5 hours ago, Stilgod said:

What a difference a few months makes. If only players like you had pulled their heads out of their asses years ago and demanded packs, maybe we wouldn't be in this current citation. Nice edit, btw.

Given between card packs and an infinite assortment of errata, I have decided that card packs are the lesser of two evils. It really wasn't the few months but the last FAQ, essentially killing the product model that every upgrade card is playable with the model it comes into the package.

So essentially FFG did something worse than card packs treating the game not like another table top game like magic the gathering, but like a video game which as far more separated from table top miniature games than from a trading card game. I don't think treating X-wing like a card game was ever a good idea, but it is a lot better than treating it like say Battlefront 2 with constant errata patches and so on. So yeah your idea is better than what they are doing which is caving into competitive pressure which can be the end of many a good games.

This is not the first time FFG convinced me to change my mind by doing something I cannot defend. I was against proxying cards until all the balance erratas started to came out. And none of those erratas have really done anything to fix the faction balance in the meta. In result I am now a proponent of proxying cards or even just going to a list printout in place of cards.

8 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

This actually brings up a good point I should have mentioned before - both of these factors (Lack of randomness and interaction purchasing) are key to X Wing's cost relative to a card game.

Randomness drives up sales substantially - individual card packs may only be $5 in Magic, but players buy hundreds of dollars worth because randomness requires it to get rare cards. X Wing expansions are non random, so players generally only buy as many as they need. Same goes with interfactionality. I am primarily a Rebel player, but I bought the TIE Aggressor day 1 so I could run Intensity on Poe. Splitting card packs into faction specific would further decrease average sales, further driving up the price necessary to recoup costs.

And the higher the price goes, the more people will whinge about it (look at the TIE Silencer if you want an example).

Given the loot box craze, the success of MTG and how FFG is experimenting with destiny, it may seem like that is the right answer. But I still stand by my position that X-wing is a miniature game first, the cards are only there to give specifications to the models. That being said Miniature games with random boosters tend to not do well in sales. All you have to do is look at past games such as Wizzards of the Coast Star Wars miniatures and Monsterpocalypse as good examples why randomize packaging in a miniature game will make it unsuccessful.

As far as offsetting price of cards they can still use the interdependency of the products to drive up sales like thay have been. The faction split only affects the pilot cards as non-faction restricted upgrades can be dived out between any of the packs. Much like in Wave 2 where they put PTL in A-wing packs while Soontir is in the TIE Interceptor packs, they can still do the same with the update packs.

Randomness may drive up sales but that is only among a select few known as whales. Now while this may be good for an online game where you can use the internet to connect people miles and miles away, a table top game will die if X-wing becomes only accessible to the whales as whales are physically few and far between. Besides, with the exception of a select few games, most loot box games are not planed to be supported for long being replaced the following year.

3 hours ago, deogg said:

THIS.

"Do you have any more gum? More gum. More gum. More gum. Do you have any more gum?" (bonus points if you get the reference)

Was that Billy madison?

11 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

I thought the cards were just there to give you something to read while you chew the gum.

Read fast. If I remember right the taste lasted about 30 seconds then you were chewing a rubber band.

12 hours ago, MacchuWA said:

This comes up constantly. Short answer, they've said definitively that they won't be doing this for X Wings - no card packs without miniatures. It's unclear whether this is a licensing issue (the Star Wars miniatures licensing and the card game licensing are apparently legally separate, so miniatures sales may be specifically prohibited from any sales without a miniature) or an economic issue, but my money's on the latter. Here's why:

FFG's sale price when selling a product likely has very little to do with the costs associated with printing the catds and manufacturing the miniature and printing the cards, although some minis clearly cost more than others. What you're paying for, along with the profit to the store, cost of licensing, shipping from China, art design and other ancillary costs - is the time the developers spend designing, testing and balancing the various cards and pilots.

Imagine a card pack, for example, that included a "T-65 fix". It would probably have a half dozen or so pilots (unique and generic), maybe a title or two, a couple of new astromechs, maybe some mods, EPTs, possibly even a new torpedo, maybe throw in a couple of rules cards, even a mission - essentially what you'd expect in an aces pack. Which is great, except for two things. First, without a miniature, it's entirely plausible that someone could buy a TFA core and this, and not be able to use it without buying a T-65 expansion - good for FFG maybe, but sire to make the buyer feel particularly cheated if they're a new player.

Perhaps more importantly though, that whole thing fits, effectively, into a packet the size of a magic booster, maybe a tad bigger if they need new bases - more like Destiny maybe. That retails for, what, $5-10? (Australian). But in this scenario, we're effectively talking about an entire aces pack, which costs more like $50 or $60. Even if you strip out a full third of the price to account for less packaging and the cost of the models, you're still looking at a product with an apparent price point somewhere around 5 times that of Magic and other card games. That will for sure scare off at least some potential new players who compare prices in the shop, and even existing players who don't understand the cost structure behind the game would grate at being asked to pay so much and get what would feel like so little.

It feels like a good idea from a player perspective but if you think about it, I think you'll agree it's not really in anyone's best interests - players or developers. Erratta'd cards should, IMO, be prioritised for alt arts and tournament prizes in order get the new text out to players, but that's just me.

I keep hearing about the license and how it doesn’t allow for selling without the mini. For those people who were using that as an argument I have 4 words, “Armada Campaign Expansion Pack”. That’s right an expansion for a miniature game that had new cards and no miniature.

5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Cost/Benefit analysis aside, the optics of doing a bunch of erratas and then selling the upgraded cards back to the players that already own them for a profit is pretty terrible. It would be seen by many people as monetizing game balance and make the situation even worse than it is.

If erratas create the perception of direct profits for FFG, it would create the image of a conflict of interest where FFG can just errata a bunch of cards whenever it wants to make a quick buck off of card packs instead of being motivated by preserving game balance.

Just because they came out with the errata version doesn’t mean it has to invalidate the existing cards. It would just be like now, you use a card that has the wrong wording on it if that’s all you got. I know some people would see it as a money grab, but it wouldn’t be the first time those same people have complained and won’t be the last I’m sure.

5 hours ago, Tvboy said:

More likely it would be other game communities that points at FFG and says "don't play their games, they errata their cards post-release just so they can sell them back to the players for a profit". "Offending someone" is very different from scaring off a large swath of potential players with dubious business practices.

You're right though, there is no right move here, so it makes sense for FFG to do nothing at all, since that is the least risky action they can take.

Also FF does try to put the correct or most up to date wording on their cards when they reprint a product. So if you’re just getting into the game now, your cards shouldn’t be too out of date. So scarring off should be minimal.

You're yelling at a cloud. They never listen to these threads, which pop up every time FFG has done one of these game-changing erratas to their various games for the last 2 years, and they never will. Their official response will always be that they do not offer replacement cards for cards that have been errata'd, that is official company policy.

I prefer to understand why the cloud does what it does instead of yelling at it to change.

13 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Was that Billy madison?

Yep!

I agree with this project

Or maybe they could use their new software division to make an official squad-builder and allow printed lists. Just patch the thing when a new faq arrives. This would facilitate point fixing, wich is much more elegant than this text and icon changes on the cards...

20 minutes ago, Kzar Otto said:

Or maybe they could use their new software division to make an official squad-builder and allow printed lists. Just patch the thing when a new faq arrives. This would facilitate point fixing, wich is much more elegant than this text and icon changes on the cards...

In some cases, although it's also possible for something to be powerful enough that it needs to be priced so high that it never really sees play. In that case, it's probably preferable to lower its power a little so that it can be priced more reasonably.

However, it's certainly good to have more options for how to fix something.

15 hours ago, Tvboy said:

You're yelling at a cloud. They never listen to these threads, which pop up every time FFG has done one of these game-changing erratas to their various games for the last 2 years, and they never will. Their official response will always be that they do not offer replacement cards for cards that have been errata'd, that is official company policy.

I prefer to understand why the cloud does what it does instead of yelling at it to change.

The difference between what I’m suggesting and what others may be demanding is that they wanted free reprints handed to them. I am saying that we pay for the reprint/new pilots at a reasonable price, FF makes money and it’s patrons are happy campers (with the exception of those who always complain, nothing makes them happy).

49 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

I am saying that we pay for the reprint/new pilots at a reasonable price...

Terrain packs with mixed cards so you won't buy the same one or avoid others. Buy three asteroids or a debris field that sits on a large base stand and get 7 pilots and 8 small cards. Big sets with a ~8" radius 'mining station' or 'smuggler's den' come with even more cards and extra dice or movement templates. Maybe even the senator's shuttle that people ask about from time to time.

On 11/3/2017 at 2:30 AM, MacchuWA said:

This comes up constantly. Short answer, they've said definitively that they won't be doing this for X Wings - no card packs without miniatures.

Please provide a link to FFG's statement on that.

On 11/4/2017 at 10:03 AM, DagobahDave said:

Please provide a link to FFG's statement on that.

Right now I don't think such a statement even matters anymore. There was also an interview that state FFG was opposed to erratas in a Netrunner interview. As you can see there has been a 180. So when FFG said there is something they won't be doing or will be doing you can pretty much discard that take it only for a grain of salt.

I don’t think FF thought there would be so much errata. Large numbers tend to change minds. Besides, it’s an opportunity for FF to hit reset on any card that isn’t operating as designed.

9 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Right now I don't think such a statement even matters anymore. There was also an interview that state FFG was opposed to erratas in a Netrunner interview. As you can see there has been a 180. So when FFG said there is something they won't be doing or will be doing you can pretty much discard that.

So because FFG stated that they're releasing the Gunboat and the Kimogila, we can guarantee that those ships will never actually be released?

I'm not sure I like the implications of the whole, "Everything FFG says is 100% incorrect just because they errata'd one ship," thing anymore...

27 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

So because FFG stated that they're releasing the Gunboat and the Kimogila, we can guarantee that those ships will never actually be released?

I'm not sure I like the implications of the whole, "Everything FFG says is 100% incorrect just because they errata'd one ship," thing anymore...

Okay genius, now common sense and dare I say, "business sense" states that such an action is so stupid even you know that will never be the case. As for 1 ship it has been more than just 1 ship it that has been errata (unless you haven't played since Wave 5) and it is going to still be more and more. So saying I'm making all this up for one ship is also incorrect. What is not incorrect is to say that FFG has gone back and reverse some of their decisions (because of one ship or not it doesn't matter). And the production template for their expansions have been completely compromised by the last errata. But no go back to your delusions of return to the golden age of Arc Dodgers and the death of the toilet seats (which has been declared many times before) and cherish that your game is now going to be played your way. I'm looking at the trends and there are causes for concern.

7 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Okay genius, now common sense and dare I say, "business sense" states that such an action is so stupid even you know that will never be the case. As for 1 ship it has been more than just 1 ship it that has been errata (unless you haven't played since Wave 5) and it is going to still be more and more. So saying I'm making all this up for one ship is also incorrect. What is not incorrect is to say that FFG has gone back and reverse some of their decisions (because of one ship or not it doesn't matter). And the production template for their expansions have been completely compromised by the last errata. But no go back to your delusions of return to the golden age of Arc Dodgers and the death of the toilet seats (which has been declared many times before) and cherish that your game is now going to be played your way. I'm looking at the trends and there are causes for concern.

Except that we both know that it is about one errata to one particular ship. In your posts you keep saying stuff like "the production template for their expansions has been completely compromised", based solely on the fact that the Jumpmaster now includes some cards it can't use. Again, however, I would point out that it was not released this way, and when released it could use all the cards that came with it (and I seem to recall people saying they tried several other fixes first before resorting to such a drastic step). Apart from Most Wanted (which had a very specific motive in mind), have any sets actually been released with cards that couldn't be used within the set itself? If so, you may have a point. If not, maybe we should save at least a little of the vitriol and bile for such an occurrence.

As to erratas in general, do you have a link to the interview so we can examine the exact wording and context? Either they decreed that there would be absolutely no erratas (in which case the statement was unreasonable, and them changing their minds is perfectly understandable) or else they may have been saying that they don't like erratas, while still leaving open the possibility that erratas may sometimes be necessary. Even if it's the former, there's still a big gap between, "FFG changed their mind about something that they probably shouldn't have said in the first place," and, "Everything FFG says is wrong."

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Except that we both know that it is about one errata to one particular ship. ...

So you are stuck in wave 5? Yeah that phantom nerf was rough.

The Punishing One Expansion might be the 1st one to be compromised, but it won't be the last. Once you have doe something once, it is easier to do it again (R4 Agromech, Palpatine), and again, (Manaroo, x7) and Again.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

So you are stuck in wave 5? Yeah that phantom nerf was rough.

The Punishing One Expansion might be the 1st one to be compromised, but it won't be the last. Once you have doe something once, it is easier to do it again (R4 Agromech, Palpatine), and again, (Manaroo, x7) and Again.

I wasn't around for Wave 5, and no one mentioned the TIE Phantom, so I'm not really sure how either of those are relevant to the current discussion.

17 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I wasn't around for Wave 5, and no one mentioned the TIE Phantom, so I'm not really sure how either of those are relevant to the current discussion.

It shows. Basically all you had to do was replace Jumpmasters with YTs and you had the forum. The only difference is FFG wasn't so eager to dump ink on distributed components. Fat Han broke the meta first and before x7 Defenders there was the Phantom and the pre nerf cloak which killed the meta forcing everyone to go to YTs if they didn't want to get wiped out by Whisper. Ironically Fat Han was not so good against the very first meta leader, the TIE Swarm.

But the forums were all with an uproar of NERF HAN SOLO NERF TIE PHANTOMS and such. TIE Phantom was the first to get hit (which was 2nd in the meta) and everyone cheered as they thought it would bring back the TIE Swarm and end Fat Han. It didn't, ironically it was replacing turret options where you hat Fat Han which was soon following the path of the TIE Swarm as yesteryear's champion, the Super Dash with the YT-2400 was a great turret that could destroy TIE Swarms, but ironically was weak to none other than TIE Phantoms (prenerf) and Soontir (post cloak nerf) who in turn had their own turret to keep off the other arc dodger the 40+ point Decimator. Thus the two ship meta was born.

So in relevance all this nerf that and stuff I have seen before, all the false hope and praise when something finally gets nerfed I have seen before. What wasn't seen was changing distributed items as if it was some patch in an online game (which X-wing is not). So you are late to the party, but if you were there you can clearly see a change in design philosophy from then and now. Given how much the game has grown there had to be some changes, there can be no debate on that. However the changes that were made can be debated if they were the correct ones.

Given that there is one expansion now with cards you cannot use in competitive right now it is only one product but it will soon go to more. Maybe not any of the future expansion packs but the older ones absolutely (which is why I think FFG needs a radical adjustment of their business model to include card packs). As for my guess on the next product to be hit is the classic core set. Sure it may have the errata biggs but soon the old damage deck will be prohibited from tournament play and FFG might decide to not switch out the component thus giving new players that bought a classic core set a damage deck that is useless in competitive play. From there, who knows.

40 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

It shows. Basically all you had to do was replace Jumpmasters with YTs and you had the forum. The only difference is FFG wasn't so eager to dump ink on distributed components. Fat Han broke the meta first and before x7 Defenders there was the Phantom and the pre nerf cloak which killed the meta forcing everyone to go to YTs if they didn't want to get wiped out by Whisper. Ironically Fat Han was not so good against the very first meta leader, the TIE Swarm.

But the forums were all with an uproar of NERF HAN SOLO NERF TIE PHANTOMS and such. TIE Phantom was the first to get hit (which was 2nd in the meta) and everyone cheered as they thought it would bring back the TIE Swarm and end Fat Han. It didn't, ironically it was replacing turret options where you hat Fat Han which was soon following the path of the TIE Swarm as yesteryear's champion, the Super Dash with the YT-2400 was a great turret that could destroy TIE Swarms, but ironically was weak to none other than TIE Phantoms (prenerf) and Soontir (post cloak nerf) who in turn had their own turret to keep off the other arc dodger the 40+ point Decimator. Thus the two ship meta was born.

So in relevance all this nerf that and stuff I have seen before, all the false hope and praise when something finally gets nerfed I have seen before. What wasn't seen was changing distributed items as if it was some patch in an online game (which X-wing is not). So you are late to the party, but if you were there you can clearly see a change in design philosophy from then and now. Given how much the game has grown there had to be some changes, there can be no debate on that. However the changes that were made can be debated if they were the correct ones.

Given that there is one expansion now with cards you cannot use in competitive right now it is only one product but it will soon go to more. Maybe not any of the future expansion packs but the older ones absolutely (which is why I think FFG needs a radical adjustment of their business model to include card packs). As for my guess on the next product to be hit is the classic core set. Sure it may have the errata biggs but soon the old damage deck will be prohibited from tournament play and FFG might decide to not switch out the component thus giving new players that bought a classic core set a damage deck that is useless in competitive play. From there, who knows.

Ok, that explains it a bit more. I guess I was a bit confused because in this topic, at least, there wasn't really much praise of the nerf or hope that it would fix things, so much as there was a little talk about card packs and a lot of talk about bubblegum.

So, back to the real topic, it would certainly be nice to see new pilots and whatnot (though I'm not necessarily a fan of making more cross-faction ships), but I don't think card packs are necessarily a fix to the issue. One of the primary complaints that I've seen is that a new player buying a product won't necessarily realize that the product has been errata'd, and I don't see how having card packs really fixes that. If someone knows of an errata, they can play according to the errata whether they have a physically updated card or not. If they don't know about an errata, they won't know to buy the pack in the first place.

Of course, if FFG were to produce packs and include old pilots, they should absolutely have the most-recent-printing. It just doesn't fix the basic problem, is what I'm saying.

15 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Ok, that explains it a bit more. I guess I was a bit confused because in this topic, at least, there wasn't really much praise of the nerf or hope that it would fix things, so much as there was a little talk about card packs and a lot of talk about bubblegum.

So, back to the real topic, it would certainly be nice to see new pilots and whatnot (though I'm not necessarily a fan of making more cross-faction ships), but I don't think card packs are necessarily a fix to the issue. One of the primary complaints that I've seen is that a new player buying a product won't necessarily realize that the product has been errata'd, and I don't see how having card packs really fixes that. If someone knows of an errata, they can play according to the errata whether they have a physically updated card or not. If they don't know about an errata, they won't know to buy the pack in the first place.

Of course, if FFG were to produce packs and include old pilots, they should absolutely have the most-recent-printing. It just doesn't fix the basic problem, is what I'm saying.

Back on topic, yeah cross faction ships, not so much needed although some more Imperial/Scum bounty hunters would be nice. However that requires you to have cardboard tiles with the matching faction. Which to be honest the concept of a card only rotation pack doesn't include such items. Only pilots that are already released and the idea is that the pilots that are released get entirely new pilot cards (upgrade cards are just rotated out if they are not reprinted). For the most part the pilot skill and FAHS attributes stay the same (because that is what is on the cardboard tile) but everything else from point cost to even action bar (S-foil actions) to even the upgrade slots (EPT on a Red Squadron Pilot anyone) can be added, changed, ore removed.

However as someone else on the forums have pointed out such a radical change to the business model is more like an X-wing 2.0 or 2nd edition where you have not only just the model components but the pilot/upgrade cards as well to consider for the meta. I think FFG will need to get a little more experience with that because if anticipating how new items will affect the meta is hard enough, start to take things out of the meta will make predicting the direction that much more difficult. So difficult it would give all the math wingers a headache unless they really, really, really love differential equations (who wants to do a mixture problem?). We should keep a close eye on how FFG handles Netrunner with rotations first. IF that goes well then the likes of 2.0 where models and pilots remain but pilot cards are revamped and reprinted and upgrade cards are replaced and recycled.

On 11/3/2017 at 3:21 AM, JediPartisan said:

Why doesn’t Fantasy Flight sell pilot packs? New pilot cards (tokens too) for existing ships, sold like baseball cards (without the gum).

To heck with that, ...

I want the bubblegum too!

*sometimes I come for the laughs and have to make them myself... "I'm here all week, try the veal."

On 11/3/2017 at 1:21 AM, JediPartisan said:

Why doesn’t Fantasy Flight sell pilot packs? New pilot cards (tokens too) for existing ships, sold like baseball cards (without the gum).

This way there can be a Scum pilot who flys a yt1300, or a rebel pilot that flys a JumpMaster.

Not all waves need to have new ships and this would only cost Fantasy Flight pennies to make with a much higher returned dollar value.

This can also be a way to replace existing cards that have been added to the ever growing list of errata. Fantasy Flight can make some decent money and still keep these at a low price and we could get replacement cards (Win Win).

I brought this up here, in hopes that Fantasy Flight would hear and think about it, but I think the only way this can happen is if enough people ask for it.

So please make some noise if you want those replacement cards or even just new pilots.

I got two GfH because I got so excited for running 3 Vipers with new toys.

I’d totally get pilot packs.