I was a bit disappointed in this fiction. It came off flat, like there were no characters we were attached to. Taka wasn't in control of any part of the story, so even though it followed him it didn't engage us with him. He was unable to control himself in getting dressed, and didn't get any little thing accomplished with Yoshi. He didn't make any rhetorical points that forced Yoshi to do anything besides say no, no, no, no, no... Kinda boring story.

The only character who really did anything was Yoritomo, and he was there for just a few lines. "Hi, I'm here, suddenly you're in a bag and my prisoner."

I didn't like it...

Now if Taka was expecting Yoritomo to be there, perhaps as his backup because he knew Yoshi wouldn't have done anything it could have shown off Yoritomo and shown Taka as being a man with a plan. I would have much preferred that... Unfortunately that wasn't how it happened, so I'm just disappointed. Flat story, flat Taka, flat Yoshi, and "suddenly here and cool pirate" who just bags Taka like nothing and walks out...

I'm reminded of the pre-launch Lion clan story. Big battle, no one can do anything, Arasou mindlessly charges, suddenly Hotaru steps out, fires 2 shots to end the entire fight and kill Arasou, and gone... Why was the Lion story about Hotaru? Why was a story about Taka visiting the Emperor really about Yoritomo easily abducting him?

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

@Shiba Gunichi If not giving into Crab demands is "injury" then Kakita Yoshi has no more to fear from them than every other non-Crab in the Empire.

If his total arrogant disdain and dismissal of the Crab leads them down the road to revolt?

You're absolutely right. He'll be no more hosed than literally everyone in the Empire he serves.

And it's that responsibility which makes his response bone-grindingly stupid.

Yasuki Taka is supposed to be a savvy merchant. I can only assume, therefore, that his meeting was a pure formality considering he made no actual attempt to bargain. Perhaps Yasuki Taka was more in control, in terms of his own veiled stratagems, than he appears.

This is L5R fiction. I wouldn't be surprised to eventually read about how Yasuki Taka set up Yoritomo to kidnap him.

8 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

total arrogant disdain and dismissal

Starting to come off as Crane-baiting. From Yasuki Taka's POV, Kakita Yoshi is stuffy and contemptuous.

Now imagine the same story told from Kakita Yoshi's POV: So you are here asking for something but you, you of all people, must know that diplomacy is trade ... and yet what have you brought to trade? So what are you and Hida Kisada really up to? I know you play the part of a bumpkin, just like I play the part of a peacock. Let's see if I can draw you out a bit.

Or you can just assume that Kakita Yoshi is exactly and only as Yasuki Taka perceives him to be. As if Yasuki Taka is the only person in the Empire who knows how to adopt a misleading persona.

I mean, to be fair, the Crab continue to offer to lay down their lives in defense of the Empire. They just want some support so that keeps happening. Seems like a fair trade.

Every Clan perceives itself as making constant sacrifices for the Empire and naturally sees those sacrifices as the most important ones. The Crab tend to be a lot more willing than others to say what they think: they are the only ones really making a sacrifice.

1 hour ago, Manchu said:

Starting to come off as Crane-baiting. From Yasuki Taka's POV, Kakita Yoshi is stuffy and contemptuous.

Now imagine the same story told from Kakita Yoshi's POV: So you are here asking for something but you, you of all people, must know that diplomacy is trade ... and yet what have you brought to trade? So what are you and Hida Kisada really up to? I know you play the part of a bumpkin, just like I play the part of a peacock. Let's see if I can draw you out a bit.

Or you can just assume that Kakita Yoshi is exactly and only as Yasuki Taka perceives him to be. As if Yasuki Taka is the only person in the Empire who knows how to adopt a misleading persona.

1. Diplomacy is trade. A petition from a vassal to a superior for the tools required to do the job is not. Taka isn't petitioning the clans, he is representing the Crab in a petition to the Throne. Merely the fact that he is seeing the Chancellor- from a clan that hates his family- rather than the Emperor meant that Taka had his answer before Yoshi even opened his mouth.

2. I assume that Kakita Yoshi was given the job of saying no, and chose to do in a supercilious manner using the most feeble excuses possible.

There are ways of saying no without sounding so utterly delighted to be doing so. Yoshi is a fool.

3. What possible skulduggery would the Crab be getting up to with Jade? There is exactly one opponent against whom it is a military resource, and it's the one the Crab exist to fight so no one else has to.

There is no spin that doesn't leave Yoshi making the situation far worse than he has to. He has exacerbated relations with the Crab at a time when the Crane need all the friends they can get. He has stated that the Empire cannot defend its maritime trade from the Mantis, despite the fact that they aren't at all numerous relative to the other forces on Rokugan. He has stated that marching an army under Imperial Mandate might upset the peasantry and that doing so is therefore off the books.

In one short meeting, Kakita Yoshi has made it apparent to the Crab Clan's designated representative to the Imperial Court that the throne is both weak and indifferent to the Crab Clan's situation and that the Crane still hold a grudge and will not provide any help.

A perception of weakness, incompetence, and indifference is what led to open armed revolt in the last timeline, and while Yoshi is, of course, not privy to that, he would have to be a fool to think his pathetic excuses are going to do anything good.

What a ... quaint view of feudalism in Rokugan - as if the Throne did not have its own interests, in addition to serving as the fulcrum on which Clan relations balance.

My interpretation does not require assuming that the Imperial Chancellor is a fool. I also don't need to assume Yasuki Taka is the bumbling hayseed he makes himself out to be. Rather, I think both portray themselves as what the other expects or at least would appear to expect.

All the same, marching weapons and troops through Crane territory at the demand of the Crab - that seems like a reasonable request to ... who exactly? And the Crab have some claim on the resources (such as jade) of other Clans? Who exactly is in charge of this empire? Hantei XXXVIII or Hida Kisada?

Ah yes, you and I know that isn't just a rhetorical question.

I'm actually amazed that someone read that story and decided that Kakita Yoshi is the good guy in this situation.

1 hour ago, Vlad3theImpaler said:

I'm actually amazed that someone read that story and decided that Kakita Yoshi is the good guy in this situation.

I don't think it's "Yoshi is the good guy" but reacting against "Yoshi is a cartoon villain because he's a Crane!".

Personally, I think that Yoshi was given the task of getting rid of the Crab and their endless requests for audiences, resources, men etc. Probably by Kachiko, using an excuse of something like "The Emperor's getting a bit tired of him." Now, Yoshi could have done it in a much more pleasant way (he's a Crane, off course he could have been polite about it), but this is a Yasuki we're talking about, a descendant of one of the traitors, a man who claims to be the best trader in the Empire. Yeah, a proud and selfish person (he's a Crane Daimyo, of course he's proud and selfish) takes advantage of the situation to twist the knife, but it's not incompetence, as someone has been suggesting.

2 hours ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

but it's not incompetence, as someone has been suggesting.

So what would you think motivated the use of excuses that are both lame and make the Empire look weak?

Putting aside Taka's subjective perceptions-

The guy brought a tessen to a courtly interview to make his position clear from the outset.

Implies that Taka should play the oh-so-dignified mouth harp.

States that the Empire cannot safeguard marine troop transports from a pack of pirates if "but a single Mantis craft" sighted them.

Implies that he doesn't want the Crab getting weapons because he's pretty sure the Crab would use them on the Crane and doesn't want the weapons the Empire cannot keep safe from Mantis at sea from falling into their hands. (This one, at least, is excusable, if you buy the thesis of a pathetically inept Imperial maritime endeavor, and is, at least, justifiable)

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What a ... quaint view of feudalism in Rokugan - as if the Throne did not have its own interests, in addition to serving as the fulcrum on which Clan relations balance.

And how are those interests served by making the claim that their ships are so ineffectual that a bunch of either ronin or minor clan pirates can completely interdict any coastal shipment above a certain size?

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My interpretation does not require assuming that the Imperial Chancellor is a fool.

Beg your pardon, but what do you think he's trying to achieve here that isn't pointless folly?

Look, I loathe the Crane, but when the Phoenix made boneheaded moves in the old story, I called them on it with far more vehemence than I'm using here.

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All the same, marching weapons and troops through Crane territory at the demand of the Crab - that seems like a reasonable request to ... who exactly?

To the guy you just told you were scared the Mantis would ravage any ships you sent.

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Who exactly is in charge of this empire? Hantei XXXVIII or Hida Kisada?

Going by Yoshi's words? It's definitely not the former.

Moreover, given a chance to mend fences by saying no nicely at a time when his Clan is not exactly doing well, and when they're embroiled in bloodshed with the Lion on one front, this was not a smart play by Yoshi. Guy's a fool.

(As an aside... my god, I've missed this. )

I kinda don't like this story because it leaves both Taka and Yoshi as flat characters, who go through the motions and don't get anything done... or even try...

Its just a bad fiction and it sucks to see these characters being portrayed as such flat, inactive people. Both Taka and Yoshi did great things in the old fictions, I hope the writers do a better job going forward.

I lay the blame for this on the writers. I think Yoshi seems foolish because he seems flat, responding with simply refusals to any request without really challenging Taka. He even repeats the same refusal twice. Taka doesn't challenge Yoshi either, he doesn't try to offer any incentive for Yoshi to work with him - and as "Rokugan's best negotiator" you'd think he'd have offered SOMETHING... It's on the writers, they better write these characters better going forward.

See, Taka's relative inaction makes sense to me- the second he sees who he's meeting (to say nothing of the friggin' tessen the guy brought along with him), he has his answer. That he tries at all speaks volumes for how important his mission is.

I think what's going on is, you're losing sight of the forest (Kakita Yoshi's policy goals) for the trees (Kakita Yoshi's tone). Judging by the story, neither man is particularly insulted by the quirks of the persona adopted by the other. Yoshi's reference to a mouth harp rolls off of Taka like water off of a duck's back. It doesn't trouble him at all. Neither is Yoshi going to make a personal grudge out of Taka referencing ox ****. These little barbs might sting lesser men but neither the Imperial Chancellor nor the Yasuki daimyo are susceptible to such slights, beyond playing to their adopted roles - it's just like how experienced bushi easily parry obvious strikes.

We can therefore set aside the tone policing and get down to business: Is the complaint that the Imperial Chancellor (a) improperly refuses to give aid that the Emperor can afford and that the Crab rightly deserved, presumably because the Crane do not trust the Crab, or (b) improperly divulges that the Emperor cannot afford to give the aid, regardless of whether (he thinks) the Crab deserve or need it?

Option (b) is not supported by the text. Nowhere does Kakita Yoshi say or even imply that the Empire is weak. He merely explains that transporting soldiers, weapons, and jade by sea is too costly and risky. Here we're tiptoeing through highly ambiguous ground. Has the Emperor declared the Mantis traitors/criminals? Or is Yoshi speaking more about Crane politics or his personal position here? We just don't know at this point.

So I think the main issue is, people read this story and they fall into the POV from which it is told - namely, the Crab perspective. And it's the same old "no one understand how important we are" way of thinking. "That stuffy Crane is too flouncy to understand the truth like us Crab!" At least this story doesn't imply that Yasuki Taka is simple enough to believe such nonsense.

7 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Option (b) is not supported by the text. Nowhere does Kakita Yoshi say or even imply that the Empire is weak. He merely explains that transporting soldiers, weapons, and jade by sea is too costly and risky.

...

No. He directly says that if even a single Mantis vessel spotted the convoy, it would be lost.

His words. Not his tone.

Your defense of him is frankly incomprehensible, because the crux of my position lies not in his attitude, but in the words that left his mouth.

His stance as a Crane who hates on Yasuki is almost certainly not his sole motive- he doesn't get to choose whether the Empire sends aid or not, and I rather doubt he was told to send aid and then decided, "nope," because as powerful as the Chancellor can be, he's not quite up there. He and Taka were never going to like one another. But the way he phrases his refusals is entirely in his hands, and the way he did so made it plain that a mangy pack of pirates- whatever their legal status- can be weighed against any maritime action the Empire takes.

Words. Not tone. The tone's failing enters into his long-term planning, which appears, frankly, to be totally absent.

Yes, the Mantis pirates are what make that option too risky. What's your point?

I mean, you yourself just distinguished between what Yoshi said and how he said it - and you're emphasizing the latter. Tone.

By contrast, I am more interested in the substance. It's a given that there will be verbal sparring, why get so hung up on it? Please consult with your Asako cousins, Shiba-kun.

27 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Yes, the Mantis pirates are what make that option too risky. What's your point?

That Yoshi, once again, by the words he used, not the tone he used to convey them , stated, to a family daimyo, that the Empire either cannot or will not deal with a bunch of scuzzbucket pirates who are not a Great Clan. That is a direct statement of weakness- either material or moral- on the part of the throne.

27 minutes ago, Manchu said:

I mean, you yourself just distinguished between what Yoshi said and how he said it - and you're emphasizing the latter. Tone.

That is distinct from the issue of conveying imperial weakness- he's not only making the Throne look impotent, he's also unnecessarily alienating a clan which borders his own. Which is also pretty friggin' dumb, but less catastrophically so.

27 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Please consult with your Asako cousins, Shiba-kun.

I'm not a magical samurai.

For what it's worth....In my reading of it, I'm left with trying to understand the reason for Yoshi's tone.

I think from the earlier fiction with Kachiko, it's heavily inferred that the Emperor / Kachiko already knows what the Crab want. Of COURSE they know what the Crab want. The Crab always want the same things: men, weapons, Jade. Taka's appearance is not a surprise. He does not need to actually ask for these things at all for them to decide whether or not to give them. If the Emperor was going to say yes in any sense of the word, ever, Yoshi would have said yes. I'm pretty sure Yoshi was told the Crab were not getting anything from the Emperor, and his job was to give Taka that answer.

So...then the tone. The best thing for the Crane would be to redirect the Crab's wrath towards the Lion. Tell Taka that the Crane couldn't, and the Emperor wouldn't, but persuade the Lion to reinforce their position, try again with further attempts. Keep a very polite, friendly, helpful tone. Best consequence: the Lion agree, drawing down Lion troops from those just about to attack the Crane, and support the Crab. Worst consequence: The Lion disagree, the Crab get angry at the Lion, and now the Lion have to deal with a big angry Crabby force who will oppose the.

Yoshi doesn't do this.

What Yoshi does, and does successfully, is completely squash Taka's hopes of seeking help from the Emperor, or the Crane. This may be a bad move...but it is what the Crab need to do, if no help is coming. It stops wasting Crab resources and times trying to look to someone else (the Emperor) to save them....since the Emperor wont. It doesn't put the Crab in conflict with any other clan...only, Taka, maybe, personally, with him. It basically gives Taka permission to look for creative other options. It's the 'aint never ever ever ever gonna happen' that frees Taka to try something different than what he's been trying for ages.

Not saying Yoshi is being a good guy...but false hope isn't where the Crab need to be. So I can see why he would take that approach.

Just a thought.

Still no textual support for Kakita Yoshi " making the Throne look impotent." Kakita Yoshi just explained the countervailing risks and costs inherent to giving the Crab what they want. It is very clear to me that what he chose to say was meant to communicate mistrust of the Crab. Kakita Yoshi does not believe the Crab are facing a real crisis. He believes they want more power ...

... which is a thing all Great Clans want, whether they are explicitly aware of it or not. The fact that the Crab offered nothing to the Lion - just demanded unilateral command of their soldiers - and that Yasuki Taka also doesn't bring anything to the table or even plead a convincing case ... this just establishes why Kakita Yoshi is reasonably suspicious.

Also no textual support for "unnecessarily alienating" the Crab. First, as a matter of tone: there is no evidence that Yasuki Taka is either personally offended or offended on behalf of the Crab by anything Kakita Yoshi says. Second, as a matter of politics: I don't think the Crab are so dense to believe that the Emperor and other Great Clans either capitualte to Crab demands -OR- they are enemies.

I don't think Kakita Yoshi wants the Lion and Crab working out a friendship where Lion are comfotable with Crab commanding their soldiers or where Crab are comfortable with Lion autonomously manning sections of the Carpenter Wall. In either situation, we are talking about Crab and Lion deeply trusting each other. That would be terrible for Crane. Regardless, Yoshi is in no position to either foster or frustrate that relatioship.

Here it's important to remember that while Crane and Lion are on the verge of war, Crab and Crane actually were at war. Taka points out this is ancient history. Of course he would - like the time he talked down those ronin. Would a Crane samurai ever explain to some ronin bandits that we're all just poor brothers trying to survive? No, more likely the Crane would rather die fighting such curs. If you think that makes the Crane foolish well ... ahem ... welcome to Rokugan.

So if the answer was always No is Kakita Yoshi just taking this opportunity to take some petty shots at the Yasuki daimyo and the Crab at large? No, I think not. Again, the Imperial Chancellor is interested in the balance of power. He wants to inform Taka that he doesn't buy the Crab justification for making demands on the Empire. And he wants to suss out whether there is anything substantial behind these demands. Yasuki Taka does not even attempt to explain why this time is different, why the Crab really do need help this time.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I'm not a magical samurai.

Then why on earth do you care?

In all seriousness, what I meant was: consider this situation from other POVs.

Won't let me edit quotes, so this, alas, is tag-free vanilla...

"Still no textual support for Kakita Yoshi " making the Throne look impotent." "

Dude.

It's right there. In black and white.

How do you not see it? I'm genuinely baffled at this point. How do you not see?

Once again, for at least the third time, he says, outright, that being spotted by a single Mantis vessel spells the doom of any Imperial shipping endeavor above a certain size. What part of that don't you get? That is a pathetic degree of weakness on the part of the Empire, and for him to imply it in a private conversation between daimyo is an incredibly dumb thing to be saying.

" Also no textual support for "unnecessarily alienating" the Crab. "

He had a chance to mend fences, make friends. He pointedly avoided doing so- nobody told him to bring a tessen to his private meeting with a family daimyo. He did that on his own. So no. You're wrong again, there is textual support.

"Here it's important to remember that while Crane and Lion are on the verge of war, Crab and Crane actually were at war. "

Centuries ago. The Lion are a threat now, why not make nice with someone who might consider it?

" So if the answer was always No is Kakita Yoshi just taking this opportunity to take some petty shots at the Yasuki daimyo and the Crab at large? No, I think not. Again, the Imperial Chancellor is interested in the balance of power."

The Imperial Chancellor is interested in old grudges. You do not bring an implement of war to a meeting where you're just talking balance of power.

"Yasuki Taka does not even attempt to explain why this time is different, why the Crab really do need help this time."

What could he have said that would have made a difference?

"In all seriousness, what I meant was: consider this situation from other POVs."

I have. It's what has me where I am, shaking my head at Yoshi's blinkered stupidity.

Only one Mantis ship need spot the Imperial convoy. Are you imagining Kakita Yoshi meant a single Mantis ship could take the entire convoy a prize? One ship would spot it and alert the rest of the Mantis fleet to close in.

Another molehill: the tessen. Why do you imagine this is such an unforgivable slight? It doesn't make such an impression on Yasuki Taka. The implication is clearly that Kakita Yoshi is prepared for a metaphorical "war" of words.

Finally, "old grudges" - centuries roll by yet the fundamental calculus remains constant. The Crab envision themselves as tough warriors owed tribute by their soft neighbors. In fact, that is even what the conversation in question is about.

You seriously aren't looking at it from any other angle other than - apparently - your self-confessed loathing of Crane.

23 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Only one Mantis ship need spot the Imperial convoy. Are you imagining Kakita Yoshi meant a single Mantis ship could take the entire convoy a prize? One ship would spot it and alert the rest of the Mantis fleet to close in.

Yes.

Exactly.

The Mantis- not a Great Clan, potentially, but we have no way of knowing, not even a Minor Clan- can apparently descend upon Imperial shipping at will with no hope of being successfully fought off, even when the ships in question are troop carriers.

To throw your own rhetorical question back at you, who rules this Empire?

23 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Another molehill: the tessen. Why do you imagine this is such an unforgivable slight? It doesn't make such an impression on Yasuki Taka. The implication is clearly that Kakita Yoshi is prepared for a metaphorical "war" of words.

You're far too generous to Yoshi's imbecilic discourtesy. Taka takes the time to note the difference. To think that bringing an implement of war to a private conversation between daimyo is not a slight is... well.

What a... quaint view of Rokugani social mores. Symbols have meaning, and none know this better than the Crane. It is a declaration of outright hostility.

23 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Finally, "old grudges" - centuries roll by yet the fundamental calculus remains constant. The Crab envision themselves as tough warriors owed tribute by their soft neighbors. In fact, that is even what the conversation in question is about.

The Crab are not asking the Crane for anything. They're asking everyone. And whatever else you might think, the Crab clearly do not regard the Lion as "soft."

23 minutes ago, Manchu said:

You seriously aren't looking at it from any other angle other than - apparently - your self-confessed loathing of Crane.

You're entitled to your opinion, but I assure you, no small part of my incredulity at Yoshi's folly is HOW BAD his actions are for the Crane- some background- I don't hate the Crane for who they are or how they present themselves- I hate them for meta-textual reasons, for being story hogs. His actions do the Crane no favors, and they do the Throne no favors, and that he cannot see this and even attempt a mild course correction is why he's a fool.

And finally, you did not answer my question:

If, as you seem to think, Taka owed more of an explanation in the face of blatant hostility and a patently obvious conversational direction from the moment he saw who he was meeting with... What could he have said that would have made a difference?

On November 18, 2017 at 3:54 AM, Tonbo Karasu said:

I don't think it's "Yoshi is the good guy" but reacting against "Yoshi is a cartoon villain because he's a Crane!".

So you were reacting against an argument that wasn't actually being made?

If Yoshi was a Scorpion, Lion, etc., he still would have come across just as negatively in this story. Being a jerk and being a Crane are two independent variables.