I went up against a 3x2 block of lancers the other day and man, was that brutal. They’re super tanky, and he had a crazy combo with Dispatch Runner and...Tempered Steel? (surge to hit). Anyway, I flanked them with a 9 block of reanimated and fired a bunch of archers into them, and they still came out ahead. Any advice for dealing with those crazy worms?

Run?

Who do you play?

Which unit are they putting dispatch runner in?

Is this a regular opponent? What do your guys list normally look like?

I had my own Carrion Lancer, single tray, with Rank Discipline, attack the flank while Ardus attacked the front. Ardus died in one hit, then my 3x2 of Reanimates came in. There was a critical moment where my opponent had to rally away the blight from my Reanimates' Blighted Vexillum Bearer, or else my flanking Carrion Lancer would have dealt mortal strikes like crazy! This allowed my Reanimates a good second round of combat at 3 threat in order to tip the scales. When the enemy unit did attack, the worms took off the whole back rank of my Reanimates in one hit. It was a close one. All the while, my little worm just kept chomping away, and before long, they had no rerolls against what was left of my Reanimates, and they eventually fell.

I thought about Reanimates w/ Support Carrion Lancer + Death Caller + Simultaneous Orders, but those worms will get you after only one or two uses - barely enough to take one worm off the back. Adding speed bumps gets tricky because then the enemy is engaged, and is immune to your Support Carrion Lancer's blight.

I guess the reason I won was because they spent a round rallying instead of attacking. I'm trying to think of other ways to keep them from attacking. (Also, I got lucky with morale and made one of his Lancers run away with Loss of Faith.)

I run that formation a lot as it has been one of my few good anti-Latari undead units. The things that have gotten me:

-Enough sacrificial roadblocks. Feed solo figures to it and big it down. If the 78 point unit spends the game killing 2-3 14-18 point units, that should free your army to hit the other formations

-Blight it. Blight is the ultimate sanction against expensive blocks.

-Objective it. Lancers feel fast because the Waiqar are soooo sloooooowwwww. They are still slow-ish. Go run around, refuse to fight, and bag objective tokens.

-Keep giving the formation stuns and immobilize. Lancers are Waiqar’s most resistant unit to these, but you can force them to have to move straight forward or lose a turn to reform.

Mirror matches can be tough. Esp since you are undead. Elfs have an easy solution in multiple Scions with Vicious Roots, not that this helps you. Without knowing your exact list here is something you could try:

List

Ardus 37

6 Reanimates 35

Support Lancer - 6

Lancer 18

Archer 18

CI - 6

Archer 18

CI - 6

Total 144

56 Points on whatever else

So first, This may seem like a good chunk of change BUT Ardus will have nothing to do with the 6 tray lancer. He is there so you can produce the reanimates at 35 points.

Strategy:

Setup: Place Archers in a position where they can shoot lancer block, line up animates and lancer in front of lancer block. Put your Lancer in a position where it can take the charge before your animates

First Turn: Them: Lancer block Moves

You: Move Lancer in front of animate block. Don’t move so far forward where lancer block can get charge if possible

Second turn: Them: Lancer block moves

You: Archers, support lancer on reanimates, and solo lancer get blight - Total Blight: 4-5

Third Turn: Them: Hopefully they can’t charge

You: You charge their block with solo lancer or take charge.

Use Blight to reduce their attack to no dice

Solo lancer Mortal strikes one down

Use Archers and support lance on animates to get two-three more blight

4 ^th Turn: Them: They attack

You: Archers focus elsewhere from now on

Lancer Mortal Strikes one down

Use Blight to reduce their attack to no dice or 1 red dice (less chance for Mortal strike)

5 ^th Turn: Them: They probably kill your lancer

You: If you have priority mortal strike one down before they kill your lancer

Reanimate block charges in and holds them for rest of game

Meanwhile you have Ardus running around the board and whatever else you were able to get with your 56 points.

You are devoting about 40 more points to hold the lancer block up then it costs (assuming it is naked) , but hopefully the way it affects their strategy will be worth more than at. You may be using Ardus to protect your group of guys here too. Also, starting turn 4 your archers are focused elsewhere. Another problem is they scored points off your lancer and you probably aren’t killing their block unless you get lucky with mortal strikes on your lancer speed bump.

I would say hopefully if their lancer block doesn’t do anything a few games they will try something different but if they spent 50+ dollars on lancers they are probably going to want to continue to use them.

Inversely, use your own 6 tray carrion block

Anybody, feel free to destroy this strategy, lol.

I have a feeling I might have been that guy, @Ailowynn : Did we play in Louisville, CO? I was just jumping on the forum to ask the same question. I've been running the block and they seem literally unbeatable.

I ran the block of 6 Lancers with Master Crafted Weapons and Combat Ingenuity, backed up by a block of reanimates that contained dispatch runner. Turns 1 and 2 the Lancers built up inspiration and moved up the board. They charged and killed Maro outright, then got flanked by 9 reanimates, who did some decent damage, killing 1 or 2 of the lancers. But then all **** broke loose: The lancers were attacking twice per round, thanks to dispatch runner and slaked off the stun tokens with their built up inspiration. Meanwhile, units of archers with combat ingenuity were piling blight on the block of reanimates and taking away all or most of their dice so that they did almost no damage in return after that initial charge.

Last night I played against a Daqan opponent with the same army, similar result. His 9 tray block of spearmen did do considerable damage to the lancers, and he also got a 4-tray block of oathsworn into their flank also doing considerable damage at the outset. But again, I piled on Blight on both oathsworn and spearmen, really reducing their effectiveness, I got Ardus into the flank of the spearmen to help out too. The result was that by the end of turn 5, I was down to 1 Lancer, Ardus was down to 1 wound, and all my opponent had left on the table was 3 trays of Latari archers who were pretty much surrounded.

Anyway, until someone figures out a way to deal with them, I'll probably keep them on the shelf except for competitive tournaments, they are just too good.

At the moment, the best I can figure out to deal with them are basically outplaying/outrolling them with a mirror unit from Waiqar, or Daqans could probably defeat them with a well-played huge block of oathsworn, properly supported with dispatch runner, rallying cornicen, and Hawthorne. But I don't think there's any way that infantry or archers could defeat them.

The only other idea I have is to run MSU against them. Feed them a couple of 2-tray blocks of infantry or archers, and then just work the rest of the army to pieces with more mobile oathsworn and maybe ranged attacks.

You were indeed the guy

(And dammit, you weren’t supposed to see this! I was gonna have all sorts of new secret tactics for next time we play ).

1 minute ago, Ailowynn said:

You were indeed the guy

(And dammit, you weren’t supposed to see this! I was gonna have all sorts of new secret tactics for next time we play ).

Ha! I figured... I think I'm going leave that unit on the shelf going forward unless someone requests to play against it, i.e., they want to try out a strategy against it.

I think the only way to defeat it at the moment is with massive blocks of your own, like your own lancers or maybe a couple of 9 tray or 12 tray blocks of reanimates. But I don't know anyone in our area with that kind of collection yet. Frankly, even the 6 lancer block is a hefty investment.

Maybe when death knights come out they'll be able to dish out enough mortal wounds fast enough to put a dent in the lancer block. But I see little hope for Daqan now or on the horizon. Maybe tons of oathsworn, or maybe two blocks of spearmen, each with eagle banner, backed up by Hawthorne to pump out enough inspiration to keep the banner charged up.

Hmm... @Ailowynn , reading the new FAQ just now made me realize that I was accidentally cheating with that lancer block. I realize that I have been totally misunderstanding "Contacted Edge". In our game I was always multiplying damage by the number of trays in the front rank, not by the number of trays in the contacted edge, which would have been the two-tray flank for you. Or, it could have been a one-tray flank since you did kill at least one lancer with that initial charge. In other words, I should have only been doing 4-5 damage to your reanimate block per turn, instead of 12-15. That's a huge change!

...sorry... I guess we still need to learn the rules better.

....WUUUUUUUT?

It never processed to me that threat would be based on your facing. Huh. Strange. That’s good to know.

3 hours ago, Ailowynn said:

....WUUUUUUUT?

It never processed to me that threat would be based on your facing. Huh. Strange. That’s good to know.

I think what confused me was a while back we were trying to figure out what "contacted edge" meant and it took a while to realize that is was the number of trays on the contacted edge, not just the number of trays you're in contact with. For example, a three-wide unit attacks a single-wide unit. The three-wide still counts all three trays as the contacted edge, not just the one contacted edge.

Fast forward to the last couple of weeks and I think I was misconstruing that rule somehow to mean that the contacted edge is always the front... my bad.

I think it's also fair to say that Reanimate Archers are putting in just as much as the Carrion Lancers in that scenario since their blight is the reason the worms won't die. So it's not the Lancers alone that seem unbeatable.

2 hours ago, Elliphino said:

Fast forward to the last couple of weeks and I think I was misconstruing that rule somehow to mean that the contacted edge is always the front... my bad.

Oh, it’s no problem, it was still a fun game. Definitely still in that “learning the rules” phase

2 hours ago, Budgernaut said:

I think it's also fair to say that Reanimate Archers are putting in just as much as the Carrion Lancers in that scenario since their blight is the reason the worms won't die. So it's not the Lancers alone that seem unbeatable.

The archers actually didn’t blight my guys much if at all, they mostly focused on Ardus (and completely neutered him). Of course, the support unit with Dispatch stunner was a big deal...might have been a better decision to go after them, in retrospect.

Their difficulty moving around terrain is key, most games I can dodge them all eight turns. Whilst killing the rest of their army. Every army I build has 4 wind runes. Set a terrain piece 2.9 trays from a board edge so they don't fit. then another piece 2.9 trays from a piece of terrain you opponent placed if you can, often they can be denied 1/3 of the board. With Latari I love to see them. Leonox get on it's flank and charge. Then next turn withdraw on initiative 2 or 3 depending if you have raven tabard. Receiving no attack back and reposition to do it again and I also have 2 Scion units with Vicious roots. I never run archers so they have no good target to lumber towards. Aliana on turn 8 with ambush predator and pack leaders spear gets you a few points off them if you need 1 mortal strike and 11 damage before any dice are rolled. Just charge on initiative 7 after their attack. But mostly dont run archers and run circles around them and root and run again.

On 10/25/2017 at 11:36 PM, Drakoniss said:

Their difficulty moving around terrain is key, most games I can dodge them all eight turns. Whilst killing the rest of their army. Every army I build has 4 wind runes. Set a terrain piece 2.9 trays from a board edge so they don't fit. then another piece 2.9 trays from a piece of terrain you opponent placed if you can, often they can be denied 1/3 of the board. With Latari I love to see them. Leonox get on it's flank and charge. Then next turn withdraw on initiative 2 or 3 depending if you have raven tabard. Receiving no attack back and reposition to do it again and I also have 2 Scion units with Vicious roots. I never run archers so they have no good target to lumber towards. Aliana on turn 8 with ambush predator and pack leaders spear gets you a few points off them if you need 1 mortal strike and 11 damage before any dice are rolled. Just charge on initiative 7 after their attack. But mostly dont run archers and run circles around them and root and run again.

I’m not thrilled that The recommended Counter-strategy to non-archer units almost always involves the phrase “Spam Wind Runes.”

On 10/25/2017 at 0:10 PM, Elliphino said:

Ha! I figured... I think I'm going leave that unit on the shelf going forward unless someone requests to play against it, i.e., they want to try out a strategy against it.

I think the only way to defeat it at the moment is with massive blocks of your own, like your own lancers or maybe a couple of 9 tray or 12 tray blocks of reanimates. But I don't know anyone in our area with that kind of collection yet. Frankly, even the 6 lancer block is a hefty investment.

Maybe when death knights come out they'll be able to dish out enough mortal wounds fast enough to put a dent in the lancer block. But I see little hope for Daqan now or on the horizon. Maybe tons of oathsworn, or maybe two blocks of spearmen, each with eagle banner, backed up by Hawthorne to pump out enough inspiration to keep the banner charged up.

What was in the rest of your list?

6 hours ago, Church14 said:

I’m not thrilled that The recommended Counter-strategy to non-archer units almost always involves the phrase “Spam Wind Runes.”

4 Wind Rune and 4 Raven tabard are auto include for every unit in almost every list that I have made since the first day. I can't even imagine willing playing without them. Wind Rune is like a 12 point upgrade on things with a white skill modifier that's shoots. 3x1 crossbows with wind Rune and rank discipline have been insanely powerful yesterday and today.

23 hours ago, Church14 said:

I’m not thrilled that The recommended Counter-strategy to non-archer units almost always involves the phrase “Spam Wind Runes.”

Nonsense.

Wind Rune is wildly overrated, overpriced, and unreliable. There's only so much room to run away. Eventually you have to take some ground.

1 hour ago, Tvayumat said:

Nonsense.

Wind Rune is wildly overrated, overpriced, and unreliable. There's only so much room to run away. Eventually you have to take some ground.

Your experience is atypical from what I’m seeing. I see plenty on if Wind Runes are broken or fair, but nobody else saying they are overcosted.

My experience has been that smart players running wind runes stick near terrain. You don’t need infinite distance if you can play ring around the Rosie by a rock or spikes.

4 minutes ago, Church14 said:

Your experience is atypical from what I’m seeing. I see plenty on if Wind Runes are broken or fair, but nobody else saying they are overcosted.

My experience has been that smart players running wind runes stick near terrain. You don’t need infinite distance if you can play ring around the Rosie by a rock or spikes.

Whenever I see this I picture one guy running in circles after another guy, and wonder... Where the heck is your second guy to pin him.

7 hours ago, Church14 said:

Your experience is atypical from what I’m seeing. I see plenty on if Wind Runes are broken or fair, but nobody else saying they are overcosted.

My experience has been that smart players running wind runes stick near terrain. You don’t need infinite distance if you can play ring around the Rosie by a rock or spikes.

I'm looking forward to trying out a 3x2 heartseeking crossbowmen unit.

8 hours ago, Church14 said:

Your experience is atypical from what I’m seeing. I see plenty on if Wind Runes are broken or fair, but nobody else saying they are overcosted.

My experience has been that smart players running wind runes stick near terrain. You don’t need infinite distance if you can play ring around the Rosie by a rock or spikes.

If you're spending half of a unit's dial constantly dancing around a single piece of terrain, I will happily let that unit dance itself silly while I mop up the rest and seize the objective.

Wind Rune can be used for some shenanigans in a clinch. It's not a strategy in itself.

In my experience, which is... man I wish I kept track... a lot of games let's say, Wind Rune costs more than it's worth. 6 Pts for an upgrade that *might* do something cool and, just as easily *might* do nothing at all is, IMO, generally poor investment, particularly considering the heavy opportunity cost for the Equipment slot. The moment someone engages you (which is really not difficult at all to do on a 3' wide table) the upgrade is essentially a reform that costs you 6 pts.

EDIT:

On the original subject, overcoming the Wormstar... you've gotta hit it hard, and not give it a chance to fight back. Engage on the flank with a high damage unit and hammer it twice per turn with Dispatch Stunner. It'll go down. I lost a Wormstar today to six trays of Oathsworn backed up with DR, and they barely even got an attack in edge-wise. Think I took two trays of oathsworn in return. Not a great return on my investment, and definitely a reminder of how shallow (if powerful) a tool they are. Stuns are horribly debilitating, as are blight.

On October 27, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Glucose98 said:

What was in the rest of your list?

My list was

6 lancers with master crafted weapons and combat ingenuity

Ardus, with some upgrade I can't remember

4 trays of Reanimates with Dispatch Runner and Marching Drummer

2x, 2 trays of archers with combat ingenuity

I'm pretty sure that was it, give or take an upgrade.

Now that I have some Death Knights, I'll swap out Ardus (He has trouble keeping up with the worms and protecting their flank) and will upgrade the Reanimate block to 6 trays to keep the necessary upgrades. Plus, the bigger block of Reanimates should also be able to protect a flank a little better.

On October 28, 2017 at 8:44 PM, Tvayumat said:

On the original subject, overcoming the Wormstar... you've gotta hit it hard, and not give it a chance to fight back. Engage on the flank with a high damage unit and hammer it twice per turn with Dispatch Stunner. It'll go down. I lost a Wormstar today to six trays of Oathsworn backed up with DR, and they barely even got an attack in edge-wise. Think I took two trays of oathsworn in return. Not a great return on my investment, and definitely a reminder of how shallow (if powerful) a tool they are. Stuns are horribly debilitating, as are blight.

I think you're right on this. It's **** important to protect the wormstar's flank or it can be dealt with.

I think the other issue inherent in your experience of getting hit with six Oathsworn is the state of the meta game. For better or worse at the moment, I think I'm the only player in our area that has something like a unit of six lancers or six Oathsworn. A lot of folks have 9 tray infantry blocks because they've split core boxes. But as far as I know I'm the only one who's put a bigger investment into a unit like 6 lancers as RWM is my main game at the moment. A lot of others are splitting their resources into X-Wing, or Destiny, or 40k. In a sad sense, I kind of won that game in the "purchase models" phase.