2 minutes ago, Deathrevived91 said:

As much as it pains me to say, I learned I have been doing those wrong for ages. At least as long as 2.0 has been out. It's pretty clear with the If Statement that you dont rotate until after checking for bump.

You rotate before you ever place the ship.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

The actual manuever is a talon roll, not a 3 turn.

I... agree? Just the way FFG wrote the rules separates it out so you are doing two things and it only matters when doing Talon Rolls.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The actual manuever is a talon roll, not a 3 turn.

Which under bearing in the RR uses the hard template. Under movement you use the template and go from lined up in front guides to the rear guides.

Then there is an If statement and the special rules for Talon roll kick in.

The problem is that the RRG contains a bizarrely placed if-then statement which, read strictly, indicates that the ship must fully execute the maneuver before it can rotate.

So, basically, everyone is correct because the rules contradict themselves and the entire world is nothing but chaos. In short, another day in the life of X-wing

Just now, Maui. said:

The problem is that the RRG contains a bizarrely placed if-then statement which, read strictly, indicates that the ship must fully execute the maneuver before it can rotate.

So, basically, everyone is correct and the rules contradict themselves and the entire world is nothing but chaos. In short, another day in the life of X-wing

Pretty much this. It is the Han on maneuver rules.

If the underlined section in Green is relevant, it is literally impossible to complete a Tallon Roll as you can only rotate the ship before placing which it can't do as you have already fully executed the maneuver.

All of the special maneuvers that change your ships facing have that caveat to lead into the bit circled in green about only rotating at the end, not at the start.

Just now, Scott Pilgrim2 said:

Pretty much this. It is the Han on maneuver rules.

that

sometimes the rules work in such a way that you go with what they meant. It's not optimal, or ideal, but it's what we've got.

Just now, Brunas said:

that

sometimes the rules work in such a way that you go with what they meant. It's not optimal, or ideal, but it's what we've got.

So how are you ruling it at Krayt Cup, since it’s so clearly ambiguous it requires saying out loud?

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

So how are you ruling it at Krayt Cup, since it’s so clearly ambiguous it requires saying out loud?

you can't just make me say things

talon rolls only clear if a 1 straight clears, and a 4 bank in the opposite direction of the talon roll also clears

Like Canada!!!

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

So how are you ruling it at Krayt Cup, since it’s so clearly ambiguous it requires saying out loud?

Anyone who attempts a tallon roll is summarily disqualified

Just now, Brunas said:

you can't just make me say things

talon rolls only clear if a 1 straight clears, and a 4 bank in the opposite direction of the talon roll also clears

Dank

Just now, Maui. said:

Anyone who attempts a tallon roll is summarily disqualified

I'm out of reactions, but also that

My friend doesn't like talon rolls

I'll be careful

YOU'LL BE DEAD

The rules are spread out across several sections, but the relevant items I found are:

(Rules Reference page 6):
Bearing
[...]
Advanced Maneuvers
The following bearings are for ADVANCED MANEUVERS. These have exceptions to the standard rules for executing a maneuver.
[...}
Tallon Roll
The ⁢ (left Tallon Roll) and ⁦ (right Tallon Roll) bearings advance a ship at a tight curve to one side, sharply changing its facing by 180º. This uses the same template as the [left hard turn] and [right hard turn] ⁠maneuvers.
◊ If the ship fully executes the maneuver, before the player places the ship at the opposite end of the template, the ship is rotated 90º to the left for a [left tallon roll]⁢, or 90º to the right for a ⁦[right tallon roll]. Then the player places the ship with the hashmark on the side of the base aligned to the left, middle, or right of the end of the template, (similar to a barrel roll).

(italics mine)

(Rules Reference page 14)
Overlap
While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it OVERLAPS an object if the ship's final position would physically be on top of that object.

A ship FULLY executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship. If a ship executes a maneuver and overlaps a ship, it must PARTIALLY execute that maneuver by performing the following steps.
[...]

The rules as written for the Tallon Roll are inherently impossible to follow (you don't know if the ship fully executes the maneuver until you actually have verified that it fits in its final position, which for the Tallon Roll means checking all 3 of the possible final positions). However, there is also no step for placing the ship at the end of the maneuver template in the nubs prior to the "rotate 90 degrees ..." instructions. The ruling argued at Toronto would require that step in order to make any sense.

Since we're asking questions about how a Talon Roll fully executes, it seems worthwhile to dig into the Overlap rules, and not just the Bearing rules:

"While a ship executes a maneuver or otherwise moves, it overlaps an object if the ship’s final position would physically be on top of an object. A ship fully executes a maneuver if it does not overlap a ship. If a ship executes a maneuver and overlaps a ship, it must partially execute that maneuver by [etc, etc...] (RR. p.14)"

So full execution happens if the final position would not be physically on top of a ship. To me, the final position of a Talon Roll seems like it would include the alignment up, down, or center. If it would fit with the wiggle--that is, the final position doesn't overlap--it seems like it's a fully executed move.

That was the lamest ending to a major event ever.

so in response to the Canada crack earlier. Git gud American, learn left from right... But thanks for coming!

13 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

The rules as written for the Tallon Roll are inherently impossible to follow (you don't know if the ship fully executes the maneuver until you actually have verified that it fits in its final position, which for the Tallon Roll means checking all 3 of the possible final positions). However, there is also no step for placing the ship at the end of the maneuver template in the nubs prior to the "rotate 90 degrees ..." instructions. The ruling argued at Toronto would require that step in order to make any sense.

Exactly, it requires eyeballing an overlap before putting the ship down, and if it doenst overlap, you put the ship in another position. FFG writing at its finest.

Just now, Deathrevived91 said:

so in response to the Canada crack earlier. Git gud American, learn left from right...

That sounds like the metric system to me. Get out, you metre loving animals.

Just now, Deathrevived91 said:

Exactly, it requires eyeballing an overlap before putting the ship down, and if it doenst overlap, you put the ship in another position. FFG writing at its finest.

The best way to win is to not even have to play.

I know I'd feel awesome to win that way.

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

The best way to win is to not even have to play.

My wallet agrees!

I feel sad for both players from that final. Not ideal for either.

4 minutes ago, Darth Seridur said:

I feel sad for both players from that final. Not ideal for either.

I don't feel sad for Calen - not knocking his decision, but he decided to go for the easy win.

We don't know if it was his decision, but if it was... you can knock his decision. You're allowed.

Can someone summarize how the final ended?