generals, but combat along the Kaiu Wall and against the horrors of the Shadowlands is something with which they have no experience— “

The tessen waved as if brushing away the protests. “ And you imply they could not be bothered to learn? Alas, such pickiness makes me wonder if the Crab’s need truly is as great as you say .”

Rudely interrupting the man trying to explain why sending unprepared troops, unsupervised troops onto the Wall might be a bad idea. Yes, they could learn, but until they do...

And then he dismisses the Crab's request for more troops, without even hearing the Crab's argument for why the couldn't let the Lion retain autonomy while defending the Wall.

Quote

The already-dim room seemed to grow incrementally darker, and Taka spread his hands genially, as if to ward against it. “Let us speak of jade and weapons, then, and free ourselves of the idea of hands to wield them. Such a shipment could easily be taken from Otosan Uchi to Kyūden Hida, far more quickly and with less chance of attracting the Mantis.”

Yoshi gave a pained sigh. “ Alas, but the coasts are largely the province of the Crane and would be the soonest hit if such a plan failed, and such weapons fell into Yoritomo’s hands. The Crab may be short their equipment, but my own people would find themselves beset by a scourge made even stronger !” The Chancellor’s tone tightened. “ I must protect them from the Mantis pirates—or anyone else who might come to own such weapons, for that matter .”

Taka’s smile grew warmer, as if seeking to melt the opposition. “ There is the possibility of the overland route —“

“ Do you not recall my opposition to the march of an army ?”

“They could walk more casually, if you like.”

So now we can't send supplies either, because again, the Mantis might steal them (or the Crab might, or the Lion, or the Perfect Land, or anyone else), or it might upset the peasants.

The "walk more casually" line isn't helping Taka here, I admit, but seriously? If the Crane's peasants are this sensitive, I'm surprised they haven't all fled the Crane lands because the Lion are invading.

Quote

The moment fell, and Yoshi’s smile flattened humorlessly. “Is there anything else, Yasuki-dono?”

Taka clasped his hands and glanced down, as if holding a run of cards. “If weapons are too dangerous, then let us discuss jade. The Crab’s supplies are running perilously low, and without it, our troops are vulnerable to the hideous Taint of the Shadowlands. It is enough of a burden fighting it outside the Kaiu Wall: we would not see it inflict its agony and madness within as well.”

“Indeed not!” exclaimed Yoshi, fluttering his tessen to highlight his shock. “ But you must understand that as the Chancellor, I must follow the laws as they have been set. The jade that been mined by each clan is meant for them , first and foremost .”

“Surely the need of the Crab—“

“Is pressing, indeed!” Yoshi’s sonorous voice was a practiced display of sympathy. “ But does the Crab truly know of the needs of the other clans, needs which I must hear and address ? With each tale, my heart cracks—but I must be as stone and remain resolute, firm, and unbreakable.”

Anyone else notice how the "needs of the other Clans" are just as pressing as the Crabs Clans, and yet he doesn't tell us what they are doing with their jade? The Crab needs jade to ward against the Taint that the Shadowlands spread; what does the Crane need theirs for that's so pressing?

Quote

Taka’s laugh was touched with bitterness. “The Kaiu Wall is made from stone, Chancellor. I wish it were as unbreakable as your will, but it seems we are not so lucky.”

Yoshi smirked slightly, resting his fan against his cheek. “I am of the unpopular opinion that there is no such thing as luck, merely the actions of humanity, or the favor of the gods—the intent of one or the other. All else is coincidence, as in nature.” He close his eyes dramatically. “ A lone cherry falls, a golden koi swims in circles —“

“ An ox voids its bowels ,” Taka finished, and hid his chuckle as Yoshi’s eyes popped open. “Forgive me, Chancellor. As I said, negotiation is my gift, not music or poetry. And though one cannot buy anything while the store is closed, I owed it to my clan to try all the same.” He stood, and bowed low. “With your leave, Kakita-dono, I shall depart.”

“How… rustic .” Yoshi chuckled airlessly, and waved his tessen at the door. “It was a pleasure, Yasuki-dono. You may go.”

Yeah, at this point I'd call the Chancellor on his excuses too.

First, the mouth harp comment - I take that as a "I'm on to you" comment. Yasuki Taka acts like a simple man to disarm people in negotiations. Even in this story, there is an example of him doing so when attacked by bandits. Kakita Yoshi is not going to be fooled by Taka's "simple man" act. From the start, what you claim is pointless antagonization actually has a serious purpose.

Second, I've gone over the other points in the conversation exhaustively and I know you've been following this thread all along.