9 hours ago, Manchu said:

But you keep making it about you; or, more specifically, about your hatred for this character. I mean, we - specifically you and I - have gone over this ground already, in depth. To summarize - me: "Look at things from Kakita Yoshi's POV." then you: "No, he's just a fool."

Just for the record, I, and every friend of mine who has read the fiction, also think that Kakita Yoshi is a fool. Even our Crane player thinks that.

I mean, just so you can throw us in the lot with Shiba Gunichi.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

...

Y'know, for all that ol' Manchu and I bicker about what the story was trying to convey...

I think the first fiction that you're so hard on wasn't trying to do what you seem to think it failed to do. It wasn't really meant to advance the plot much, it was meant to set the stage.

"This is Yasuki Taka, a character new players will know absolutely nothing about, let's meet him, shall we?" It wasn't a "bland build-up to a Yoritomo reveal," it was a Taka debut fiction framing both his personality and the desperate state of mind he would be in by the time Yoritomo made his offer- the Crab's perpetual need for supplies is old hat to setting veterans, but it's not something a new player would be conversant with. The second fiction, which even you seem more fond of, would mean less without it.

Except - as I stated in my initial review of this story - I don't think it even did that. Yoshi and Taka both failed to actually convey much about their personalities. It was bland, and more akin to exposition then story telling.

1 hour ago, llamaman88 said:

Scrutinize away. Just maybe realize the authors of some of these fictions are regulars on the forums here and don't need to be eviscerated simply because you didn't like their story.

And don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say it was high quality or valuable just because they exerted effort. I said it was uncalled for and unfair to the subject at hand.

I meant you don't need to be mean about the work another person is very likely proud of, when the argument you were jumping into was about the motives behind characters inferred by readers with differing opinions.

Uncalled for? This is a forum for discussing L5R LCG including narrative releases. We call out cards for being poorly designed, and do we care about the designer's feelings? NO. Sometimes we're right, sometimes we're wrong - but it is our right to be critical. If the author or designer can't handle criticism they are in the wrong line of work. I don't think my criticism is unwarranted or off base. The story was bland and uninteresting, it didn't sell me on who these people were or what they were doing, it simply told me. Even the metaphor of Yoshi taking the warfan to this meeting doesn't end up meaning much. It gets repetitive between the two as their back and forth is more a droning repetition than an inspired back and forth dialogue.

We don't learn that Taka is a great negotiator, nor do we learn that Yoshi is a great politician. Go back and re-read it, show me the part where their personalities are made evident through their actions. This story doesn't introduce Taka or Yoshi - it sets the stage for the Yoritomo reveal, which finally brings some light to the story.

It may not even be the artists fault, as the first part may have been stretched out and made dull to fit FFG's requests as a 2 part. Whatever the author feels is unknown, but having just re-read both fictions while writing this reply I can say that the difference in quality from the first, and second in selling the story is noticeable.

18 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

"My forces will attack you immediately prior to your final throwdown with the forces of Jigoku" is aid and succor.

In the current storyline, the Lion and Unicorn are fighting, and the Crane and Lion are fighting. But that doesn't mean that the Crane giving aid to the Unicorn. They're each advancing their own goals, which both happen to involve fighting the Lion. Just like Yoritomo wasn't fighting side-by-side with Yogo Junzo--he was actively fighting against his army. If it was a coordinated assault between the two armies, then I would agree that he was granting aid to Jigoku. But the hypothetical fight that didn't even happen would have simply been Yoritomo's Alliance vs. the great clans, not Yoritomo's Alliance and Junzo's Army against the great clans.

1 hour ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

In the current storyline, the Lion and Unicorn are fighting, and the Crane and Lion are fighting. But that doesn't mean that the Crane giving aid to the Unicorn. They're each advancing their own goals, which both happen to involve fighting the Lion. Just like Yoritomo wasn't fighting side-by-side with Yogo Junzo--he was actively fighting against his army. If it was a coordinated assault between the two armies, then I would agree that he was granting aid to Jigoku. But the hypothetical fight that didn't even happen would have simply been Yoritomo's Alliance vs. the great clans, not Yoritomo's Alliance and Junzo's Army against the great clans.

Timing is everything.

It would have been Yoritomo's Alliance attacking the forces of united Rokugan immediately prior to their showdown with Fu Leng's forces. If you think Yogo Junzo wouldn't have capitalized upon that, you're... drawing a large margin on my credulity.

Once again. Aid and succor.

4 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Timing is everything.

It would have been Yoritomo's Alliance attacking the forces of united Rokugan immediately prior to their showdown with Fu Leng's forces. If you think Yogo Junzo wouldn't have capitalized upon that, you're... drawing a large margin on my credulity.

Once again. Aid and succor.

Also, there is no presumption that the Crane and the Unicorn are or should be enemies. Analogizing to wars between the clans requires treating the Shadowlands and the forces of Jigoku as just another faction, rather than as the enemies of the entire Empire and Tengoku itself.

4 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Timing is everything.

It would have been Yoritomo's Alliance attacking the forces of united Rokugan immediately prior to their showdown with Fu Leng's forces. If you think Yogo Junzo wouldn't have capitalized upon that, you're... drawing a large margin on my credulity.

Once again. Aid and succor.

Except that the bulk of the fighting was done, Yoritomo and his forces had routed the Shadowlands reinforcements and the Clan armies had secured the lands around the Capital. All that remained was the assault on the Capital and the duel with Fu Leng. Yoritomo's challenge would have made the fight more difficult for sure but the Clans were already well ahead in the battle and were still likely to win. And in fairness his actions were well in keeping with his own ambition and the history of the clan, after all the way we achieved Minor Status was by our champion pulling a knife on the Emperor, he gave his life for the temerity of it, but still proved his point and earned the clan the right to be recognized as a minor clan.

Yasuki Taka is a fool.

He makes the Crab Clan look weak not just in front of the Kakita daimyo - who is already suspicious of the Crab - but indeed also in front of the entire Empire by begging for reinforcements, weapons, and jade in the capital. Worse still, his inability to offer anything in trade for these items, neither in terms of material support in kind nor even political support, shows that the Crab have nothing to offer. They're just paupers desperately panhandling on the corner of the Empire.

He also makes the Crab look stupid. He provides no explanation of why his pitifully weak and desperate clan requires succor from the Empire. Things are bad at the Carpenter Wall but Yasuki Taka makes not even the first attempt to explain that to someone who would have no reason to understand it except that a Crab emissary would explain it to them. Yasuki Taka can't be bothered, foolishly. And this makes a fool of the Crab more generally, making it seem like they don't know how to do anything but make demands.

Furthermore, he is rude to a the Imperial Chancellor who is also the Kakita daimyo, his social superior and a powerful figure in the administrative structure of the Crab's nearest neighbor. His clownish peasant act is absolutely inappropriate for a meeting with the refined chancellor. The Crab are weak right now, having snubbed the Lion. The power of the Shadowlands waxes while the Crab's resources wane. And yet Yasuki Taka makes unilateral demands of the Imperial Chancellor, offers weak excuses as to why the Crab refuse to negotiate with the Lion, and doesn't even talk about the threat across the Wall. Meanwhile, relations with the Crane are poor - this would have been a great opportunity to repair relations with them but Yasuki Taka's severe incompetence, rudeness, and general bumbling create the opposite effect - confirming Kakita Yoshi's preexisting suspicions of his traitorous family and the Crab at large.

As you can see, this is a completely objective analysis of Yasuki Taka's foolish behavior and a completely objective analysis of the terrible position and weakness of the Crab Clan, which Yasuki Taka not only leaks to the Imperial Court, where the Crab already have very little influence, but which Yasuki Taka further exacerbates by his petty remarks and terrible negotiating skills.

If anyone accused me of just not liking Yasuki Taka or the Crab, they would be way off base.

Yasuki Taka is clearly a fool.

But thankfully, the noble, wise, and all around wonderful guy Yoritomo will rescue this fool and the Crab.

There's nothing wrong with explaining why you think a story is bad.

However, I think A Difference Of Lanterns is a great story precisely because of the subtle battle between Kakita Yoshi and Yasuki Taka.

9 hours ago, Soshi Nimue said:

Go back and re-read it, show me the part where their personalities are made evident through their actions.

We learn a ton about both characters.

Yasuki Taka is not altogether comfortable in the Imperial Court. He's a practical man more at home among peasants and ronin than other samurai, especially stuffy courtiers. He analyzes each moment in terms of what kind of deal is possible and how to make the deal. The story characterizes him this way in terms of his opinion about his court clothing, his memories of getting out of trouble with bandits, and his reflections on his meeting with the Imperial Chancellor.

Kakita Yoshi, meanwhile, sees diplomacy as a form of war. We know this because he carries a war fan rather than a paper or silk one into the meeting. While Yasuki Taka attempts to drive forward with Crab demands, Kakita Yoshi outflanks him, pointing out issues that undermine the Crab petition and probe about Crane suspicions.

On 11/28/2017 at 0:37 PM, Kinzen said:

Yyyyeah . . . still not a fan. Being willing to sacrifice the lives and souls of hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, of people for your own ambition does not make me admire a guy.

So you don't like the Emperors of Rokugan. Got it.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

Yasuki Taka is a fool.

He's certainly not as sharp as he thinks he is. Witness how flustered he allowed himself to get in his talk with Yoritomo.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

He makes the Crab Clan look weak not just in front of the Kakita daimyo - who is already suspicious of the Crab - but indeed also in front of the entire Empire by begging for reinforcements, weapons, and jade in the capital. Worse still, his inability to offer anything in trade for these items, neither in terms of material support in kind nor even political support, shows that the Crab have nothing to offer. They're just paupers desperately panhandling on the corner of the Empire.

That most definitely isn't a position of strength... which is why he brought it to his superior, rather to an equal. His petition was to his liege, not to a fellow clan. And who is a samurai supposed to ask for the resources to do his duty if not his liege? Yoshi made the liege look weak to the vassal. A key difference which I can forgive you for missing, since you seem hilariously caught up in your defense of the Crane's designated Bad Guy.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

He also makes the Crab look stupid. He provides no explanation of why his pitifully weak and desperate clan requires succor from the Empire. Things are bad at the Carpenter Wall but Yasuki Taka makes not even the first attempt to explain that to someone who would have no reason to understand it except that a Crab emissary would explain it to them. Yasuki Taka can't be bothered, foolishly. And this makes a fool of the Crab more generally, making it seem like they don't know how to do anything but make demands.

He certainly gave up in a hurry when he saw he was talking to Kakita Yoshi. Perhaps because he knew who he was dealing with. Someone who opens the chitchat portion of the conversation by the suggestion that he "take up the mouth harp." Or maybe he was incredibly off-balance, because there is absolutely merit in your statement that "I like pretending to be a peasant" Taka was the wrong guy to send to the Imperial Court. But that's what you get when a society values his position as a daimyo over, say, a polished Yasuki who's spent his or her entire career in the Imperial Court and knows what sort of tea the Chancellor likes.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

Furthermore, he is rude to a the Imperial Chancellor who is also the Kakita daimyo, his social superior and a powerful figure in the administrative structure of the Crab's nearest neighbor. His clownish peasant act is absolutely inappropriate for a meeting with the refined chancellor. The Crab are weak right now, having snubbed the Lion. The power of the Shadowlands waxes while the Crab's resources wane. And yet Yasuki Taka makes unilateral demands of the Imperial Chancellor, offers weak excuses as to why the Crab refuse to negotiate with the Lion, and doesn't even talk about the threat across the Wall. Meanwhile, relations with the Crane are poor - this would have been a great opportunity to repair relations with them but Yasuki Taka's severe incompetence, rudeness, and general bumbling create the opposite effect - confirming Kakita Yoshi's preexisting suspicions of his traitorous family and the Crab at large.

It's sadly true that his rudeness lacks the sheen Kakita Yoshi's has. Perhaps if he'd gone to a Crane school his insults would be more refined. 'Tis a pity.

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

As you can see, this is a completely objective analysis of Yasuki Taka's foolish behavior and a completely objective analysis of the terrible position and weakness of the Crab Clan, which Yasuki Taka not only leaks to the Imperial Court, where the Crab already have very little influence, but which Yasuki Taka further exacerbates by his petty remarks and terrible negotiating skills.

A for effort, but you should leave thinly-veiled parroting of someone else's points to me. Especially since the difference here is that Taka is no worse off than when the conversation began- he has lost the good opinion of no one who held it prior to his conversation, and has worsened relations no more than they were. Yoshi (the Fool) cannot say the same. He even, in the next fiction, thinks to himself that Taka has actually been kidnapped, meaning he will be blindsided by the unfortunate fallout of the Mantis Clan's bargain with the Crab (and belying any idea that he was maybe trying to draw Yoritomo out which, no lie, would have surprised me and possibly led to a revaluation).

6 hours ago, Manchu said:

But thankfully, the noble, wise, and all around wonderful guy Yoritomo will rescue this fool and the Crab.

Heh. Uh... you can ask Coyote Walks what I think of Yoritomo. It ain't nice. He and Taka are scum that will rise to the top together.

I suggest you leave suppositions about people to fictional characters. You've proven wide of the mark on your assessment of my thought processes and the reasons for my opinions to an almost alarming degree.

To the contrary, seems like I hit the nail on the head. You object on the basis of the distinction between liege and vassal without remembering that Yasuki Taka is the vassal of Hida Kisada. Your points about Kakita Yoshi are so vastly overblown, it can't be any surprise the same hyperbole can all be turned around and applied to Yasuki Taka. Any foot can fit in a big enough shoe.

It seems to me the Imperial Chancellor obliquely indicated his suspicion that Crab may want supplies shipped through Crane lands precisely to lure Mantis raids while Crane is already distracted by Lion. Yasuki Taka missed this. Could it be a coincidence that Yoritomo then kidnaps Yasuki Taka to suggest a partnership between Crab and Mantis? Oh no, we know Kakita Yoshi is a fool, how could he possibly have anticipated, you know, exactly how the situation is unfolding?

Now imagine if Kakita Yoshi had worked out some kind of aid to Crab. Just more loot for the Crab-Mantis syndicate. I doubt either Yasuki Taka or Yoritomo would pass up on their deal. For one thing, Crab needs more supplies than the Empire (much less Crane alone) can afford to give away. Second, Yoritomo has a greater agenda. If Yoshi had done what you think he should have, then you'd have a decent argument for him being a fool.

50 minutes ago, Manchu said:

To the contrary, seems like I hit the nail on the head. You object on the basis of the distinction between liege and vassal without remembering that Yasuki Taka is the vassal of Hida Kisada.

Who sent him to beseech his liege, the Emperor. Try again.

As usual (on this single issue), you misunderstand my thought processes in what at this point appears to be a simple stubborn desire to stick to your guns- which is your prerogative, but until you actually address the material criticisms of Yoshi's actions and his blinkered folly, you're not saying anything useful to defend your perspective- you're going after the person making the argument, rather than the argument itself.

You've claimed I "hate" Yoshi because I hate the Crane- when my hatred of the Crane is metafictional and has nothing to with how they're portrayed (I actually quite like Yoshi as an antagonistic figure who's going to make things worse and worse and worse).

You claim I misunderstand Rokugani feudalism, despite the fact that so far as I can tell, you're the one who has the power hierarchy a bit confused. You seem to understand the importance of face, without grasping the ways in which Yoshi has fumbled it in front of a friggin' bumpkin.

50 minutes ago, Manchu said:

It seems to me the Imperial Chancellor obliquely indicated his suspicion that Crab may want supplies shipped through Crane lands precisely to lure Mantis raids while Crane is already distracted by Lion. Yasuki Taka missed this. Could it be a coincidence that Yoritomo then kidnaps Yasuki Taka to suggest a partnership between Crab and Mantis? Oh no, we know Kakita Yoshi is a fool, how could he possibly have anticipated, you know, exactly how the situation is unfolding?

Since he was, in fact, in his own internal thoughts shown to be caught off-guard by the kidnapping and has no idea it was the Mantis? Your desire to give him credit is based upon little more than his position, so far as you have managed to articulate it- certainly, you haven't explained why his actions would have been the best course to take under any circumstances the setting currently embraces- but the story right now seems to pivot on the fact that the authority at the core of the Empire is getting shakier by the minute. Yoshi is a blinkered fool because he kind of has to be for the plot to advance.

So.

How about addressing the argument being made, rather than simply claiming it's wrong? I have gone into detail- to the point where I'm sure this is tiresome to everyone else- about why Yoshi is a fool. You have resorted to blanket statements about what you think I actually mean, incredibly broad assumptions about potential outcomes that have no textual support, and respond, when cornered, with "that's not how it works" without actually getting specific.

You claim all I ever say is "Kakita Yoshi is a fool."

But all you have ever offered, at all byway of counterargument, is, "try to see it from Yoshi's perspective."

When I tell you that I have, and that none of his actions are at all wise, you claim I'm simply being obtuse. I assure you. I am arguing in good faith. Yoshi's actions are born of pride, exasperation, and hubris, and are not wise on any level. And they shouldn't be- he's not a pragmatist, he's a Crane so obsessed with proper form that other Crane seem to be fed up with it.

I already framed my arguments as to Kakita Yoshi's POV at the outset - they stand. You haven't really addressed them at all in repeatedly insisting that, for example, Yasuki Taka is too dumb to get that Kakita Yoshi is implicating Crab treachery against the Crane rather than impugning the strength of the Empire. This reading is so superficial and literal, which is what makes it so easy to parody: Kakita Yoshi makes the Emperor look weak just as much as Yasuki Taka makes Hida Kisada look weak. In reality, nobody thinks either is weak. It's exactly the opposite - Crab thinks the Empire can (and won't) send aid while Crane thinks Crab is crying wolf as part of a power play. As it turns out, Crane is closer to right than Crab as explained above. But even so, you keep insisting Kakita Yoshi is a fool.

Kakita Yoshi was not "caught off guard" by the kidnapping. That's just more hyperbole. Yasuki Taka was, in fact, kidnapped. The story doens't go into Kakita Yoshi's thoughts about it one way or the other.

17 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Also, there is no presumption that the Crane and the Unicorn are or should be enemies. Analogizing to wars between the clans requires treating the Shadowlands and the forces of Jigoku as just another faction, rather than as the enemies of the entire Empire and Tengoku itself.

Well, I was going to use a real-world example, but given how the Internet tends to overreact to things (like the absurd arguments about the opening chants) I figured I would save myself some headache by sticking to Rokugan. The point remains that having a common enemy does not necessarily mean the same thing as being allies.

22 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Timing is everything.

It would have been Yoritomo's Alliance attacking the forces of united Rokugan immediately prior to their showdown with Fu Leng's forces. If you think Yogo Junzo wouldn't have capitalized upon that, you're... drawing a large margin on my credulity.

Once again. Aid and succor.

I think it's pretty clear at this point that you're not going to be convinced that the motivations matter, and I'm not likely to be convinced that they don't matter, so we're just going to have to disagree.

There is a meaningful distinction to be drawn between attacking someone and aiding their enemy. You can say that Mantis attacking the Great Clans would have benefited Fu Leng but you cannot say doing so, much less threatening to do so, was the moral equivalent of Yoritomo bowing down to Fu Leng. If it was, the Champions would not have granted his request because they did so out of grudging respect for him. In this way, he basically got them to realize that he was one of them.

8 hours ago, Manchu said:

I already framed my arguments as to Kakita Yoshi's POV at the outset - they stand.

Not really, since they're as clear as mud. Your argument has been an appeal to the authority of the position of Chancellor, and a claim that he's played some clever game of implying that the Crab want to lure the Mantis into.... doing something they're already doing.

8 hours ago, Manchu said:

You haven't really addressed them at all in repeatedly insisting that, for example, Yasuki Taka is too dumb to get that Kakita Yoshi is implicating Crab treachery against the Crane rather than impugning the strength of the Empire.

...

And again , it's not that he denies the request, it's how he does it.

Your unwillingness to see how he made the Empire looks weak is, at this point, limited solely to you, so far as I can tell, so you need to unpack it for the rest of the class. There were other means of indicating that the Mantis were on his radar as a factor disrupting Imperial maritime commerce without saying outright that the Empire literally cannot protect its shipping- which is purely a matter of face, which is what makes his failure here so surprising.

Because the fact of the matter is, the Empire probably can't- the Mantis are far better sailors than other Rokugani, their ships use foreign technology, their ports don't appear to have been smacked by a tsunami to the same degree as the Crane's coast, which makes up about a third of the Rokugani mainland coastline and the bulk or non-Crab merchant shipping. The ugly truth is that the Mantis probably can seize any shipment they like, but you don't say that.

He could have pressed Taka to explain why the Yasuki merchant fleet wasn't volunteered to carry the goods when he demurred on behalf of the Empire- after all, they're not at the Wall, and if this shipment is so badly needed, they could presumably be diverted from making money for the Crab's courtier family. He could have said, "regrettably, we're busy trying to hunt those Mantis down and don't have the ships to send until their piracy is brought to heel." He could have done any number of things to pick out the Yasuki's intent. He didn't. Because he wasn't out to garner information as you seem intent upon saying, he was trying to end the meeting and remove a distasteful person from his presence.

8 hours ago, Manchu said:

This reading is so superficial and literal, which is what makes it so easy to parody: Kakita Yoshi makes the Emperor look weak just as much as Yasuki Taka makes Hida Kisada look weak. In reality, nobody thinks either is weak. It's exactly the opposite - Crab thinks the Empire can (and won't) send aid while Crane thinks Crab is crying wolf as part of a power play. As it turns out, Crane is closer to right than Crab as explained above. But even so, you keep insisting Kakita Yoshi is a fool.

*sigh*

The reading you are attempting to cling to with both hands is both textually and metatextually blind, which is what makes it impossible to take seriously without some harder evidence. Kakita Yoshi makes the Emperor (who we learn a fiction later, he doesn't really regard as much of a factor beyond the sanctity of his position) look weak when he could have made him look busy.

Taka, as servant to one of the Emperor's vassals, sent to request Imperial aid after what seems to have been a fruitless letter-writing campaign, is suggesting no weakness the Imperial Court has not already had implied. Yoshi's missteps are apparently borne of deep-seated contempt, rooted in obsession with proper form. Again, there were ways to say no without exacerbating the situation. Yoshi did not choose them.

8 hours ago, Manchu said:

Kakita Yoshi was not "caught off guard" by the kidnapping. That's just more hyperbole. Yasuki Taka was, in fact, kidnapped. The story doens't go into Kakita Yoshi's thoughts about it one way or the other.

He puts the abduction on par with the sudden death of the Lion Clan Champion, the dissolution of the Unicorn/Lion treaty, Kuwanan being attacked, and Asami being kidnapped- and while he later admits to himself that Asami's abduction wasn't exactly beyond the pale, all are presented as unwelcome, troubling variables. You cannot say he wasn't caught off-guard when he places the event in sequence with others which stand to destabilize the Empire.

So the story absolutely goes into his thoughts on the matter.

17 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Heh. Uh... you can ask Coyote Walks what I think of Yoritomo. It ain't nice. He and Taka are scum that will rise to the top together.

Character Witness #17 (me) does attest that @ Shiba Gunichi really, really, really doesn't like the AEG Yoritomo (aka Old L5R).

While I greatly admire the standing up for the Minor Clans he did in the old story, not everyone see it this way (as seen above).

@Shiba Gunichi

It appears we can agree that the most important question is whether Kakita Yoshi convinced Yasuki Taka that the Emperor and Empire are weak. The answer is clearly No. Yasuki Taka left understanding that "[t]he flame hadn't gone out here - it was never going to catch." In other words, he knew that nothing Kakita Yoshi said had anything to do with whether the Imperial Court would provide supplies to Crab; that had already been decided.

So then did Kakita Yoshi just show up to the meeting to rub it in? No, that's preposterous and (as we can now say) totally out of character. Kakita Yoshi was making a subtle accusation against Crab, that Crab wants Mantis to attack Crane. In fact, he was on to something there. He was anticipating an outcome without knowing exactly how it was coming together. But it makes sense that the Imperial Chancellor would be so politically insightful. And it was no wonder that he wanted to provoke Yasuki Taka during the meeting (which was never even about whether the Empire would provide aid to Crab) to draw him out on the subject.

Whether Yasuki Taka knew he would be kidnapped by Yoritomo or how much Kakita Yoshi knows about this, we can't say for sure right now. I would guess it was a surprise to both. But what definitely isn't surprising is that Yoritomo sought out Yasuki Taka. This is exactly why Kakita Yoshi was right to suspect that if any Crab vassal might have insight into what he suspected was a Crab-Mantis racket, it would certainly be Yasuki Taka. Again, we shouldn't be surprised that the man appointed as Imperial Chancellor should be so astute.

@Coyote Walks

I don't have a strong opinion on Yoritomo or the Mantis. I do feel like Yoritomo is presented here as parachuting in a bit too conveniently and it makes me suspicious of whether Yasuki Taka himself wanted to set up a meeting with the Son of Storms.

What I don't really like is the Age of Man. The Kolat and their aims are interesting. But it ultimately led to the whole Iweko dynasty re-assertion of Tengoku, which really felt like grasping at straws for an ultra soft reboot. All of this kicks off with Mantis demanding Great Clan status without a kami founder, which is kind of gross to me. Spider Clan is more suitable, even.

I'd like to see the Hantei dynasty survive so I am pretty excited about this Daisetsu character.

50 minutes ago, Manchu said:

So then did Kakita Yoshi just show up to the meeting to rub it in? No, that's preposterous and (as we can now say) totally out of character. Kakita Yoshi was making a subtle accusation against Crab, that Crab wants Mantis to attack Crane. In fact, he was on to something there. He was anticipating an outcome without knowing exactly how it was coming together. But it makes sense that the Imperial Chancellor would be so politically insightful. And it was no wonder that he wanted to provoke Yasuki Taka during the meeting (which was never even about whether the Empire would provide aid to Crab) to draw him out on the subject.

Whether Yasuki Taka knew he would be kidnapped by Yoritomo or how much Kakita Yoshi knows about this, we can't say for sure right now. I would guess it was a surprise to both. But what definitely isn't surprising is that Yoritomo sought out Yasuki Taka. This is exactly why Kakita Yoshi was right to suspect that if any Crab vassal might have insight into what he suspected was a Crab-Mantis racket, it would certainly be Yasuki Taka. Again, we shouldn't be surprised that the man appointed as Imperial Chancellor should be so astute.

This right here is a quite a stretch. There has been no evidence prior to this that in any way suggests there has been any sort of collusion between the Mantis and Crab, all signs from Taka's reaction to Yoritomo appearance in his apartment to his recovery on the ship when he realizes that Yoritomo put some sort of whammy on him to smuggle him out of the capital suggest that there was no pre-planning here. Further in the lead up to this the Crab have actually been for the most part neutral to the Crane so why Yoshi would immediately suspect they are behind the Mantis is beyond me. The Crab got over the whole Yasuki war thing since they achieved their objective in gaining the support of a useful vassal family with access to resources that they were lacking at the time, its the Crane (who actually kicked the Yasuki out in the first place for refusing to attack the Crab due to the respect they had for them defending the wall and protecting the rest of the Empire) who are holding the grudge on this one; to the extent that the Yasuki are unable to act as diplomats in any Crane territory despite being the primary courtiers for the Clan and the most suitable of the families.

The only reason Yoshi is there is the Emperor (by recommendation of Kackiko) instructed him to go and decline the request. He is here strictly because he was told to be there in his role as Imperial Chancellor, there was no he moved things behind the scenes so that he could feel out if the Mantis aggression against his clan is being fed by the Crab. No he is just behaving in the manner that every Crane tends to take with the Yasuki, haughty derision and disregard for the scum who betrayed their lord and when they were banished swore fealty to another clan. No sadly Yoshi is showing himself for the fool Kachiko realizes he is (why she set the whole thing in motion in the first place) by letting his arrogance get the better of him and alienate a potential ally when the Crane are sorely in need of them. And as others have said there were far better ways that Yoshi could have turned down the request of the Crab clan (which Taka is acting as representative for) to their liege lord the Emperor (who Yoshi is acting as representative for).

Please note I suggested that Kakita Yoshi suspected that Crab wants Mantis to raid Crane - not that the chancellor suspected that Crab and Mantis already have a deal. It's no stretch at all (as we know even better than Kakita Yoshi). I also didn't suggest Kakita Yoshi lined up this meeting. What I do argue is that he took the opportunity to try to draw out information about Crab intentions. There is no evidence that the meeting alienated Crab from Crane. The text provides no support for this. The most one can say is, neither party attempted to repair relations - despite both being in predicaments.

Also keep in mind that this is New L5R - we can't assume the past of this setting and its impact simply carries over one-for-one from Old L5R.

9 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Please note I suggested that Kakita Yoshi suspected that Crab wants Mantis to raid Crane - not that the chancellor suspected that Crab and Mantis already have a deal. It's no stretch at all (as we know even better than Kakita Yoshi). I also didn't suggest Kakita Yoshi lined up this meeting. What I do argue is that he took the opportunity to try to draw out information about Crab intentions. There is no evidence that the meeting alienated Crab from Crane. The text provides no support for this. The most one can say is, neither party attempted to repair relations - despite both being in predicaments.

Also keep in mind that this is New L5R - we can't assume the past of this setting and its impact simply carries over one-for-one from Old L5R.

Except we've been told that the further back you go the more likely events are to have occurred as in the previous game. In the absence of any other information it is safe to assume that the relationship over the Yasuki is true. And again you assuming that Yoshi's thought is the Crab must want the Mantis to raid Crane shores cause you know Crab are so hostile to them water birds, sorry that doesn't hold water given everything we've seen of the relations between the two being for the most part neutral to each other. If the Crane are going to suspect anyone I would expect them to be eyeing the Lion or Scorpion who are for all intents and purposes hostile to them and could not be above (I would assume its an Ikoma plot that they set in motion to give the Akodo leadership plausible deniability) using an outside source to put additional pressure on the Crane to draw resources away from the fronts they are at odds over. Nope all we are seeing is Yoshi showing he is a massive tool with a severe inferiority complex so he flexes his "muscle" where he can and tries to get one over on those he deems are below him, rather than making the smart play which is try and mollify a potential ally at court, and yes Taka as the head of one of the Crab families would be a good ally for Crane, goes with an insult to open the conversation (mouth harp) and than gives him the equivalent of the get out my sight you lowly peasant responses to all of Taka's requests to the Lord of the Empire (who Yoshi represents) so that the Crab can continue to fulfill their duty (as mandated by the first Emperor) to the Empire. Nope contort the facts and attribute as many mysterious insights to Yoshi you want but until you can supply some hard proof for any of the claims you attribute to him all I see is a Crane being a git and fulfilling the story role he's been assigned of incompetent villain/stooge whose only role is to set up future conflict (oh my god is Yoshi actually Jar Jar Binks).

You say Kakita Yoshi is a fool. But in fact he would be a fool not to try to learn information about the Crab's true intentions from Yasuki Taka.

In actuality, he is no fool and does exactly that. Why do the Crab want all this stuff? The Crab emissary doesn't explain, he just makes demands. The chancellor/daimyo packs a little accusation into dismissing each demand: oh so you want foreign troops marching through Crane lands? oh so you want juicy targets for the Mantis raiding the Crane coast? oh so you want to deprive other Clans of their jade stocks?

Oh and you're not getting along with the Lion? I see ...

I hope Kakita Yoshi's enemies in Rokugan underestimate him as much as his enemies IRL.

53 minutes ago, Manchu said:

You say Kakita Yoshi is a fool. But in fact he would be a fool not to try to learn information about the Crab's true intentions from Yasuki Taka.

In actuality, he is no fool and does exactly that. Why do the Crab want all this stuff? The Crab emissary doesn't explain, he just makes demands. The chancellor/daimyo packs a little accusation into dismissing each demand: oh so you want foreign troops marching through Crane lands? oh so you want juicy targets for the Mantis raiding the Crane coast? oh so you want to deprive other Clans of their jade stocks?

Oh and you're not getting along with the Lion? I see ...

I hope Kakita Yoshi's enemies in Rokugan underestimate him as much as his enemies IRL.

"Is there more, Bayushi-san?" the Emperor asked.

Kachiko realized silence had fallen and looked thoughtful. "Yes, Your Majesty. Yasuki Taka-dono has requested a private audience with you. He advocates for more Imperial support for the Crab Clan, to bolster their defense of the Carpenter Wall."

- Bayushi Kachiko, Blind Ambition .

"Of course you know of the Crab Clan's requests, honored chancellor," Taka began. "It is common knowledge within the Court that the situation along the Kaiu Wall is dire. The attacks from the Shadowlands grow in size, frequency, and ferocity by the day."

- Yasuki Taka, A Difference of Lanterns .

I think the reason why the Crab want supplies is pretty darn blatant.

As discussed, the Crab constantly play up their defense of the Carpenter Wall. Hence the "boy who cried wolf" analogy.