1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

But it seems like an example of how rules as written is ultimately subservient to rules as community, because ultimately that's how we know anything.

Where's my I agree button

I NEED AN I AGREE BUTTON

OK,

here it goes.

Exert from the Rules Reference Guide for Advanced maneuvers Page 6

" Advanced Maneuvers

The following bearings are for advanced maneuvers. These have exceptions to the standard rules for executing a maneuver.

• Koiogran Turn: The 󲁤 (Koiogran turn) bearing advances a ship straight forward, changing its facing by 180º. This uses the same template as the 󲁞 maneuver.

◊ If the ship fully executes the maneuver, the player slides the ship’s front guides into the end of the template instead of the rear guides.

• Segnor’s Loop: The 󲁣 (left Segnor’s Loop) and 󲁥 (right Segnor’s Loop) bearings advance a ship at a shallow curve to one side, then reverses its facing. This uses the same template as the 󲁝 and 󲁟 maneuvers.

◊ If the ship fully executes the maneuver, the player slides the ship’s front guides into the end of the template instead of the rear guides.

• Tallon Roll: The 󲁢 (left Tallon Roll) and 󲁦 (right Tallon Roll) bearings advance a ship at a tight curve to one side, sharply changing its facing by 180º. This uses the same template as the 󲁜 and 󲁠 maneuvers.

◊ If the ship fully executes the maneuver, before the player places the ship at the opposite end of the template, the ship is rotated 90º to the left for a 󲁢, or 90º to the right for a 󲁦. Then the player places the ship with the hashmark on the side of the base aligned to the left, middle, or right of the end of the template, (similar to a barrel roll).

If a ship overlaps another ship while executing a Koiogran turn, Segnor’s Loop, or Tallon Roll, the ship partially executes the maneuver by using the rear guides as though it was executing the basic maneuver that uses the same template."

I will break down the entire section to show why Tallon Rolls DO NOT require you to complete a Hard Turn before placing the ship.

1. "The following bearings are for advanced maneuvers. These have exceptions to the standard rules for executing a maneuver."
   The opening paragraph for this section is actually important as we will refer back to this later.

2. "• Tallon Roll: The 󲁢 (left Tallon Roll) and 󲁦 (right Tallon Roll) bearings advance a ship at a tight curve to one side, sharply changing its facing by 180º. This uses the same template as the 󲁜 and 󲁠 maneuvers."
   The key part from this is that it is a descriptive text about the maneuver, not instructions on how to execute it, this is included to make clear the intent of the maneuver.

3. "◊ If the ship fully executes the maneuver, "
   This preface to the Tallon Roll is not exclusive to the Tallon Roll but is in fact included in all 3 Advanced Maneuvers and is included to give a trigger to the last paragraph, i.e. If the ship [does not] fully execute the maneuver do this instead. It is important to note that a comer is used here not a full stop, a dependency clause exists here where it is impossible for you to fully execute the maneuver without placing the ship in its final position and rotating it 90 degrees.

4. "before the player places the ship at the opposite end of the template, the ship is rotated 90º to the left for a 󲁢, or 90º to the right for a 󲁦. Then the player places the ship with the hashmark on the side of the base aligned to the left, middle, or right of the end of the template, (similar to a barrel roll)."
   We are now into the real meat of the wording now so I may have to break this down into subsections but anyway. Before we place the ship at the opposite end of the template we rotate it 90 degrees in the relevant direction (paraphrasing), this is referencing back to point 1. where we have exceptions to the standard rules for executing maneuvers, at no point when executing a Tallon Roll do we have to place the rear nubs into the maneuver template because of this wording and point 1. Then the player places the ship with the hashmark on the side of the base aligned to the left, middle, or right of the end of the template, (similar to a barrel roll), [this section is actually more interesting then you would think, but I will get in to that] so we now place our rotated ship in one of the three positions stated here, like we would for a barrel roll. The interesting point is that because it references "similar to a barrel roll" we have to complete the Tallon Roll if we can, you can not choose a position on the template that would make you bump thereby failing to fully execute the maneuver, if you can complete, you have to, like a barrel roll.

5. "If a ship overlaps another ship while executing a Koiogran turn, Segnor’s Loop, or Tallon Roll, the ship partially executes the maneuver by using the rear guides as though it was executing the basic maneuver that uses the same template."
   This is the text that is triggered by step 3. not being able to exist mutually with step 4. if you can not simultaneously (due to the comma dependency) have both conditions met, then you go here and it is a bump.

Hope that makes it clear for people!

Thanks

Kris

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I mean, I largely agree. Mostly. There's a lot of weird interaction problems from that - Magva being the biggest.

Midnight too iIrc. It comes down to are the triggered abilities from pilot and upgrade cards separate from game effects. Looking at how Ability Que is explained I think they are. So Magva would only allow Han to tinker with one of the dice via his ability and Midnight would stop him completely.

Just now, Hiemfire said:

Midnight too iIrc. It comes down to are the triggered abilities from pilot and upgrade cards separate from game effects. Looking at how Ability Que is explained I think they are. So Magva would only allow Han to tinker with one of the dice via his ability and Midnight would stop him completely.

Right, but we're back to conflicting with what was said earlier, if Han is a "re-do", wouldn't that be not dice modification? We're at the same place wanting the same rulings, just disagreeing with myself here 😛

16 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Yep... home, and not disappointed by the internet. Dumpster fires at full burn.

Those top 16 coins are heavy! Got the Rebel helmet templates, and my screwed up bad enough that the EZ mode list couldn’t bail me out. Nuts.

You still made top 16 and got knocked out by the top seeded player in round one of day 2. I'd say that's call for a bit of celebration.

So the real question today: If I turn my B-Wings to face the board edge and one of them can Tallon Roll to stay on the board and the other one can get coordinated to barrel roll back and stay on the board when he Tallon Rolls, and no one's getting stressed because the princess is here, does the B-Wing have to be on the board at the end of its 1-turn before turning 90 degrees and wiggling all the way forward? If yes, do I just concede?

26 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Han is cheating. His ability literally reads "When 0-1 from an obstacle, the rules are more like guidelines."

I vote Little Annie breaks the rules, too:

When performing a barrel roll, you may immediately perform another barrel roll.

Oh, well.

We got bb.astro Annie instead.

It's probably more fair.

But....ohhhhhh, the crab walking we could've had.

2 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

So the real question today: If I turn my B-Wings to face the board edge and one of them can Tallon Roll to stay on the board and the other one can get coordinated to barrel roll back and stay on the board when he Tallon Rolls, and no one's getting stressed because the princess is here, does the B-Wing have to be on the board at the end of its 1-turn before turning 90 degrees and wiggling all the way forward? If yes, do I just concede?

I'm going to refer to my previous argument:

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Right, but we're back to conflicting with what was said earlier, if Han is a "re-do", wouldn't that be not dice modification? We're at the same place wanting the same rulings, just disagreeing with myself here 😛

It's dice modification to him and anything that doesn't fall under "other game effects" otherwise someone could just keep "Han-ing" their dice till they got the result they wanted.

5 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

You still made top 16 and got knocked out by the top seeded player in round one of day 2. I'd say that's call for a bit of celebration.

Actually I got 12th, so not dead to Wedge and Luke thank you!

Just now, LagJanson said:

Actually I got 12th, so not dead to Wedge and Luke thank you!

I assumed the wrong Imp player then. Good job still.

7 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

So the real question today: If I turn my B-Wings to face the board edge and one of them can Tallon Roll to stay on the board and the other one can get coordinated to barrel roll back and stay on the board when he Tallon Rolls, and no one's getting stressed because the princess is here, does the B-Wing have to be on the board at the end of its 1-turn before turning 90 degrees and wiggling all the way forward? If yes, do I just concede?

If he could questionably pull that off, it would have been worth a shot. If the B-Wing was ruled off the board if the middle doesn't keep it on the board but the forward does - holy **** would I bring a shitstorm down.

8 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

If he could questionably pull that off, it would have been worth a shot. If the B-Wing was ruled off the board if the middle doesn't keep it on the board but the forward does - holy **** would I bring a shitstorm down.

I was thinking the exact same thing. I was like "the 1-talon is really short". Then I remembered the T-roll ruling.

14 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

I vote Little Annie breaks the rules, too:

When performing a barrel roll, you may immediately perform another barrel roll.

That wouldn't be breaking the rules, depending on whether it's done with words or symbols. You can't do two [Barrel Roll Action Symbol], but you can totally do two "barrel roll" words. Otherwise, a ship which decloaked couldn't perform a barrel roll action, or a ship which has already performed a barrel roll couldn't be tractored.

//

Anyhow, do we actually have spoiled text, or is it just folks squinting really hard at tiny pictures?

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

//

Anyhow, do we actually have spoiled text, or is it just folks squinting really hard at tiny pictures?

Spoiled tiny text.

I can't find the image, but somebody with time can.

17 minutes ago, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

If he could questionably pull that off, it would have been worth a shot. If the B-Wing was ruled off the board if the middle doesn't keep it on the board but the forward does - holy **** would I bring a shitstorm down.

Would be allowed as written. It only has an exception for overlapping, nothing about being off the board. You only check for that after completing the maneuver, just like if you bump to stay on

33 minutes ago, KrisSherriff said:

Hope that makes it clear for people!

Thanks

Kris

Appreciate the breakdown. I am not sure I fully agree, but I think a strong argument can be made not for one side or the other but for clear god **** wording.

11 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Spoiled tiny text.

I can't find the image, but somebody with time can.

This, or something different? AFAIC, this is would just be squinting at an incomplete picture.

I genuinely thought that the Talon roll change was an intentional nerf since FFG also nerfed barrel rolls.

The end point is that we need more responsive/active development support.

12 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

This, or something different? AFAIC, this is would just be squinting at an incomplete picture.

@MegaSilver translated some stuff, I guess. Maybe polish?

Or maybe he's a Jedi with card-reading powers.

Either one.

47 minutes ago, KrisSherriff said:

Kris

Reading just the Rules Reference entry, I would agree that RAW, the TO made the right call. But the Core Rulebook does still exist, and it says:

Quote

before the player places the ship at the opposite end of the template, the ship is rotated an additional 90º in the same direction as the maneuver. The player places the ship so that the hashmark on the side of the base is aligned to the left, middle, or right of the end of the template.

Emphasis added.

Rules Reference takes priority in case of disagreement, but I don't see the Rules Reference overriding this in any way?

As far as I can see, the support for the T-roll decision is that you complete the 3 hard manoeuvre, because template, then rotate it into T-roll.

Um....

Its a T-Roll from dial to final position. No part of it is a 3 hard, apart from the tool you use. So that T-roll manoeuvre is only complete when the ship is placed in it's final, rotated position of front, centre, or back.

Much like a 4k isn't a 4 straight, for the purposes of the crit. You don't do a 4 and then K it.

There's just a crappy bit of wording that makes parts of it seem separate, without actually saying they're separate.

Because they're not.

3 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Reading just the Rules Reference entry, I would agree that RAW, the TO made the right call. But the Core Rulebook does still exist, and it says:

Emphasis added.

Rules Reference takes priority in case of disagreement, but I don't see the Rules Reference overriding this in any way?

Even reading just the rules reference you have to, ignore parts of the advanced maneuvers section, not understand the function of the comma, and extrapolate rules form the descriptive text.

It was the wrong call, it happens, I have made them, every TO has made an incorrect call at some point I am sure.

My only concern is making sure we get it correct moving forwards.

Kris.

n.b. Had I been playing at the event, or any other event, I would have respected the TO Ruling and gotten on with my life, after the event had finished I would have taken the time to calmly explain that I think they called that the incorrect way and asked them to take some time to look at it again without the stress of running an event and then left it there. being an *** to a Judge, TO or Marshal does no one any good.

@KrisSherriff I honestly thought you were saying he made the right call 😅 I clearly skimmed some parts of your post

12 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

As far as I can see, the support for the T-roll decision is that you complete the 3 hard manoeuvre, because template, then rotate it into T-roll.

Um....

Its a T-Roll from dial to final position. No part of it is a 3 hard, apart from the tool you use. So that T-roll manoeuvre is only complete when the ship is placed in it's final, rotated position of front, centre, or back.

Much like a 4k isn't a 4 straight, for the purposes of the crit. You don't do a 4 and then K it.

There's just a crappy bit of wording that makes parts of it seem separate, without actually saying they're separate.

Because they're not.

That is a good point about the crit. If the 4K doesn't count as a straight maneuver, then that would seal the deal IMO on how the T-Roll should be ruled.