So in all honesty, your conversion kit will need just about everything included in the core set minus the miniatures. If you buy the core set and have the miniatures, you don't have to paint them and use them if you are playing friendly games as we discussed in another thread. But you will have them nonetheless and you can even use them in IA as well, if you want.

31 minutes ago, TylerTT said:

No one is asking you to do anything about it.

Unless you happen to be a decision maker at FFG. Then please announce a conversion kit.

Awesome, So we have established I can't do anything about it, and people are going to keep ******* about how they can't do anything about it. Glad we got that cleared up.

Can we now talk about Legion and stop crying?

The conversion kit would need cardboard order tokens and cards. And a plastic base insert for the vheical bases.

Just imagine the crying that is going to take place when X-wing 2.0 eventually gets announced and none of your existing ships will be compatible with the new version of the game. You can bet the farm that there will be no conversion kits for that either. Its inevitable it will happen its just a matter of when.

12 hours ago, TylerTT said:

Unless the plan backfires and people who own AI refuse to buy those miniatures again?

Same reaction to Destiny being a CCG rather than an LCG, what a big backfire that was.

Until the tournament rules comes out the fact is no one knows if you can or cannot use IA miniatures. I think FFG would do well just to upfront allow them, as the actual models are still FFG and make no appreciable difference to you or I enjoying the game. Let's be fair here, if you own 2 sets of IA and thus have 8 Stormtroopers you may avoid the purchase of a box of 7 new Stormtroopers and if you end up with 30 Stormtroopers you will still be painting 22. (Which for most of us would equate to painting 11 or 15 at a time.)

As at this time we are not clear on the cast quality, these could be soft plastics like IA which are not that good or they could be a harder plastic and have a better cast to them. So perhaps by being less stringent the IA players may just buy into the higher cast quality or not as they prefer.

But the main problem isn't one with the models. The problem you will have to face is that the FFG tournament rules for every other game they have pretty much says if you take the unit or upgrade you must have the card for that unit or upgrade. Now, that rule will not be relaxed at all, at least as far as a tournament play goes.

The problem with the models is the bases on the IA are smaller, but here the issue isn't a problem for your opponent but for you, when you move the full distance of a movement template you are reducing your movement distance by that small amount. I have played Armada and X-Wing games where the ability to shoot has been decided by those few mm. This may be solved in the long run by third party products, but that solution certainly won't be solved by me.

So, if you want to limit your army, please go ahead. I really hope FFG allows you the opportunity.

Beyond that I wish you the best. Enjoy your games and play what brings you that joy. If this game is going to cause you grief or any negative emotion go away from it. There are countless games I refuse to play because they bring me no joy. None of those games have failed because I wasn't playing them, nor have they succeeded because I was.

I highly doubt IA figures will be acceptable in official organized events and tournaments. The size difference between IA figures and official Legion miniatures will be enough to cause arguments regarding cover and line of sight rules in Legion making it seem unfair. True miniature wargames like Legion and 40k rely on true visual line of sight to determine cover that it would cause problems with the use of unofficial miniatures of even a slightly different scale like IA figures. Thats not to say you couldn't use your IA figures for friendly games at home or at your FLGS if your opponent has no objections which they however may.

An argument I see popping up a lot is "Because FFG is a business and wants to make money!" This is true and valid. What I don't get, and I don't mean to be aggressive as I ask this, is why you would go along with that. If you can see that they are changing scales so that you have to buy a whole new $90 box after paying comparable or larger amounts of money for IA minis, shouldn't that leave you as annoyed as those who want the scales the same? We're the consumers, not the business. Yes, I want FFG to make money, because I like their products. But you can't be blind to something the company could have done to build good will with their audience. They knew there would be an opportunity for cross compatibility, and a lot of people here don't see a reason other than a cash grab to not take advantage of that.

I'm not saying you can't be excited for the new game. It looks cool. The system looks fun. But you can't pretend that there wasn't a better way, for us the consumers.

10 hours ago, Manchu said:

Prodos (AvP publishers) is an even weirder choice than Knight as they have really screwed the pooch on their KS for that game, shipping a second edition of AvP before some backers have gotten any of the pledge rewards and there are still outsanding items from the KS. As I understood it, the "Unleashed" minis game is either entirely or partially in that category.

Yep, they were pretty *** to their KS backers, no doubt. But my point has little to do with that. It's specifically that they allow the same models to be used with two different game systems, much like Knight Models (again, not a perfect company).

I mean, no company is above criticism, right, and you can still criticise aspects of stuff you love, and still love your stuff

FFG has its own 'issues' (e.g. sometimes having to buy different factions for certain upgrades, or putting super useful cards into epic ships, or supplying too few dice in starter boxes etc etc). But that's superfluous I think to what we're specifically talking about, and it's good to give credit where it's due as well as criticism!

QS =D

1 hour ago, Amanal said:

Beyond that I wish you the best. Enjoy your games and play what brings you that joy. If this game is going to cause you grief or any negative emotion go away from it. There are countless games I refuse to play because they bring me no joy. None of those games have failed because I wasn't playing them, nor have they succeeded because I was.

Much truth to this, thanks for putting that in

QS =D

1 hour ago, demon3o5z said:

n argument I see popping up a lot is "Because FFG is a business and wants to make money!" This is true and valid. What I don't get, and I don't mean to be aggressive as I ask this, is why you would go along with that. If you can see that they are changing scales so that you have to buy a whole new $90 box after paying comparable or larger amounts of money for IA minis, shouldn't that leave you as annoyed as those who want the scales the same? We're the consumers, not the business. Yes, I want FFG to make money, because I like their products. But you can't be blind to something the company could have done to build good will with their audience. They knew there would be an opportunity for cross compatibility, and a lot of people here don't see a reason other than a cash grab to not take advantage of that.

I'm not saying you can't be excited for the new game. It looks cool. The system looks fun. But you can't pretend that there wasn't a better way, for us the consumers.

As an owner of all things IA, X-wing, Armada, and a few of FFG's LCGs I know going in that these types of games are not "investments" and have what many would consider a limited life-span. They are purchased for personnel enjoyment. All of these games will either eventually be put to bed and the player community will dry up or be replaced with a newer version that will make your existing collection obsolete. Its the nature of the game industry particularly competitive style meta-driven games. I also understand business and what companies need to do and will do to grow and survive. I factor all these elements into my buying decisions before I consciously pull the trigger on any new game purchase. Non-gamers will view any of these purchases as foolish expenditures but as someone who enjoys this hobby and enjoys the "collecting" aspect of this part of the game industry it is a purchase decision I am comfortable making. For these reasons, I don't expect FFG to make my IA collection compatible with Legion nor do I expect them to make my X-wing collection compatible with X-wing 2.0 when it eventually gets released. That is the nature of this business and if someone can not accept that then they are in for a huge disappointment and high levels of frustration as unfair to the consumer it may seem. You can avoid this by refraining from purchasing into game systems you know will have limited lifespans and seek other interests. If Disney decides not to renew FFG's Star Wars license when it expires or there is another company such as Hasbro that outbids them for it FFG and all of us customers will be screwed because all of FFG's Star Wars titles will immediately be terminated hanging us all out to dry. It is a reality that must be contemplated when you decide to "buy-in" to any of these Star Wars game systems. As consumers, only you or I are responsible for the purchasing decisions we make. It is up to us to research and decide for ourselves if it is an expenditure you are willing to make no matter how risky or unfair potential outcomes may arise. Only you as a consumer are accountable for your own research and understanding of the playing field which you are buying into. There is very little "entitlement" in this world.

2 hours ago, DesignXception said:

As an owner of all things IA, X-wing, Armada, and a few of FFG's LCGs I know going in that these types of games are not "investments" and have what many would consider a limited life-span. They are purchased for personnel enjoyment. All of these games will either eventually be put to bed and the player community will dry up or be replaced with a newer version that will make your existing collection obsolete. Its the nature of the game industry particularly competitive style meta-driven games. I also understand business and what companies need to do and will do to grow and survive. I factor all these elements into my buying decisions before I consciously pull the trigger on any new game purchase. Non-gamers will view any of these purchases as foolish expenditures but as someone who enjoys this hobby and enjoys the "collecting" aspect of this part of the game industry it is a purchase decision I am comfortable making. For these reasons, I don't expect FFG to make my IA collection compatible with Legion nor do I expect them to make my X-wing collection compatible with X-wing 2.0 when it eventually gets released. That is the nature of this business and if someone can not accept that then they are in for a huge disappointment and high levels of frustration as unfair to the consumer it may seem. You can avoid this by refraining from purchasing into game systems you know will have limited lifespans and seek other interests. If Disney decides not to renew FFG's Star Wars license when it expires or there is another company such as Hasbro that outbids them for it FFG and all of us customers will be screwed because all of FFG's Star Wars titles will immediately be terminated hanging us all out to dry. It is a reality that must be contemplated when you decide to "buy-in" to any of these Star Wars game systems. As consumers, only you or I are responsible for the purchasing decisions we make. It is up to us to research and decide for ourselves if it is an expenditure you are willing to make no matter how risky or unfair potential outcomes may arise. Only you as a consumer are accountable for your own research and understanding of the playing field which you are buying into. There is very little "entitlement" in this world.

Well put and I totally agree with you. I purchased entire collections of miniatures in the past like a Necron Army and Tyranid Army for 40k, Tomb Kings for WF, I have owned 10's of thousands of Magic The Gathering cards, I own, and I'm not even joking here at least 1,000 role playing books. The vast majority of this stuff will never see the light of day again and it represents thousands of dollars spent and I can say without question or reservation that I don't regret a penny that I spent on any of it. In fact, I largely feel like I have ripped these companies off because I gave them a bit of meaningless bag of cash and they gave me thousands of hours in entertainment spanning 30 years of gaming which became the foundations for friendships I have to this day.

The only thing I can say to FFG and companies like them is that I'm grateful that not only do they keep producing games, but its clear that the games are getting better and better. The designers are getting smarter, the business models are becoming more convenient and most importantly and I think definitively the support for these games is lasting longer. Companies like FFG in particular understand what a fan is and how closely we hold dear some of the products they make and they are constantly giving nods to the past by producing new generations of old games. Fury of Dracula, Twilight Imperium, **** they are even bringing back classic West End Game products like the Star Wars RPG. That is a company who understands their audience, understands nostalgia and what we really want.

This nonsense about Legion not being compatible with Imperial Assault, I'm not sorry to say is petty bull from ungrateful brats.

Totally agree, I am right there with you.

Hmm, I get it though I do not play IA.

First, If FFG releases a new Miniature game it is of course FFGs choice which scale it is and if or if not it shares compatibility with other games.
However people have the same right to be disappointed or angry with FFGs decisions and talk about that.

When I thirst heard rumors that FFG is going to announce an epic ground battle sw game I was convinced it would be in a smaller scale then IA. I hoped for 15/18mm cause I personally like that scale and it would have a scale that allows recognisable heroes while fielding AT-ATs would be reasonable. When I learned that Legion would be an even bigger scale the IA I was puzzeled by this decision. I do not care to much cause I do not play IA.

What I play is X-Wing. Then Armada came out I didn't think a second it should be compatible with X-Wing. You would never have Stardestroyers in X-Wing and you will never see how one fighter pilot outmaneuvers another in Armada. However If FFG would announce a new SW Fightersquad game that deals with battles between mid-size fightersquads of 5 to 20 crafts on each side. That is incompatible with X-Wing and coms in a slightly bigger scale I would be pissed. Imagine FFG would have made the X-Wing Epic formate a separate game that would be completely incompatible with X-Wing. Sure FFG could have made that decision but it would have been a terrible one.

To get it straight FFG decided to make a new game about SW ground battles in a similar scale to the SW ground battle game they already have.

FFG coul have gone with one of these decisions

1. Make it compatible to IA (Conversion kits for IA Minis etc. IA Players can play Legion with very little investment)

1.5 Not compatible But the Minis are and some love for IA Players (e.g. You need the Legion Expansions but they include some extra cards so an IA player could get two Stormtrooper Squads out of one Stormtrooper expansion)

2. Not compatible to IA but the Minis are (You need the Cards from the Legion Expansion but you could use your IA Minis)

3. Not compatible and the Minis are designed in a way that disencourages the use of IA Minis.

Now 1 and 1.5 are obviously nice for IA players. It would limit the amount of Expensions these players would potentially buy. On the other hand it would have made the core rules a near auto-purchase for active IA Players and ensure thet Legion starts with a very healthy community.

2 would at least have some benefits for IA players. You would still have to buy all the expansions but you could start playing with your already painted IA Minis. You would have spare minis you could use to replace broken ones. Make some crazy conversions or customise your troops (you can still field only 2 squads of Rebel troopers at once but you have enough minis to customise them for Hoth Tatooine and Endor).

3. Seems a bit odd. You deliberately have no compatibility with IA while the scale dosn't have any obvious advantages (you can't field anything bigger then in IA). The scale is so near IA that you have to think "They could have made it in the same scale but they decided to do not" that feels like an ******* move against their own customers.

It is also much to easy to say that FFG needs to do it this way cause they need to make money. There are a lot of reasons why compatibility might be good for financial reasons. IA Players would have a great incentive for at least limited investment in Legion and Legion would have a much broader Community base which is very importand for these games cause very few people invest in games why can't play cause there are to few players. Also there might be people like me who do not invest in Legion and IA cause while they are interested the investment barrier (not only money but also time and space) is a little bit too high. Getting two for one might make a difference.

Now I do not want to judge FFG for its decision. Thy might have honest reasons. Prehaps the IA scale is just a bit to small for the market. Prehaps you need bigger more detailed minis to stand a chance.
However as FFG has all rights to make this decision, people have all rights to disagree with it. IA players might be interested in what Legion has to offer. A lot of them might have get started with IA cause they wanted something like Legion. A Lot of them might feel that thy are not able to invest in both games (not only money but also time and space) while they would have been able to invest in both if they there compatible to some degree so investment in one would synergize with the other. And in the end IA players might feel unconfortable that their game might lose support.

So in the end while FFG has any right to decide how they did people have all right to critizese this decision, to be disappointed about it and to show this disappointment.

There is no reason to ***** about that.

4 hours ago, BigKahuna said:

This nonsense about Legion not being compatible with Imperial Assault, I'm not sorry to say is petty bull from ungrateful brats.

As a long time wargamer (since the 80's) and an IA player, I think this is unfair.

Cross compatibility between games like this is industry standard for wargames (Warhammer was invented to use all your D&D models). It's not a case of just wanting to play the game without buying anything, it's about encouraging people to purchase more of your product.

As an Imperial Assault player, I would easily buy a box of Legion stormtroopers to mix in with IA models if they fit. Multiple poses, sergeants and different heavy weapons is all great for a small scale skirmish. The same is true for a lot of units, I have no interest in Legion as a game, but the models would be useful so I would buy them. It works the other way too. An IA player may not normally be interested in a wargame, but would purchase Legion because they could use their old models.

Then there is the player who wants both games. If they were compatible, maybe they would be encouraged to buy a box of Legion Trandoshans because they already have 4 from the Imperial Assault game, where they may not purchase that unit otherwise. By making them not compatible I went from thinking the base game was a must buy for the figures (the game itself doesn't look particularly interesting to me from a Wargaming standpoint) to having no interest.

I'm not bitter about that fact, it's just FFG made it clear they don't want to treat Imperial Assault as a gateway game, which is odd because that is what other wargaming companies do.

9 hours ago, DesignXception said:

Just imagine the crying that is going to take place when X-wing 2.0 eventually gets announced and none of your existing ships will be compatible with the new version of the game. You can bet the farm that there will be no conversion kits for that either. Its inevitable it will happen its just a matter of when.

I'm not so sure about that. If FFG brings X-Wing 2.0 they will have to make a decision if it is compatible to X-Wing. They COULD sell simple conversion kits with new cards for a reasonable price so X-Wing Veterans could convert to 2.0 with a low barrier.
Of course FFG could also decide to make it completely incompatible.

So what would happen? If it was compatible FFG would sell a lot of conversion kits, cause basically every active x-wing Player would upgrade to 2.0. Beside these conversion kits players with established collections would keep buying new stuff at the same rate they do now. Beside that X-Wing 2.0 would start with a healthy and content community.

On the other hand it they make it incompatible a lot of people would be pissed off. Some people would convert (and try to sell their old X-Wing Stuff on eBay). Others would stay with X-Wing 1 (and buy the obsolete X-Wing 1 expansions for cheap money on eBay). A few people will deliberately stop buying any FFG products in protest. In the end the community would be divided in a way that would hurt both games.

I seriously doubt that bringing X-Wing 2.0 without a painless way of conversion would pay off for FFG in the long term.

FFG is not a wargaming company. They dont consider Legion or Runewars a product like GW does their games, they will just drop it like a hot potato if it doesnt boom in sales in the first year. Look at RuneWars and their treatment: It underperforms, and already there is no announcements at GenCon and a direct competitor released. Several announcements for the 4th faction are still missing. You can also look at some previous product lines, like some of the WH40k RPGs before the whole fallout with GW - the lines that dont sell get slowed down and cancelled ASAP.

This is why FFG miniature games will always have a shelf life based on selling well. If something is not taking off quickly, just skip it.

Quote

To get it straight FFG decided to make a new game about SW ground battles in a similar scale to the SW ground battle game they already have.

Not exactly. FFG decided to make their first Star Wars Tactical Ground Combat miniatures game. Imperial Assault is a cooperative board game with lots of miniatures, that has a "skirmish" option. It was embraced by the community as "THE" way to play it and its likely what triggered them to make Legion in the first place.

If they released Legion in scale with Imperial Assault, they may as well have skipped making miniatures for it and simply released a "skirmish" expansion for Imperial Assault with the rules for Legion.

They didn't do that because they recognized that if you are going to make a tactical miniatures game to compete with the likes of Warhammer 40k, which notably Imperial Assault does not under any stretch of the imagination, you need to step it up several notches and give it proper miniature game treatment. That's exactly what they did and that's exactly what Legion is.

FFG might not have been a wargaming company before, but they most certainly are now. They currently control 2 of the most popular miniature games on the market of the 3 they have released and are about to release their 4th. Gamesworkshop currently has 3 miniature lines, so if FFG is not a wargaming company, neither is GW!

43 minutes ago, Kaiju said:

FFG is not a wargaming company. They dont consider Legion or Runewars a product like GW does their games, they will just drop it like a hot potato if it doesnt boom in sales in the first year.

Traditional wargames are a lifestyle hobby - you have to assemble, paint and create terrain for these, which requires effort and time. This is one of their biggest selling points - they aren't just selling you lumps of plastic but a whole hobby to explore. This means you get built-in investment from your customers as they personalise their miniatures/armies/terrain etc (Also why it's a good idea to provide multiple factions and subfactions for people to become attached to).

X-Wing is a boardgame with wargame trappings, doing away with most of the hobby aspect (which is good in some ways and loses out in others).

Because of this investment by the player base, incompatibility between similar games/dropping games like hot potatoes or making version 2 totally incompatible with previous versions is likely to give you negative feedback and potentially lose existing customers (see the difference in responses between age of sigmar and 40k 8th edition)

26 minutes ago, BigKahuna said:

If they released Legion in scale with Imperial Assault, they may as well have skipped making miniatures for it and simply released a "skirmish" expansion for Imperial Assault with the rules for Legion.

That's not how other companies have treated this situation. Warhammer quest didn't affect Age of Sigmar and Mantic Games' Dungeon Saga didn't affect Kings of War.

16 hours ago, Manchu said:

Good news ! Legion figures are completely compatible with Imperial Assault. It's the other way round where it gets a little tricky. There is no reason why you couldn't use Legion figs as alternate sculpts in your IA games. Consider yourself incentivized ~

I do wish that was the case, they just look awkwardly big to me. Except maybe Vader- I think I could live with a more imposing looking Vader, that might actually be pretty cool.

11 hours ago, demon3o5z said:

They knew there would be an opportunity for cross compatibility, and a lot of people here don't see a reason other than a cash grab to not take advantage of that.

First off, just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. There may be a number of reasons that FFG can't or won't discuss that went into the change. We know nothing about their license agreements so we can't even really take an educated guess at what's involved in this decision.

Second, just because they're not compatible at official events does not actually mean anything for most people since most people don't play at events in which this is likely to really be enforced.

While they may end up allowing IA mini's to be used, they're not going to release some kind of conversion kit for them. It would be stupid to release something that lets people buy less of your product.

Exactly! And as people cant see the reason that might or might not be there, they are pissed.

3 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

Exactly! And as people cant see the reason that might or might not be there, they are pissed.

That's on them then. I don't have to know the reason why something is like it is. I can make a decision about if I like it or not without knowing the why.

The fact is that the scale isn't the same, why that is really isn't all that important because it won't change anything. So decide if this is a deal breaker or not. If it is then stick to IA, if it's not then pick up Legion.

Can I be angry if a conversion kit is added? It means I have to spend more money on minis than the people who own IA. That only seems fair.

Well it's not that easy. IA players are pissed cause FFG made a decision to not only make IA incompatible with Legion (they could have gone another way) but to deliberately disencourage crossover miniature use by taking a slightly different scale.
FFG can make such a decision in their rights and IA players can be pissed about it in their rights.
When FFG takes a decision which pisses off a part of their customers it is on them. However they are free to do that.

2 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

Well it's not that easy.

Yes it actually is that easy. Buy the game or don't buy the game, it's that easy.

2 minutes ago, Hannes Solo said:

IA players are pissed cause FFG made a decision to not only make IA incompatible with Legion (they could have gone another way) but to deliberately disencourage crossover miniature use by taking a slightly different scale.

IA players never had any reason to expect Legion was going to be compatible with IA, so they really don't have a reason to be pissed.

Plus and I'll say it again... The models are so close to being the same size that it's unlikely anyone is actually going to notice let alone care that you have IA stormtroopers in Legion. Especially if you rebase the IA models so they base is taller.

The only time/place this will likely actually be an issue is for something like Regionals and National championships, and even in those cases it may not be an issue.