The Crab/Mantis dealings continue!

EDIT:

My thoughts-

1. I REALLY enjoyed this one, especially playing up the Mantis involvement in foreign shores.

2. Kakita Yoshi is a fool.

3. I like this means of the Mantis making a bid for status, because it's less wrapped up in a friggin' Michael Bay movie scene.

4. As, at this point, the historical Mantis/Phoenix grievance consists entirely of the Phoenix giving shelter to the murderer of Osano-Wo until the latter's divinity was proven? In the event of a "meishodo vote" situation, I'm going to lobby good and hard for Phoenix support for the Mantis- the wars have not happened yet, and I'm frankly bored with Phoenix vs. Mantis anyway (and not JUST because we lose all the time ). At this moment in history, it would allow the Phoenix to make restitution for their earlier mistake, based upon their own acknowledgment of the divinity of Osano-Wo- and could potentially stave off that endlessly dreary, "hey, let's have the Mantis and Phoenix fight. Again" treadmill. It would also shake up the baked-in dynamics from the prior continuity. Sure, the Mantis are as different from the Phoenix as night and day, but an appeal to their legitimate descent from a Kami and the Fortune of Fire and Thunder should resonate with the guys who were on-hand for a demonstration. It would also help us keep hurtling down the path to a Different Friggin' Story. The historically good relations with the Crane MIGHT be a stumbling block, but the Phoenix seem pretty close with the Lion right now anyway, so... Also, as a coastal clan, getting the Mantis to like you is just good sense. And actually, supporting their bid for Great Clan status would help the Crane, too, since the raids of a Great Clan upon another are far less humiliating to admit to in public than being bullied by a Minor Clan.

5. Wonder what this means for the other clans that would have joined Yoritomo's Alliance? I also wonder, with the Mantis so openly having access to foreign goods, if the Kasuga even exist in this continuity.

5 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

My thoughts-

1. Yes. The improvements incorporated into the Bitter Wind were really nice. Overall a really fun read. I might start liking Crabs.

2. Yes

3. Pointless explosions, shaky camerawork, and unfortunate racial stereotypes? Yeah I could do with less of those too.

4. That was one of the things about the old lore that never made sense to me. Though, with the old storyline, the case could have been made that the Phoenix did far more damage to themselves than the Mantis ever did.

I'd still like to see Kaigan's Island surface at some point.

5. They could still join. And hopefully with more cooperation from the Fox from the get go.

The Tortoise (Kasuga) I could do without. They never seemed relevant and were often forgotten about by the old story teams.

9 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

3. I like this means of the Mantis making a bid for status, because it's less wrapped up in a friggin' Michael Bay movie scene.

I like how they achieved their status before. Yoritomo played a game of chicken against he great clans and won. Being willing to risk everything just to prove a point feels very Rokugani to me.

I really liked this story, it just reaffirms to me that the Crab Clan are my favourites. Willing to do whatever it takes (even 'dishonourable' commerce) in order to protect the Empire and their people. Also quite liking the Mantis guys so far, so fully up for supporting their bid for Great Clan status.

1 hour ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

I like how they achieved their status before. Yoritomo played a game of chicken against he great clans and won. Being willing to risk everything just to prove a point feels very Rokugani to me.

Essentially throwing in his lot with Jigoku if he didn't get his way is pretty... un-Rokugani, unless Iuchiban's your cultural metric...

Great read, really excited for Mantis to join the fray. I'm assuming after the 6 imperial packs, the clan will get its own release preview.

Fiction was nice to read. But there's an underlying problem. Since last fiction, Yoritomo appears way too cool to be honest. Either he plans a nasty trick, or they portray him as the coolest guy in Rokugan, and that might end up in low Gary Stuff syndrome. I mean, yes he should be good, but seems too good. Taka's already fanboying him.

24 minutes ago, Nitenman said:

Fiction was nice to read. But there's an underlying problem. Since last fiction, Yoritomo appears way too cool to be honest. Either he plans a nasty trick, or they portray him as the coolest guy in Rokugan, and that might end up in low Gary Stuff syndrome. I mean, yes he should be good, but seems too good. Taka's already fanboying him.

That's a good point. Honestly between the pack insert fiction and this one, Taka really doesn't impress much for being a "wily trader." I know part of it is circumstances, but they even hang a lantern on it in this fiction with Taka admitting, "I never thought I would be outmaneuvered in a deal twice in one day". Since the story is from Taka's perspective, it really seems unlikely that there's an extra layer of trickery involved here where he's only pretending to be outmaneuvered.

13 minutes ago, Zesu Shadaban said:

That's a good point. Honestly between the pack insert fiction and this one, Taka really doesn't impress much for being a "wily trader." I know part of it is circumstances, but they even hang a lantern on it in this fiction with Taka admitting, "I never thought I would be outmaneuvered in a deal twice in one day". Since the story is from Taka's perspective, it really seems unlikely that there's an extra layer of trickery involved here where he's only pretending to be outmaneuvered.

Except that Taka is saying this to Yoritomo, one of the first rule of trade always make the other side think they are getting the better end of the deal. In this case he could be throwing this comment out to stoke Yoritomo's ego with the knowledge that he is getting everything that he wants with minimal investment on the part of the Crab.

3 hours ago, Nitenman said:

Fiction was nice to read. But there's an underlying problem. Since last fiction, Yoritomo appears way too cool to be honest. Either he plans a nasty trick, or they portray him as the coolest guy in Rokugan, and that might end up in low Gary Stuff syndrome. I mean, yes he should be good, but seems too good. Taka's already fanboying him.

1. Taka's fanboying for him in part because Yoritomo is going to raid and plunder the Crane lands for the jade Kakita Yoshi wouldn't fork over. A nasty trick is indeed in the offering, but it's on the Crane. And if you think he isn't going to take anything else he happens to want while doing so...

2. After the way the Mantis as a whole got treated in the narrative last time (arbitrary axe choice at the end aside), this feels downright restrained.

3. Of COURSE he and Taka like each other- they're both down to earth sorts, both willing to talk turkey, and Yoritomo has shown up as if by magic to offer what the Imperial Court in general and the Imperial Chancellor in particular either would not... or could not. And knowing he has the Crab over a barrel, in terms of being the only one willing to fill their requests, Yoritomo keeps what he's asking for almost reasonable- although he still intends to get paid, above and beyond the political support he's asking for.

4. It's still a huge thing he's asking of the Crab- at no point in the history of Rokugan has a Minor Clan had the unmitigated temerity to ask to become a Great Clan. In some ways, only the Crab would even consider the initial offer, because only they are willing to admit what they need so bluntly. Yoritomo, after all, could have brought rice from overseas ports, could have brought boatloads of fish to the tsunami-ravaged Crane to help with their food shortages. They certainly need it. But they would never stoop to admitting as much. Moreover... by backing the Mantis, who are raiding the Crane coastline, the Crab are moving from a position of quiet "I don't like you" to essentially open hostility with the Crane Clan. It also stands to sour their relations with more traditional clans like the Lion and the Phoenix (much as I'd love for that one to swing otherwise, there's no indication at this time that player input will factor in here).

9 hours ago, Nitenman said:

Fiction was nice to read. But there's an underlying problem. Since last fiction, Yoritomo appears way too cool to be honest. Either he plans a nasty trick, or they portray him as the coolest guy in Rokugan, and that might end up in low Gary Stuff syndrome. I mean, yes he should be good, but seems too good. Taka's already fanboying him.

I don't understand why people are so quick to start with the Mary Sue/ Gary Stu stuff.

Characters are allowed to be good at things.

If the character is consistently good at everything, and better than all the people that are supposed to be experts at those things, then it can become a problem. But I don't think we've had any character appear in enough fiction yet for people to really make that claim about anyone.

And I also feel the need to point out again that "Mary Sue" (or whichever unnecessarily masculinized form people want to use) is really not supposed to apply to characters that are just good at things, but are also avatars of the author inserting themselves into the work.

18 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Essentially throwing in his lot with Jigoku if he didn't get his way is pretty... un-Rokugani, unless Iuchiban's your cultural metric...

Would you also say that Kakita Yoshi is "essentially throwing in his lot with Jigoku" for refusing to give the crab clan the aid they need? What about the rest of the clans? Where exactly do you draw the line?

1 hour ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

Would you also say that Kakita Yoshi is "essentially throwing in his lot with Jigoku" for refusing to give the crab clan the aid they need? What about the rest of the clans? Where exactly do you draw the line?

Nope.

Here's the distinction, and where I draw the line: Yoritomo made his move at a time of open battle, with clearly delineated enemies, stating that he would, in effect, give the forces fo Jigoku aid and succor by either (depending on the continuity) directly attacking the forces of Rokugan, or by taking his ball and going home, despite the stakes being crystal-clear.

While Kakita Yoshi is a fool, his malice is not on that order of magnitude.

It's really not that fine a distinction.

Alls I know from reading this is that if they write a book about Crab and Mantis relationships and the various details of Yoritomo stealing treasure chests full of jade I would buy that so fast my wallet would puke.

Definitely gonna see what the Mantis is saying when they come out.

One minor, but important point--Kakita Yoshi wasn't refusing to hand over jade the Crane might happen to have. Rather, he was refusing to hand over jade on behalf of the Emperor. Likewise, Taka wasn't seeking jade from the Crane when he spoke to Yoshi, he was trying to get the Emperor to open the taps on the jade supply but, as Kachiko noted in the earlier fiction when she was speaking to the Emperor, there's an Empire-wide shortage of the stuff. As she said, existing mines are almost exhausted and no new ones have been found to increase the supply. The fact Yoritomo has jade that he appears to have taken from the Crane is separate from this. Take from this what you will, but Yoshi was very much playing his role as Imperial Chancellor when he was speaking to Taka, he wasn't representing his Clan.

I ship Taka and Yoritomo. I'm going to commission some fan art <3

3 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

One minor, but important point--Kakita Yoshi wasn't refusing to hand over jade the Crane might happen to have. Rather, he was refusing to hand over jade on behalf of the Emperor. Likewise, Taka wasn't seeking jade from the Crane when he spoke to Yoshi, he was trying to get the Emperor to open the taps on the jade supply but, as Kachiko noted in the earlier fiction when she was speaking to the Emperor, there's an Empire-wide shortage of the stuff. As she said, existing mines are almost exhausted and no new ones have been found to increase the supply. The fact Yoritomo has jade that he appears to have taken from the Crane is separate from this. Take from this what you will, but Yoshi was very much playing his role as Imperial Chancellor when he was speaking to Taka, he wasn't representing his Clan.

And all irrelevant to the fact that Taka will hold the Crane responsible... as Yoritomo appears to know full-well.

Here's an observation on this story.

Let's posit the following. I don't think any of these are a stretch.

1) Kakita Yoshi is a consummate politician, able to keep track of more than one thing at a time. If he does something, it's not because he's being stupid.

2) Yoshi has been told the Emperor will not give Taka any support in arms or weapons or jade.

3) Yoshi has been told that the Emperor does not want Taka to keep bothering him.

4) The Crane themselves have almost no jade or men or weapons to spare, between the tsunami and the war with the Lion

5) Yoshi does not want a war with the Crab, but actually does believe that the Crab are doing an important thing and could use the Jade.

6) Yoshi knows a shipment of Jade was stolen from the Crane by Yoritomo. He knows this because it's /his/ Jade.

Given that....

What if Yoshi gave Taka the hard, cold shoulder knowing that such a great merchant will be able to somehow find out where a whole shipment of Jade ended up and get it from/bargain it from Yoritomo, if he had the realization that he wasn't going to get it by normal means? It's not like he didn't drop enough hints about Yoritomo and the pirates in that conversation to get him looking in that direction.

Just because Yoshi no longer has the Crane Jade doesn't mean he doesn't know where it is. It could be he's enough ahead of the game that he's intentionally steering Taka towards Yoritomo. At least if Taka gets it, rather than Yoritomo, it's doing some good.

Edit to add: Yeah, the Crab will hate the Crane even if all this was true....but they would anyway.

An interesting speculation. Not one I personally see as terribly likely- if Kakita Yoshi (Fool) was as clever as you posit.... he was tasked with saying no. He could quite easily have steered Taka to the Mantis without increasing Taka's ire with the Crane- ( " Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the **** out of your enemies"- Rule of Acquisition 76 ) .

Moreover, we know from the Crane stories we've gotten, that the Mantis raids on their coasts are a very real problem, not simply a threat they exaggerate for external consumption.

Encouraging the Crab- as embodied by the bumptious but important representative they sent to Court- to think more ill of the Crane than usual while steering them towards guys who are already stealing your meager lunch money? You are in effect adding an enemy, politically if not otherwise, at a time when your clan is up to its eyeballs in trouble.

Who are the Crane on good terms with at present? Per Kachiko's analysis, the Unicorn, Phoenix, and Dragon- which would be a formidable balance of power, save that the Unicorn and Phoenix aren't getting along, and the Dragon are chummier with the ponies and the pollos than they are with the mud birds. The Crane's political allies are disunited- their enemies?

The Scorpion are riding high, and while Kachiko has some misgivings about how she has used Hotaru, the policy of not allowing alliances to form is still there. Meta-narratively, we know the Scorpion's ascendance won't last forever, but... when Kachiko's suggestions to the Emperor can lead to the Kakita Daimyo/Imperial Chancellor having his calendar rearranged, safe to say the power dynamics don't favor the Crane.

The Lion are actually doing their bit to drive the Crane and Unicorn closer together by antagonizing both... but are also making overtures to the Phoenix- besides the high=profile wedding of the daughter of the Master of Void to the Lion Clan Champion, the current Phoenix Clan Champion trained with the Akodo. There are enough philosophical differences that this might go no further, but it doesn't speak well for full-throated Phoenix support against Lion aggression, political or otherwise- particularly if Phoenix/Unicorn tensions worsen.

The Crab, who were merely contemptuous before this exchange, are now galvanized to actual enmity. Moreover, they are now supporting the Mantis politically, and while Crab political support isn't what they're famous for, the Mantis now have an ally who will represent their interests as legitimate. The Crane's freedom to condemn the Mantis as mere "pirates" before the Imperial Court is now going to suffer some pushback- pushback from a foe whose armies may be busy at the Wall, but whose political assets are now freed up from running around with their begging bowl to focus on other matters.

If the Crane can no longer hire the services of the Mantis as they once did, then why not steer them toward a new patron who is friendlier to your interests? Failing that (the Phoenix, the only other coastal clan, don't seem to be hurting for material needs), it would make sense to mend fences with their likely new patrons, because as matters stand? The Crab are going to LOVE it every time the Mantis do something bad to the Crane.

EDIT: Moreover, in the present stage of the narrative, I don't think we're going to get people making things better - we're still in the "watch the train go off the rails in agonizing slow motion" phase....

What did Yoshi say that would make you suspect he was steering Taka towards Yoritomo?

I don't know how much if at all the details of player choices will be allowed to weigh in, but consider this. When the vote came to decide whether meishodo should be banned, as I recall Lion was the only clan to stand with the Phoenix in favor of the ban. While obviously the ban itself didn't go through, it could be interesting to see if FFG decides to use that in directing future relations between the two clans. If they do, that would likely drive a wedge between the Phoenix and Crane, while at the same time Dragon may decide to distance themselves from Phoenix as well in favor of their pony allies.

16 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

And all irrelevant to the fact that Taka will hold the Crane responsible... as Yoritomo appears to know full-well.

It's not irrelevant at all. Taka didn't request a meeting with Yoshi...he requested a meeting with the Emperor and had to settle for meeting with Yoshi. So Taka was very clear he was meeting Yoshi as the Emperor's representative. He may hold the Crane responsible to some degree (they apparently had a bunch of jade they weren't sharing, after all...IF you believe Yoritomo, that is) but he certainly isn't likely to forget that the Emperor was offering nothing to assist the Crab--and used an obnoxious Imperial Chancellor to do it.

14 hours ago, Soshi Nimue said:

What did Yoshi say that would make you suspect he was steering Taka towards Yoritomo?

He repeatedly mentioned not just /pirates/ or the dangers of sea travel, but Mantis pirates, and Yoritomo's name in particular as his excuse. In fact, Yoritomo and his pirates are the very first excuse he provides. He raises traveling by sea first. Only later, when Taka discusses alternates to the sea, does he discuss land movement at all. He could have mentioned any method or excuse he wanted, including the reality that the jade mines were almost dry....Kachiko's excuse. But he mentioned Yoritomo's Mantis pirates first and often.

16 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

An interesting speculation. Not one I personally see as terribly likely- if Kakita Yoshi (Fool) was as clever as you posit.... he was tasked with saying no. He could quite easily have steered Taka to the Mantis without increasing Taka's ire with the Crane- ( " Every once in a while, declare peace. It confuses the **** out of your enemies"- Rule of Acquisition 76 ) .

He was still tasked with saying No and almost certainly knew Taka was not pre-disposed to be friendly to the Crane. He could have redirected their ire towards the Lion (and, note, he kind of does by reminding him about the Lion saying no) but if he pushes it that far, he risks the Crab either going to war with the Lion or resolving their issues with the Lion, neither situation being optimal if your southern border is the place where the Oni get through.

Remember there are Daidoji serving on the wall as well.

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Moreover, we know from the Crane stories we've gotten, that the Mantis raids on their coasts are a very real problem, not simply a threat they exaggerate for external consumption.

Encouraging the Crab- as embodied by the bumptious but important representative they sent to Court- to think more ill of the Crane than usual while steering them towards guys who are already stealing your meager lunch money? You are in effect adding an enemy, politically if not otherwise, at a time when your clan is up to its eyeballs in trouble.

They are a real threat...I don't think Yoshi respects Yoritomo as a leader...only that he is a mercenary pirate who stole his Jade. The idea of Mantis having an alliance with the Crab, rather than the Crab just wheeling and dealing to get the Jade from the Mantis is a little beyond him. After all....all the Crab care about is Shadowlands. How do ships defend a wall? But Mantis is raiding Crane anyway. Crab despise the Crane anyway...and don't have the resources to make things worse for the Crane anyway. As far as Yoshi is concerned, the

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situation won't have changed.

Who are the Crane on good terms with at present? Per Kachiko's analysis, the Unicorn, Phoenix, and Dragon- which would be a formidable balance of power, save that the Unicorn and Phoenix aren't getting along, and the Dragon are chummier with the ponies and the pollos than they are with the mud birds. The Crane's political allies are disunited- their enemies?

The Scorpion are riding high, and while Kachiko has some misgivings about how she has used Hotaru, the policy of not allowing alliances to form is still there. Meta-narratively, we know the Scorpion's ascendance won't last forever, but... when Kachiko's suggestions to the Emperor can lead to the Kakita Daimyo/Imperial Chancellor having his calendar rearranged, safe to say the power dynamics don't favor the Crane.

The Lion are actually doing their bit to drive the Crane and Unicorn closer together by antagonizing both... but are also making overtures to the Phoenix- besides the high=profile wedding of the daughter of the Master of Void to the Lion Clan Champion, the current Phoenix Clan Champion trained with the Akodo. There are enough philosophical differences that this might go no further, but it doesn't speak well for full-throated Phoenix support against Lion aggression, political or otherwise- particularly if Phoenix/Unicorn tensions worsen.

Yes, the Crane's allies are in disarray and power dynamics don't favor the Crane. But the Crab are clearly out of favor and have no help to give in the court in Yoshi's eyes (given the Emperor's dismissal of Taka's request...and the delegation of it to Yoshi), and militarily they not only can't assist, but /shouldn't/ assist if the Shadowlands is the bigger threat. The Crane can hate the Crab all they want, and visa versa, but they're not stupid. Crane lands are the first place an invasion from the Shadowlands goes.

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The Crab, who were merely contemptuous before this exchange, are now galvanized to actual enmity. Moreover, they are now supporting the Mantis politically, and while Crab political support isn't what they're famous for, the Mantis now have an ally who will represent their interests as legitimate. The Crane's freedom to condemn the Mantis as mere "pirates" before the Imperial Court is now going to suffer some pushback- pushback from a foe whose armies may be busy at the Wall, but whose political assets are now freed up from running around with their begging bowl to focus on other matters.

To Yoshi, they are mere pirates. He doesn't know they're so brazen as to want more than just as much koku as they can get. I think he's smart...but he's never met Yoritomo. To him, they're not an entity a great clan can have an alliance with.

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If the Crane can no longer hire the services of the Mantis as they once did, then why not steer them toward a new patron who is friendlier to your interests? Failing that (the Phoenix, the only other coastal clan, don't seem to be hurting for material needs), it would make sense to mend fences with their likely new patrons, because as matters stand? The Crab are going to LOVE it every time the Mantis do something bad to the Crane.

Because he's not trying to steer them to an alliance. He's trying to steer them to a specific shipment of jade that he had to trade with, but now, regrettably, Yoritomo has.

At least that's my thought.

2 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

Remember there are Daidoji serving on the wall as well.

Source?

2 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

Because he's not trying to steer them to an alliance. He's trying to steer them to a specific shipment of jade that he had to trade with, but now, regrettably, Yoritomo has.

At least that's my thought.

What gives you the impression that the Crane were trying to trade that Jade?

8 hours ago, DGLaderoute said:

It's not irrelevant at all. Taka didn't request a meeting with Yoshi...he requested a meeting with the Emperor and had to settle for meeting with Yoshi. So Taka was very clear he was meeting Yoshi as the Emperor's representative. He may hold the Crane responsible to some degree (they apparently had a bunch of jade they weren't sharing, after all...IF you believe Yoritomo, that is) but he certainly isn't likely to forget that the Emperor was offering nothing to assist the Crab--and used an obnoxious Imperial Chancellor to do it.

All of which feeds into my central (long, repeated) argument on the thread about the other fiction touching on this plot...