Just now, AlexW said:

That's fair. This didn't come across -- at least to me -- in the opening discussion of the show and it's a fair point that it's a game that some other lists play and so playing it better is important.

I was... less focused than normal...

14 minutes ago, impspy said:

I just want PS 10/11 to go away tbh.

Why?

Something has to move last.

Seems appropriate that Poe, Vader, Wes, and Wedge get to do it.

The term PS War has always felt misleading to me

I dont think PS Wars exist.

PS Wars are fake news.

I dont think there has ever been a version of X-Wing where moving last was bad.

You take the best ship you can find and you put the best upgrades that you know how to use on it.

Maximize your Pilot Skill, your action efficiency, your offense, your defense, and your bid.

Hold all ships to a PS9 max and ill just out bid you and put all the same stuff on the table moving last.

Oh wait no there would be one exception Kylo without anyone being able to move after him.

Not a path we want to go down...

VI is fine.

I love it and its the last thing id change about X-Wing.

21 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Why?

Something has to move last.

Seems appropriate that Poe, Vader, Wes, and Wedge get to do it.

The term PS War has always felt misleading to me

I dont think PS Wars exist.

PS Wars are fake news.

I dont think there has ever been a version of X-Wing where moving last was bad.

You take the best ship you can find and you put the best upgrades that you know how to use on it.

Maximize your Pilot Skill, your action efficiency, your offense, your defense, and your bid.

Hold all ships to a PS9 max and ill just out bid you and put all the same stuff on the table moving last.

Oh wait no there would be one exception Kylo without anyone being able to move after him.

Not a path we want to go down...

VI is fine.

I love it and its the last thing id change about X-Wing.

Let's fire up the way back machine.

Tie swarms used to bid against each other for the block, you definitly didn't take obsidan ties because you didn't want to get blocked by rebel everything.

That's the extreme opposite end of where we're at now. We definitly used to cut pilot skill for more ships.

That said capping ps at 9 is dumb and like you said, we'd see some disgusting bids.

8 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Let's fire up the way back machine.

Tie swarms used to bid against each other for the block, you definitly didn't take obsidan ties because you didn't want to get blocked by rebel everything.

That's the extreme opposite end of where we're at now. We definitly used to cut pilot skill for more ships.

That said capping ps at 9 is dumb and like you said, we'd see some disgusting bids.

So what your saying is there was a time when Advanced Sensors didnt exist and blocking was possible?

Also us younglings are to young to remember the time before the dark times.

We need more history lessons.

Its hard to know these things with Kylo running around killing the past all the time.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

So what your saying is there was a time when Advanced Sensors didnt exist and blocking was possible?

The platforms that could take it were at least limited, but then again b wings won worlds with it.

3 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

The platforms that could take it were at least limited, but then again b wings won worlds with it.

B-Wings won worlds?? Whats next you gonna tell me that Han Solo was good to?

I just love how different Travis and my styles are.

I was literally yelling

CHASE ME

as my opponents try to just a 53 point soontir or 65 point kylo (and failed, because they're soontir and kylo). I can feel Travis's disappointment.

And re whoever said it - I like that jousters move last. It's not hard to dodge an arc when you know where it is. Jousters being higher PS than arc dodgers (in some cases) is super cool, especially when the jousters can't reposition.

21 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I just love how different Travis and my styles are.

I was literally yelling

CHASE ME

as my opponents try to just a 53 point soontir or 65 point kylo (and failed, because they're soontir and kylo). I can feel Travis's disappointment.

And re whoever said it - I like that jousters move last. It's not to dodge an arc when you know where it's going to be. Jousters being higher PS than arc dodgers (in some cases) is super cool, especially when the jousters can't reposition.

I think you're missing some words there. At least a word.

59 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

B-Wings won worlds?? Whats next you gonna tell me that Han Solo was good to?

Fat han and whisper were the original cancer man.

5 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

I think you're missing some words there. At least a word.

Nailed it, think it's fixed now

4 hours ago, sirjorj said:

Can we just start calling it this?

I like Tragedy Simulator because it's an apt description of your opponent's state of mind after seeing what it does.

3 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

If you mean kylo being a points fortress, it's really a fringe benefit.

I bring kylo to actually kill things - but since a lot of lists don't allow you to kill things, then you kick in the secondary win condition of out-pointsing them (when they normally try and out point you and sit).

I'd still rather be killing things.

This is one of the things I like about IA. You shoot something and it takes damage. You keep shooting it and it will eventually die. It is actually incredibly rare these days for an attack to do zero damage to a figure. Every figure is on a clock. The opposite is true for X-wing where often your attack misses or the damage doesn't really matter. That combined with the far fewer number of units on the table makes a points fortressing playstyle viable. Just put your points into a couple of ships that won't die and you're good to go!

Polish meta will save you.

Also I think we will have a problem with Nymranda if they win 5 system opens, like paratannii last year.

I need a teacher.

When was Sabine Crew released and why? Was there a time when bombs were actually bad? Or did they just buff rebel bombs before people figured them out? Or was it specifically intended to deal with Soontir?

Also whats the deal with guidance chips? Havent we always had target locks and focus tokens? Was it intended as a buff for ordinace that requires you to spend stuff and just worded wrong? Or was it specifically an intended buff to deadeye stuff? Or just all ordinance?

Basically....

Was there ever a time when ordinance and bombs were actually genuinely bad? Or are X-Wing Players just really bad at X-Wing and cant figure out good things without FFG putting a "use this its good have extra damage" label on specific types of cards?

Or was all of this a reaction to Palp?

14 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I need a teacher.

When was Sabine Crew released and why? Was there a time when bombs were actually bad? Or did they just buff rebel bombs before people figured them out? Or was it specifically intended to deal with Soontir?

Also whats the deal with guidance chips? Havent we always had target locks and focus tokens? Was it intended as a buff for ordinace that requires you to spend stuff and just worded wrong? Or was it specifically an intended buff to deadeye stuff? Or just all ordinance?

Basically....

Was there ever a time when ordinance and bombs were actually genuinely bad? Or are X-Wing Players just really bad at X-Wing and cant figure out good things without FFG putting a "use this its good have extra damage" label on specific types of cards?

Or was all of this a reaction to Palp?

Yes, bombs and munitions were horrible at the start. It was clear mark of a new player to take Protons Torps because it came in the red core. They needed improving, but they just keep adding buffs and haven't stopped sadly.

21 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I need a teacher.

When was Sabine Crew released and why? Was there a time when bombs were actually bad? Or did they just buff rebel bombs before people figured them out? Or was it specifically intended to deal with Soontir?

Also whats the deal with guidance chips? Havent we always had target locks and focus tokens? Was it intended as a buff for ordinace that requires you to spend stuff and just worded wrong? Or was it specifically an intended buff to deadeye stuff? Or just all ordinance?

Basically....

Was there ever a time when ordinance and bombs were actually genuinely bad? Or are X-Wing Players just really bad at X-Wing and cant figure out good things without FFG putting a "use this its good have extra damage" label on specific types of cards?

Or was all of this a reaction to Palp?

I’m not qualified to teach, but I think FFG has a style of releasing incremental buffs when possible, but their development cycle is slow enough that they sometimes incrementally buff something that has already been made good.

Ordnance was was absolutely not worth taking in waves 1-3. They tried to fix that with new munitions a while, then extra munitions, then guidance chips. Chips were clearly in development before extra munitions were in the wild. But they also never slowed down with the new munitions, and kept inching the power up.

It it feels like they were thinking “oh, we have three categories of upgrades that are seeing niche or zero play, lets expand the design space” and not targeting specific interactions like deadeye for the munitions that don’t spend target locks.

Bombs and Torpedoes and missiles were definitely bad, but at the time upgrades were bad as a general rule.

Sabine was released as part of the Ghost expac ... and I can imagine that the devs thought train went something like ...

Lets add Sabine crew ... thematically, she always brings bombs ... so lets have her add a bomb slot ... But bombs are bad - no-one uses them ... she's a cool thematic character from a popular show, can we power her up a bit ... How about she increases bomb damage ... an extra 1 damage to a bomb once a turn isn't too bad eh? ...

Later, along comes Bomblet, Nym, Tajectory Simulator ...

I guess when all the decisions make sense individually, it is often difficult to see the bigger picture. Maybe FFG have a balancing change, release or FAQ in the works, and are willing to manage this bad period in preparation for the release of that change ... after all, they have a 2 year forward view for the game, which none of us are party to.

7 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Sabine was released as part of the Ghost expac ... and I can imagine that the devs thought train went something like ...

Lets add Sabine crew ... thematically, she always brings bombs ... so lets have her add a bomb slot ... But bombs are bad - no-one uses them ... she's a cool thematic character from a popular show, can we power her up a bit ... How about she increases bomb damage ... an extra 1 damage to a bomb once a turn isn't too bad eh? ...

Later, along comes Bomblet, Nym, Tajectory Simulator ...

I guess when all the decisions make sense individually, it is often difficult to see the bigger picture. Maybe FFG have a balancing change, release or FAQ in the works, and are willing to manage this bad period in preparation for the release of that change ... after all, they have a 2 year forward view for the game, which none of us are party to.

I think that's almost assuredly what happened.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I need a teacher.

When was Sabine Crew released and why? Was there a time when bombs were actually bad? Or did they just buff rebel bombs before people figured them out? Or was it specifically intended to deal with Soontir?

Also whats the deal with guidance chips? Havent we always had target locks and focus tokens? Was it intended as a buff for ordinace that requires you to spend stuff and just worded wrong? Or was it specifically an intended buff to deadeye stuff? Or just all ordinance?

Basically....

Was there ever a time when ordinance and bombs were actually genuinely bad? Or are X-Wing Players just really bad at X-Wing and cant figure out good things without FFG putting a "use this its good have extra damage" label on specific types of cards?

Or was all of this a reaction to Palp?

Bombs got thier first buff in 2014. Originally, if you placed an action bomb directly on a ship, the bomb did not go off. The noble sablegriffon took 3 tie bombers and a doom shuttle to the fat han whisper worlds and went 4-2.

Ordinance was pretty bad before guidance chips, when long range scanners was released, homing missle was the only relevant missle that let you keep your lock, and only k wings, tie bombers and punishers could equip it. Granted we got guidance chips pretty quickly after so we didnt have the opportunity to explore that world much. Even guidance chips are pretty okay now that the jmk is gone, mathematically theyre inferior to lrs plus lock

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Also whats the deal with guidance chips? Havent we always had target locks and focus tokens? Was it intended as a buff for ordinace that requires you to spend stuff and just worded wrong? Or was it specifically an intended buff to deadeye stuff? Or just all ordinance?

Ordnance was limited to once per game, mostly. That means an alpha strike was very hard to set up. Because getting a TL on an opponent AND a focus was basically impossible before first round shots, unless you‘re Vader/using PTL. Keep in mind that much damage ordnance spent the TL. Homing was very expensive at 5 points. Other exceptions before Harpoon/Cruise were Cluster (attack twice, and just 3 dice, so a TL is not as usefull) and Prockets (only on 3 agility ships because range 1 shots are often 3-4 dice already).

K-Wing brought Extra Munitions, so now few ships were not limited to that single ordnance.

Wave 8 brought Guidance Chips. This allowed an additional hit.

Imperial Veterans in Summer 2016 (?) brought long range scanners, which hardly any ship could use. One guy famously put the slave 1 title on his firespray to bring it. But at least it gave TL+Focus for the initial engagement.

So Missiles in particular were not really dealing damage. They did sometimes with Homing on Miranda (point fortress, spending shield), or Prockets on imperial Aces. But there was not really another carrier to use them on.

46 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I think that's almost assuredly what happened.

That makes sense. I guess at the time they felt bombs that require you to roll red dice were not consistent enough damage dealers for the points and effort to set up? Kinda makes sense.

Either way its encouraging that they dropped Harpoons, Lowhrick, Rebel Fenn, and the Biggs Nerf all at close to the same time. Suggests they definitely do have a "forward looking view" you guys referred to. I am not a huge fan of re-enforce but I begrudgingly see why they added Lowhrick when they did.

Its also good to see an entire wave, Kimogilia, Silencer, B17, & Gunboat where there isnt a ship that has way way way more upgrade slots than is logically manageable in the long run ( the silencer might prove to be the exception).

The only thing FFG seems to really consistently struggle with is keeping ships with an unusually large number of upgrade or mechanic options under control. Maybe thats changing behind the scenes to.

Its understandable that the Scrugg and Miranda are so tricky to design around. Im not sure there is a way to deal with the baked in upgrade flexibility that Miranda, Nym, and the original Jumpmasters had. Point cost and low agility apparently isnt a consistent way to do it when the pilots themselves have so many options ( the only ship with lots of upgrades that seems to be held back by pts and agility is the firespray and maybe y-wings for some reason...).

Rambling again but it seems like FFG struggles with balancing ships with access to turrets and lots and lots of upgrades via specific card errata.

I might be reading into everyone too much (or restating the obvious) but, it seems to me, the problem can be oversimplified to curbing and controlling the number of upgrades available to ships. If we look at the ships we are all primarily concerned with, or have been (JM5K), have an abundance of slots.

Would we have the same problem with Nym if he could not bring a turret? An EPT? I was shocked that he could given that Miranda did not (I always assumed it was because of VI/Deadeye).

*Proposed Change* I just thought of this, but what if Tragedy Simulator (I like this) was limited to non-unique bombs thereby preventing Bomblet Generator from operating with it?

This most recent episode was interesting. I feel stronger for listening to the full session. Travis "**** you, **** you, **** you - You're the problem with the meta NOT me" Johnson's salt was impressive. Even if you stop playing, please remain on the cast.

3 minutes ago, AT Leader said:

I might be reading into everyone too much (or restating the obvious) but, it seems to me, the problem can be oversimplified to curbing and controlling the number of upgrades available to ships. If we look at the ships we are all primarily concerned with, or have been (JM5K), have an abundance of slots.

Would we have the same problem with Nym if he could not bring a turret? An EPT? I was shocked that he could given that Miranda did not (I always assumed it was because of VI/Deadeye).

*Proposed Change* I just thought of this, but what if Tragedy Simulator (I like this) was limited to non-unique bombs thereby preventing Bomblet Generator from operating with it?

trajectory simulator is better WITHOUT bomblet - many nym miranda lists are actually super un-optimized (which should scare everyone).

And yes - the problem is keeping ships with a large number of upgrade slots (and in particular, certain permutations of slots), in balance as new things are introduced.

Just now, AT Leader said:

*Proposed Change* I just thought of this, but what if Tragedy Simulator (I like this) was limited to non-unique bombs thereby preventing Bomblet Generator from operating with it?

IMO, it's even worse with generic bombs. A proton to the face to start an engagement can mean various horrible things. In my trial run, I got damaged engine on a Ghost that had just k-turned (sadly, I didn't get the same on Dash, that would have been awesome). A blinded pilot could be especially depressing, since it basically neuters part of the counterplay. I also got a console fire on Biggs, who had no chance to try and clear it before it first triggered.

As I've said many times in the last few days, I really don't like the list, but for regional prep, people need to learn to fly against it and someone had to fly it. You do not want to face it for the first time during a tournament that matters.