7 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Yea it makes QD and 3 Nus, QD and 2 Nus pretty quick. Same rules apply to Kylo/Rhos.

That can be okay, because QD and 2 leftover Nus can make it just Miranda before Nym fires a second time.

i agree

12 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

As far as dealing with Nym/Miranda it feels basically like the same situation as a couple months back. Its got a stronger alpha now for sure but Nym isnt any more tanky than he was then.

I think a lot of people don't realize just how much stronger the alpha is, though. The list goes from doing 9 as a "max damage" (I guess 10 if Nym runs Cruise and gets the perfect setup) to actually being able to reliably push out more than nine (before defense rolls), thanks to a trajectory simulator bomb (usually about 2 damage), 7 from a couple of missiles (conservatively--could be 9) and another from the harpoon trigger. Trajectory Simulator and Harpoon can add both hard and soft control effects depending on the bomb, but at minimum it forces you to fly very differently to avoid getting multiple ships caught in the bomb trigger.

Ultra high p.s. arc dodgers aren't the answer?

Noticed at least on Podbean that the newest episode was posted twice and both seem to be at a lower volume level (at least as of listening to it now). @Brunas not sure if intended.

So if

1.) Kylo carries, his weight, but Gunboats don't.

and

2.) Kylo is moving first anyway.

then how is the blindingly obvious solution not double Silencers?

I'm in the first half hour, maybe you've addressed this.

I kind of assumed that he hasn't updated his volume settings since the last time @catachanninja was on.

9 hours ago, AlexW said:

The list goes from doing 9 as a "max damage" (I guess 10 if Nym runs Cruise and gets the perfect setup) to actually being able to reliably push out more than nine (before defense rolls), thanks to a trajectory simulator bomb (usually about 2 damage), 7 from a couple of missiles (conservatively--could be 9) and another from the harpoon trigger.

For people that are as slow as me, I think he means the following:

1 damage from the bomb + 1 from Sabine (total: 2). Possibly more with splash.

Edit: Nym shoots first. 3-4 damage from Nym‘s Harpoon (total: 5-6).

4-5 damage from Miranda‘s Harpoon by paying a shield and double mods (total: 9-11). Edit: maybe trigger Nym‘s harpoon, chances are not bad for it at 57%

To compare, three ships with harpoons can hope for the same amount of damage, 9+harpoon extra is quite normal in my experience, allowing you to blast away Nym, Miranda, and if very lucky also normal Asajj, Dengar or Dash.

So rolling 12 damage by 2 ships is really impressive and scary

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

For people that are as slow as me, I think he means the following:

1 damage from the bomb + 1 from Sabine (total: 2). Possibly more with splash.

4-5 damage from Miranda‘s Harpoon by paying a shield and double mods (total: 6-7)

3-4 damage from Nym‘s Harpoon, +1 from triggering the first Harpoon through chips (total: 10-12).

To compare, three ships with harpoons can hope for the same amount of damage, 9+harpoon extra is quite normal in my experience, allowing you to blast away Nym, Miranda, and if very lucky also normal Asajj, Dengar or Dash.

So rolling 12 damage by 2 ships is really impressive and scary

Unless you're running Nym not with VI, Nym will be shooting first. So the GChips Harpoon won't be after Miranda's Harpoon. Although 5 dice Harpoon (even 4), a crit can happen. Or even if it doesn't, in following turns if your opponent has initiative, just TLT them and a crit can/will also happen and proc both Harpoon conditions.

1 minute ago, RStan said:

Unless you're running Nym not with VI, Nym will be shooting first. So the GChips Harpoon won't be after Miranda's Harpoon. Although 5 dice Harpoon (even 4), a crit can happen. Or even if it doesn't, in following turns if your opponent has initiative, just TLT them and a crit can/will also happen and proc both Harpoon conditions.

Ah of course, good catch!

20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

For people that are as slow as me, I think he means the following:

1 damage from the bomb + 1 from Sabine (total: 2). Possibly more with splash.

Edit: Nym shoots first. 3-4 damage from Nym‘s Harpoon (total: 5-6).

4-5 damage from Miranda‘s Harpoon by paying a shield and double mods (total: 9-11). Edit: maybe trigger Nym‘s harpoon, chances are not bad for it at 57%

To compare, three ships with harpoons can hope for the same amount of damage, 9+harpoon extra is quite normal in my experience, allowing you to blast away Nym, Miranda, and if very lucky also normal Asajj, Dengar or Dash.

So rolling 12 damage by 2 ships is really impressive and scary

Much better break down than I gave. Thanks.

I agree.

And to add actual content (for shame!) I'll reshare my Nymranda story.

I saw the oppressiveness on the Toronto Regional stream and thought to myself that someone should run that at our regional prep tournament, to, you know, help people. I figured a trial run was warranted though, so I told my 8 y.o. son to grab his 3 crackshot Glaives and gave him a few pointers as to the expected horribleness, warning him not to fly in formation if at all possible. First engagement, Nym nearly killed a Glaive on his own. Proton bomb yielded a direct hit + Sabine, the harpoon finished the job, insofar that Miranda elected to TLT instead of "wasting" a harpoon on a 1hull tokenless Glaive behind a rock. The rest went similarly brutally, he did not enjoy the experience.

First match of the regional prep, I'm facing an old school player that is not up to the new shiny with Carnor, a loaded shuttle (without Palp!) and a bomber. 15 minutes later, we were watching the other matches. I injured myself more than he did (1 shield to boost the harpoon, and a proton in the middle of everyone to nuke Carnor, worth it!). He did not enjoy the experience.

Second match was against the only player planning to go to a regional anytime soon with Miranda Dash, a list he's practiced with quite a bit. My lack of practice with either Miranda or Nym showed itself and I lost having a near dead Dash and a Miranda into hull left. He enjoyed the match, but that's because he's super competitive and wants to figure out how to beat anything.

Third match was an old school Kanan/Biggs list. I put Miranda in a ridiculously bad position (see above for my total lack of practice with her) and still won in 20-25 minutes, having lost shields. He knew going in it wouldn't be fun but we managed to have fun by joking about the ridiculousness of it.

I did not enjoy flying that list. Though I appreciate super short matches, these were so lopsided as to be ridiculous.

My son won against my first round opponent with his 2 Deltas and Blackout so while I was giving out prizes and cleaning up, he grabbed the list and flew against the same opponent again. Anything to get another game in. In a single turn 15 minutes in the match, just with a bomblet and a Nym-ed ion, he killed Carnor, finished the bomber and took the last shield off of the shuttle. He was ecstatic. His opponent conceded, having had no fun while my son insisted they should play it out. I convinced him that wouldn't be fun for anyone and I asked if he remembered what it felt like to be on the other side and he just looked sad. He's been thinking of lists that match that player's preference and may have a shot against Nymranda since, so he has a soul after all.

In summary, yeah, it's super efficient and will likely crush most players' spirits. And if those players don't see the horribleness coming, they will have a brutal awakening. I'm sure it can be beat, but I'm not sure it's fun to do so. And, as has been said on the podcast, almost no one actually knows how to fly it well yet and it's already oppressive, the next few months will be interesting.

Based in large part on this experience, I'm having my son skip Regionals after all, he loves actual dogfights so facing that list over and over would crush him. We'll see about Nationals in March, if the meta goes back to something more his style. Maybe next year!

Maybe Travis was too drunk-ragey to consider this, but maybe people weren't taking a bunch of PS 11s that dump Target Locks to counter Kylo and Gunboats, maybe a lot of the field was made of non-idiots and they took those things to counter Nym-Miranda. Maybe all the hard counters he saw to Kylo were a by-product of counters to Nym.

I don't care how much derision this precipitates, but BB8 Poe is a solid matchup to Nym-Miranda. He can dump their target locks so they're jousting with TLTs, and he pretty easily avoids flung bombs.

Kylo is in the crappy position of being weaker to a lot of the stuff that is strong against the number one meta powerhouse. That makes it kind of a bad choice. I know I've played around with a lot of PS11 Imperial lists getting ready for regionals, and PS9 Kylo isn't the number one reason for bidding to PS11.

@Biophysical, I took PS11 because I knew I'd see gunboats, kylos, and poes. I don't know if anyone has a come up with a good meta list that can beat nym miranda so I went with the assumption that I'd face very few nym mirandas and even fewer that knew what they were doing and could just use PS11 to pull it out.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

Maybe Travis was too drunk-ragey to consider this, but maybe people weren't taking a bunch of PS 11s that dump Target Locks to counter Kylo and Gunboats, maybe a lot of the field was made of non-idiots and they took those things to counter Nym-Miranda. Maybe all the hard counters he saw to Kylo were a by-product of counters to Nym.

I know I've played around with a lot of PS11 Imperial lists getting ready for regionals, and PS9 Kylo isn't the number one reason for bidding to PS11.

I'm really shocked that they seem surprised by the amount of PS 11. VI is the number six upgrade in the meta analyzer and it isn't because people are trying to get to 8. People have been running above PS 9 for a long time in my area and in my experience on the Vassal League. VI Nym with Trajector Simulator pretty much cemented the PS race.

Also, and this is a serious question, do you think running away with a 46 point fortress is playing X-wing? I’m not talking about viable strategy because it absolutely is.

21 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Also, and this is a serious question, do you think running away with a 46 point fortress is playing X-wing? I’m not talking about viable strategy because it absolutely is.

I think there is a certain argument that running away in general is a factor imposed entirely by the existence of time limits, and therefore “not x-wing” if you draw a super hard line. It is really a matter of degrees. I’m all for making fun of an honorable joust, but I could see a mindset that thinks it is peak x-wing. If we want to be all pedantic, I’d call stuff less x-wing and more x-wing, rather than on/off.

It is absolutely more x-wing than bombing munitioning turrets, but less x-wing than gunboats, probably?

5 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Maybe Travis was too drunk-ragey to consider this, but maybe people weren't taking a bunch of PS 11s that dump Target Locks to counter Kylo and Gunboats, maybe a lot of the field was made of non-idiots and they took those things to counter Nym-Miranda. Maybe all the hard counters he saw to Kylo were a by-product of counters to Nym.

I don't care how much derision this precipitates, but BB8 Poe is a solid matchup to Nym-Miranda. He can dump their target locks so they're jousting with TLTs, and he pretty easily avoids flung bombs.

Kylo is in the crappy position of being weaker to a lot of the stuff that is strong against the number one meta powerhouse. That makes it kind of a bad choice. I know I've played around with a lot of PS11 Imperial lists getting ready for regionals, and PS9 Kylo isn't the number one reason for bidding to PS11.

I think it's the other way around, TBH. I'm teching hard against Kylo and Harpoons (PS11 Poe, PS10 Wes) because they are dominant in my local meta. It's a happy coincidence that they happen to maybe be good against Nym Miranda as well. Honestly, I'm... curious about facing Nym Miranda with my list. I'm not looking forward to it, because Genius Trajectory Bombs are stupid, but regardless of whether they have LRS or Guidance chips, they are not firing those Harpoons. It'll be bloody, but I think I can take down Nym and keep Poe alive. Poe vs Miranda I'm pretty okay with as matchups go.

I'm not going to argue that Nym Miranda isn't a terrible list that needs to be (and eventually probably will be) dealt with. The sooner the better. Even a simple FAQ that "clarifies" Genius can't be used to launch bombs. Or nuke it from orbit and make Tragedy Similar (Thanks swipe text, not fixing that one) BSF Only and just be sad about the loss of a Punisher (Oh no Punishers suddenly unviable, so sad, how will we continue to play X Wing without such an iconic ship being on the tables?). But, if things like PS11 Wedge and Poe make Kylo unviable? There's not a universe where that makes me sad. The exact opposite in fact. Despite Travis' salty drunken "But muh Kylo!" stance, pushing him out of the competitive meta is a net plus for the game IMO.

6 minutes ago, MacchuWA said:

Tragedy Similar

Can we just start calling it this?

27 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I think there is a certain argument that running away in general is a factor imposed entirely by the existence of time limits, and therefore “not x-wing” if you draw a super hard line. It is really a matter of degrees. I’m all for making fun of an honorable joust, but I could see a mindset that thinks it is peak x-wing. If we want to be all pedantic, I’d call stuff less x-wing and more x-wing, rather than on/off.

It is absolutely more x-wing than bombing munitioning turrets, but less x-wing than gunboats, probably?

That's fair, and I tend to agree. I'm sort of co-opting how they've been discussing certain elements of the game recently. I probably fall on the side of the game that says running away because your ship is more points is more tournament play and less x-wing as well, but they sure as heck seem to be getting a ton of glee out of it.

Here is a list of things that are fun:

• PS11 Quickdraw + Inquistor + Sabacc
• PS11 Quickdraw + Inquistor + Yorr
• PS11 Quickdraw + PS11 Vader + Scimitar
• PS11 Quickdraw + Gunboats
• Kylo Silencer + PS11 Vader + Countdown or the disrespect bid
• Kylo Silencer + Duchess + Sabacc
• Kylo Silencer + Major Stridan
• Countdown + Sabacc + Duchess + Omega Leader
• PS11 Poe + PS11 Wedge/Wes + Jess Pava
• PS11 Poe + PS9 Jake Farell + Jan Ors
• Fenn + PS11 Cruise Talonbane + PS10 Torani or Torkil

Many of these things can beat anything with enough practice.

Harpoons are good for the game.

Silencer is good for the game.

Gunboats are good for the game.

Kylo Crew is especially good for the game.

X-Wing is fun.

Thweek is bad.

PS11 & VI is very good for the game.

All of these things are true.

Git Gud.

1 hour ago, AlexW said:

Also, and this is a serious question, do you think running away with a 46 point fortress is playing X-wing? I’m not talking about viable strategy because it absolutely is.

If you mean kylo being a points fortress, it's really a fringe benefit.

I bring kylo to actually kill things - but since a lot of lists don't allow you to kill things, then you kick in the secondary win condition of out-pointsing them (when they normally try and out point you and sit).

I'd still rather be killing things.

I just want PS 10/11 to go away tbh.

53 minutes ago, AlexW said:

That's fair, and I tend to agree. I'm sort of co-opting how they've been discussing certain elements of the game recently. I probably fall on the side of the game that says running away because your ship is more points is more tournament play and less x-wing as well, but they sure as heck seem to be getting a ton of glee out of it.

I do not enjoy running in most any game. I just acknowledge that sometimes I have to, because it's kylo vs like, assaj, I can never hurt assaj, but she can definitely hurt me

9 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I do not enjoy running in most any game. I just acknowledge that sometimes I have to, because it's kylo vs like, assaj, I can never hurt assaj, but she can definitely hurt me

That's fair. This didn't come across -- at least to me -- in the opening discussion of the show and it's a fair point that it's a game that some other lists play and so playing it better is important.