1 minute ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I have no problem with this idea either. My comment is that given the description of the Oni's weapon.....that's no longer a Tetsubo. Whatever it may look like, if it's effect is that of a razor-sharp, one handed, decapitating weapon, why not just use the stats for a blade?

Because the stats for a blade can be significantly worse than these for a tetsubo. Also a blade could not fit the pciture you have from your samurai and whci weapons he uses.

15 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

If you suceed is a reference to the dice check because thats the instance you have to suceed in to actually deal the damage.
The first part is just what happens regardeless of you suceeding or not.

And the only thing that is being checked for the damage is that you have suceeded in the martial arts check.

You can not make the attack because the Naginata (and other 2-handed grip only weapons) does not have a 1-handed grip statline. The action fails because you can not perform the primary effect (readying the weapon in a 1-handed grip). Just like how you can not use the enhanced deadliness of the Katana, Wakazashi and Knife 2-handed grips when making an Iaijutsu attack.

11 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

Because the stats for a blade can be significantly worse than these for a tetsubo. Also a blade could not fit the pciture you have from your samurai and whci weapons he uses.

The appropriate stats in that case would be a Razor-edged club not a razor edged tetsubo.

2 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

You can not make the attack because the Naginata (and other 2-handed grip only weapons) does not have a 1-handed grip statline. The action fails because you can not perform the primary effect.

Just like how you can not use the enhanced deadliness of the Katana, Wakazashi and Knife 2-handed grips.

Thats not how the mechanic works. All you need to activate the technique is in th activation line.
The effect happens while you draw the weapon and thats why the one handed grip is the result independent of the sucess of the test or not.
The sucess related part refers only to the attack roll and therefore you can deal dmg even if you do not end up with the one handed grip.

3 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The appropriate stats in that case would be a Razor-edged club not a razor edged tetsubo.

No because a razoredeged Tesubo still has the stats of a tetsubo. Also it is perfectly fine useable with the current iaijutsu ruless,w hcih btw are being reworked as we speak.
So I just hope they word the prequisites better this time.

Just now, Teveshszat said:

Thats not how the mechanic works. All you need to activate the technique is in th activation line.
The effect happens while you draw the weapon and thats why the one handed grip is the result independent of the sucess of the test or not.
The sucess related part refers only to the attack roll and therefore you can deal dmg even if you do not end up with the one handed grip.

The success or failure of the technique does not matter because you can not apply the effects of the action.

You can attempt Iaijutsu with a Naginata but nothing will happen as you can not draw and ready a Naginata (or other 2-handed Razor-Edged weapon) in a one-handed grip.

You need to resolve effects in order and you can not resolve an impossible effect.

20 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

The success or failure of the technique does not matter because you can not apply the effects of the action.

You can attempt Iaijutsu with a Naginata but nothing will happen as you can not draw and ready a Naginata (or other 2-handed Razor-Edged weapon) in a one-handed grip.

You need to resolve effects in order and you can not resolve an impossible effect.

Nope that is not how it works.
The only thing you need to apply the technique is to sucessfully activate it.
The effect is just what happens. Not what is necassary to activate it.
When you resolve the effect part 1 does not happen but part 2 still does as nowhere is said that when an effect part can not happen the whole effect does not happen.

22 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

You need to resolve effects in order and you can not resolve an impossible effect.

The opposite is true.

From the rulebook, highlight by me: Each technique lists the effects that occur after the character performs the activation. Each paragraph represents a distinct effect. See Actions on page 155 for more details on resolving action effects. Effects that begin with “If you succeed” only resolve if the check specified in the activation was successful. Effects that begin with “If you fail” only resolve if the check specified in the activation was unsuccessful.

Distinction implies independents. There is no one handed grip for the naginata do you do not ready the naginata in that grip. The "if you succeed" part of the technique will however be executed.

So from a strict reading of the rules you make the attack with the naginata, but the weapon remains sheated.

I will give you immidiately that it makes no freaking sense... But this is why we currently playtest the rules...

9 hours ago, Teveshszat said:

Nope that is not how it works.
The only thing you need to apply the technique is to sucessfully activate it.
The effect is just what happens. Not what is necassary to activate it.
When you resolve the effect part 1 does not happen but part 2 still does as nowhere is said that when an effect part can not happen the whole effect does not happen.

You have created an impossible to resolve state bug. The technique can not proceed to the next effect because the data does not exist. You can activate the technique but the game will technically freeze because there is no rule on how to resolve impossible effects.

9 hours ago, Yandia said:

The opposite is true.

From the rulebook, highlight by me: Each technique lists the effects that occur after the character performs the activation. Each paragraph represents a distinct effect. See Actions on page 155 for more details on resolving action effects. Effects that begin with “If you succeed” only resolve if the check specified in the activation was successful. Effects that begin with “If you fail” only resolve if the check specified in the activation was unsuccessful.

Distinction implies independents. There is no one handed grip for the naginata do you do not ready the naginata in that grip. The "if you succeed" part of the technique will however be executed.

So from a strict reading of the rules you make the attack with the naginata, but the weapon remains sheated.

I will give you immidiately that it makes no freaking sense... But this is why we currently playtest the rules...

Page 155, Step 3 Resolve effects:

Quote

Then, the character resolves the effects of the action. Each paragraph in the “effects” section of the action denotes a single, distinct effect, which are resolved as described below:

• If an effect begins with “If you succeed,” resolve it only if the character succeeded on the check.

• If an effect begins with “If you fail,” resolve it only if the character failed on the check.

• If an effect lists any other requirements, those requirements must be met for it to resolve.

• If an effect lists no requirements, it occurs automatically.

These effects of an action are resolved in the order they appear in that action.

Bullet point 4 is where the error occurs.

11 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

You have created an impossible to resolve state bug. The technique can not proceed to the next effect because the data does not exist. You can activate the technique but the game will technically freeze because there is no rule on how to resolve impossible effects.

Page 155, Step 3 Resolve effects:

Bullet point 4 is where the error occurs.

Yeah but the requirement for the effect are written in the activation not in the effect it self.
Therefore while the one handed grip is part of it, it is still not a requirement for it.
Therefore no error occurs here.
It is as @Yandere said you just resolve the part that can be resolved which is the if you suceed part and ignore the rest of the effect because
it can´t be resolved.

Is there anywhere in the rules that it says you resolve what you can and ignore what you can't? I know that's how the LCG works, but is that specifically stated in the RPG?

All I can say about this Razor-Edge & Iaijutsu is good thing this is a beta, and we're finding these problems now lol

Funny thing is that strike with no thought ask for a sheated katana or wakizashi instead of using tags.

29 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Is there anywhere in the rules that it says you resolve what you can and ignore what you can't? I know that's how the LCG works, but is that specifically stated in the RPG?

All I can say about this Razor-Edge & Iaijutsu is good thing this is a beta, and we're finding these problems now lol

This exsists in the rule book as yandere explained

10 hours ago, Yandia said:

The opposite is true.

From the rulebook, highlight by me: Each technique lists the effects that occur after the character performs the activation. Each paragraph represents a distinct effect. See Actions on page 155 for more details on resolving action effects. Effects that begin with “If you succeed” only resolve if the check specified in the activation was successful. Effects that begin with “If you fail” only resolve if the check specified in the activation was unsuccessful.

Distinction implies independents. There is no one handed grip for the naginata do you do not ready the naginata in that grip. The "if you succeed" part of the technique will however be executed.

So from a strict reading of the rules you make the attack with the naginata, but the weapon remains sheated.

Eachparagraph is treated seperately so if one does not resolve the rest still does as long as the paragrap on its own can resolve.

51 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

Yeah but the requirement for the effect are written in the activation not in the effect it self.
Therefore while the one handed grip is part of it, it is still not a requirement for it.
Therefore no error occurs here.

One-handed grip is a requirement on the "Draw and ready."

53 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

It is as @Yandere said you just resolve the part that can be resolved which is the if you suceed part and ignore the rest of the effect because
it can´t be resolved.

No you can not because there is no rule by RAW that allows you to skip/ignore effects you cannot resolve by RAW.

1 minute ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

One-handed grip is a requirement on the "Draw and ready."

No the requirements are in the activation tab.
The effect tab is what happens when you meet the requirements.

Just now, Teveshszat said:

No the requirements are in the activatin tab.
The effect tab is what happens when you meet the requirements.

Nope, Effects can list other requirements within them: Page 155

If an effect lists any other requirements, those requirements must be met for it to resolve.

The activation requirements and effect requirements are not linked.

4 minutes ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Nope, Effects can list other requirements within them: Page 155

Page 155 specifies what the conditions for an effect are.
But it does not say that it negates all other following effects if one of them
is not able to resolve.
Actually it says quiet clearly that each parapgraph is a distinct single effect.
That means that yes the one handed grip does not happen but thjhe next paragraph
still does happen.
Now the next starts with if you sucee, which refers to the martial arts test not to the effect
that came before. So as long as you pass the martial arts check you stil get the effect.

16 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

This exsists in the rule book as yandere explained

Then I'm glad this is a beta - and I hope FFG considers what they should do to keep the mechanics in line with the theme, fantasy, and intent of the design.

It sounds to me like Iaijutsu is currently not working as intended.

The actual "bug" would be that after the action (that can be activated, by RAW not RAI) you are readying the nagina in a one handed grip (which does not exist).

If it was a videogame, your character would'nt have animations basically.

57 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Is there anywhere in the rules that it says you resolve what you can and ignore what you can't? I know that's how the LCG works, but is that specifically stated in the RPG?

All I can say about this Razor-Edge & Iaijutsu is good thing this is a beta, and we're finding these problems now lol

Diffrent effects with in one ability are seperated by paragraph. They are not linked in any way, shape or from, because they decribed as destinct. So each happen (or do not happen) seperately. That is essence what distinct means.

Sometimes they are tied to the activation via “If you succeed,” and “If you fail,”, but one effect can't influence the other effects within one ability.

So everything which can happen, will happen... The rest will not. A naginata has no one-handed grip so you can't draw and ready the thing. But that doen't influence other effects so the “If you succeed,” effect resolves seperately.

Also to be able to put Razor-edged on every weapon is extremly weird. I shoot with my razor-edged yumi against a wall and the yumi becomes damaged, because I attacked something with to much damage resistence.

And yes the whole iaijutsu/razor-edged stuff needs some rewriting. Because I think the basiclly framework of abilities seem to be quite sturdy and can clearly be followed in edge cases.

19 minutes ago, Teveshszat said:

Page 155 specifies what the conditions for an effect are.
But it does not say that it negates all other following effects if one of them
is not able to resolve.
Actually it says quiet clearly that each parapgraph is a distinct single effect.
That means that yes the one handed grip does not happen but thjhe next paragraph
still does happen.
Now the next starts with if you sucee, which refers to the martial arts test not to the effect
that came before. So as long as you pass the martial arts check you stil get the effect.

And nothing says skip effect if it can not be resolved.

You are ruling zeroing to skip a effect that becomes impossible to resolve by RAW.

Your attempt to use a bug in the Iaijutsu kata is inadvertently being stopped by a bug caused by a missing rule in the effect resolution rules.

7 minutes ago, Mobiusllls said:

The actual "bug" would be that after the action (that can be activated, by RAW not RAI) you are readying the nagina in a one handed grip (which does not exist).

If it was a videogame, your character would'nt have animations basically.

If this was a video game the error that the bug would trigger would vary based on programing. Possibilities include:

• Locking up due to inability to load in correct data. (File Not Found error)
• Loading junk data and then proceeding with the junk data. (FF6 style Drill helmet glitch)

1 minute ago, Yandia said:

Diffrent effects with in one ability are seperated by paragraph. They are not linked in any way, shape or from, because they decribed as destinct. So each happen (or do not happen) seperately. That is essence what distinct means.

They may be distinct but they are resolved in order and no rule currently exists that allows effects that can not be resolved to be skipped.

Just now, Ultimatecalibur said:

They may be distinct but they are resolved in order and no rule currently exists that allows effects that can not be resolved to be skipped.

No rule exists that they have to be resolved in order. You can actually argue the opposite. Since they are distinct, they should be abe to be resolved in any order or even parallel, because they will not influence each other.

Just now, Yandia said:

No rule exists that they have to be resolved in order. You can actually argue the opposite. Since they are distinct, they should be abe to be resolved in any order or even parallel, because they will not influence each other.

Wrong. page 155:

These effects of an action are resolved in the order they appear in that action.

1 minute ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

And nothing says skip effect if it can not be resolved.

You are ruling zeroing to skip a effect that becomes impossible to resolve by RAW.

Your attempt to use a bug in the Iaijutsu kata is inadvertently being stopped by a bug caused by a missing rule in the effect resolution rules.

If this was a video game the error that the bug would trigger would vary based on programing. Possibilities include:

• Locking up due to inability to load in correct data. (File Not Found error)
• Loading junk data and then proceeding with the junk data. (FF6 style Drill helmet glitch)

They may be distinct but they are resolved in order and no rule currently exists that allows effects that can not be resolved to be skipped.

Acutally that rule says that they just don´t happen. You qouted it yourself.
- If there are any other requirements needed for it to resolve these requirements must be met.
Now they are not met so effect 1 does not resolve.

Effect 2 is a different distinct effect that is not connected to effect one. Therefore it is checked indipendiently from effect one.
Now lets look at effects 2 requirements, which is the sucess of the martial arts action, these are met so the effect resolves.
There s no rule that is actually contradicting that or saying if 1 effect does not reseolve all effect do not resolve.
Acutally the rules are quiet clear that all effects of one action that can resolve do so

1 minute ago, Ultimatecalibur said:

Wrong. page 155:

Fair enough...

But you also argued that I am skipping steps, which I don't.

I do resolve the step as something which can't happen because it is impossible.

Then I execute the next step. Dealing damage.

Nothing was skipped.

@Ultimatecalibur I also get that this doesn't feel right, because it is honestly quite stupid. But I don't see any reason to argue about it because the rules section obviously needs an update because it does clearly not work as intended.

13 minutes ago, Yandia said:

@Ultimatecalibur I also get that this doesn't feel right, because it is honestly quite stupid. But I don't see any reason to argue about it because the rules section opviously needs an update because it does clearly not work as intended.

I'm trying to point out all the bugs in the situation and if this was a video game this mess would be one that could possibly cause a fatal lockup/crash.

Teveshszat is triggering a buggy activation caused by the phrase "that can be wielded in a one-handed grip" not being included in Iaijutsu's activation entry. This inadvertently triggers another bug in the rules caused by a missing rule involving resolving impossible resolutions and what should be done in that case.

The second bug is actually the more worrying one since other actions and techniques might run into it in the future.