20 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Outside of configurations, would xwing be a better game without upgrades?

maybe.

4 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

Also, my ability only procs if a ship dies and I give up MoV is a pretty big drawback

Wrong, re-read the last part of the upgrade:

It is synergistic with the first part, but not reliant on it.

5 minutes ago, hawk32 said:

But only one gives your opponent a choice. Attani only interacted with my ships. Also, my ability only procs if a ship dies and I give up MoV is a pretty big drawback.

That's the part of Sloane most people focus on, but it's not the full story. Her rerolls are granted against any self-stressing ship as well.

2 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Wrong, re-read the last part of the upgrade:

It is synergistic with the first part, but not reliant on it.

Been playing so much hyperspace it slipped my mind. I should know better, echo with sloane and generic strikers is the most fun I've ever had playing xwing.

1 minute ago, hawk32 said:

Been playing so much hyperspace it slipped my mind.

Happens, Cheers.

26 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Outside of configurations, would xwing be a better game without upgrades?

Not for me. At least not if you count non-standard actions, pilot abilities and chassis abilities as upgrades. Which I think is only fair. Or to borrow @Kaptin Krunch: WOOORRDS!

To borrow from Kevin Leintz, what is the most important thing for you in a squad?

For me it's options. I want to have choices beyond the maneuver and focus/lock.

20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

For me it's options. I want to have choices beyond the maneuver and focus/lock

Same.

I just prefer the game when those options feel mediocre and only improve a ships options in relatively minor ways.

Ship Ability + Pilot Ability allows for a ton of choices and variety by itself. The Talent Upgrades and Modification Upgrades are probably my favorite examples of the amount of relevance I like to see from upgrades.

They can change how your ships work and play but for the most part its not in hugely significant ways.

Considering what Resistance and FO bring to the table, complaining about Sloane is… rich.

And saying Leia is fine (at 2 points!) and Sloane is not is hilariously so. Leia and double tap Y-s is disgustingly good. And Hyperspace legal. If Tripsilons didn’t make Imperials non competitive in Hyperspace (and make no mistake, it did), then Leia Y-s would. The dark lord of the Sith can’t outmaneuver the lowly Y when they can K-turn into modified shots like they can.

At 2 points she will be a meta defining card. While I’ve never lost a match to Sloane. Yes, including a few against Whisper Sloane.

33 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Outside of configurations, would xwing be a better game without upgrades?

There are a lot of upgrades I really love. So many of them are such fun to use. But many of the best, IMHO, have drawbacks as well as benefits. Advanced Sensors limits you to one action only. Afterburners only works after high-speed maneuvers and only twice per game. Fire Control System changes around how you can use a Lock, but it doesn't give you a free Lock on anything.

5 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Considering what Resistance and FO bring to the table, complaining about Sloane is… rich.

And saying Leia is fine (at 2 points!) and Sloane is not is hilariously so. Leia and double tap Y-s is disgustingly good. And Hyperspace legal. If Tripsilons didn’t make Imperials non competitive in Hyperspace (and make no mistake, it did), then Leia Y-s would. The dark lord of the Sith can’t outmaneuver the lowly Y when they can K-turn into modified shots like they can.

At 2 points she will be a meta defining card. While I’ve never lost a match to Sloane. Yes, including a few against Whisper Sloane.

Double tapping Ys have to use ion turret in hyperspace. Not mention Leia is gated behind a U or YT1300 in that format.

7 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Considering what Resistance and FO bring to the table, complaining about Sloane is… rich.

I don't think anybody is saying anything that Sloane is the biggest problem in X-Wing. I think she's just being an example thrown around today.

The discussion really seems to be at a level of where do we draw the line on this stuff? If I'm using X and it makes the game unfun for my opponent, is this ok? At what level is X unfun, but Y is ok? Totally agreement here is unlikely, since personal preference is involved. There are some seriously warped individuals out there that think triple Ups deployment shenanigans are fun and engaging for everybody.

2 minutes ago, Octarine-08 said:

Double tapping Ys have to use ion turret in hyperspace. Not mention Leia is gated behind a U or YT1300 in that format.

Darn?

Are the double tapping Ys that good? They just feel like a chonky rebel swarm, sure if you joust and get into r1-2 it's a lot dice, and it's going to take time to burn down, but nothing screams OP to me in that list

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

So, if that were true, then... no

But while epic did involve a lot of naked/nearly naked generics it also involved some of the worst combo wing imaginable to get chain PS 9 focus/lock ordnance or 7 die R5 attacks...

...my hunch is that when Epic is re-launched, it's game mode in the app will not allow most of those sillier combos that break things on larger scales.

Kinda like hyperspace mode, but stricter on upgrades.

Just my hunch.

4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

The discussion really seems to be at a level of where do we draw the line on this stuff?

For me it is easy. Can you beat it, and does it have counterplay, with any decently competent squad list. If you can bring any squad against it, and have a tactical solution you can employ to give you a chance at victory? Then it is fine.

Sloane is fine. There is nothing she hard counters. And if you say ‘self stressing aces’ maybe think about it from the other side. What options do swarmed genetics have against such aces? Sure it makes doing the thing you want to do harder, or not automatic, but it doesn’t prevent you, and it doesn’t shut down entire archetypes.

How much does that strsss matter to a ship that isn’t getting shot? Yeah you may have to alter your approach or be more careful, but it’s still Tactics on the table that matter.

Tripsilon is materially different. There are lots of otherwise well constructed and viable squads that are straight up hard countered. Many/ most ships have no means of avoiding the alpha, and they have so much bulk that burning them down once you lose half your list can be impossible. Leia swarms are not nearly on that level, but they do really hurt ships like the X1. I wasn’t joking when I said they are more maneuverable than Vader.

4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Are the double tapping Ys that good? They just feel like a chonky rebel swarm, sure if you joust and get into r1-2 it's a lot dice, and it's going to take time to burn down, but nothing screams OP to me in that list

Yeah, they kinda are. Lots of health, and it can be hard to avoid. The sheer number of dice they can bring at R1-2 is very high. They legitimately are one of the best things out there. 2-3 in a list is a wrecking ball. They’re not unbeatable, but they are certainly one of the dominant factors in my local metas. Throwing in Leia makes them supremely hard to avoid.

3 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

For me it is easy. Can you beat it, and does it have counterplay, with any decently competent squad list. If you can bring any squad against it, and have a tactical solution you can employ to give you a chance at victory? Then it is fine.

That's fine. That's where you draw the line.

Personally, I enjoy winning as much as the next guy, but that enjoyment is lessened when my opponent checks out mid-way through the game because they aren't enjoying it.

11 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Sloane is fine.

Might be a bit too cheap (by 1-2 points) for the level of control she provides in my opinion. The hoops (type not quantity) you have to jump through (don't gain stress, only target her carrier or stragglers that fall out of her range 0-3 bubble) not to be affected her ability is worse than quads.

6 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

[Are Y-Wings that good?]

Yeah, they kinda are. Lots of health, and it can be hard to avoid. The sheer number of dice they can bring at R1-2 is very high. They legitimately are one of the best things out there. 2-3 in a list is a wrecking ball. They’re not unbeatable, but they are certainly one of the dominant factors in my local metas. Throwing in Leia makes them supremely hard to avoid.

One thing which jumps out about Y-Wings is that they've got a decent-enough weakness to range control. Range 1-2 is really potent, but Range 3 is a lot weaker.

Not saying that makes Y-Wings bad, but perhaps highlighting one of the counterplay options.

12 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

That's fine. That's where you draw the line.

Personally, I enjoy winning as much as the next guy, but that enjoyment is lessened when my opponent checks out mid-way through the game because they aren't enjoying it.

That’s fair. It’s why there are certain lists of mine that I know are good, but that I won’t fly at league night, or with certain groups. One of the stores I frequent is very casual, the other much more competitive. Once I’ve determined a certain list is ‘too good’ I remove it from my pool for the casual store, because I know they won’t enjoy flying against it.

Even at the more competitive store there are certain things I won’t bring out frequently, because I know how nasty they can be. Oh I may fly them, but only against certain opponents or in tournaments.

During the official league night, where we have month long tracking, everyone knows what the score is. I won’t hold back (but neither do I deliberately seek out oppressive lists), but the Friday casual night is when I bring the weird out. Jerrijord and Ved Folso? Let’s do this. How about some Porkins action.

The only time I’ve found Sloane to rise to the NPE level for me or my opponent was when I ran her on Sai, with Death Troopers Feroph and a TIE mini swarm. That was the only time I’ve had my opponent say it sucked to fly against.

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

One thing which jumps out about Y-Wings is that they've got a decent-enough weakness to range control. Range 1-2 is really potent, but Range 3 is a lot weaker.

Not saying that makes Y-Wings bad, but perhaps highlighting one of the counterplay options.

True, but also something that is easier said than done. Not all ships can manage this in practice, including some high priced otherwise nominal ‘aces’.

There is a reason I keep mentioning the X1, it is particularly hurt by the rise of the double tap Y.

2 hours ago, Brunas said:

Just to hit both of these at once: Well, that's kind of my point. Do you need to dramatically alter your playstyle? Here's some random at least hyperspace adjacent lists, if sloane is hiding in that deci pack:

Rear Admiral Chiraneau (80)
Admiral Sloane (10)
Minister Tua (7)

Planetary Sentinel (34)

Planetary Sentinel (34)

Planetary Sentinel (34)

Total: 199

Major Vermeil (49)
Admiral Sloane (10)

Academy Pilot (23)

Academy Pilot (23)

Academy Pilot (23)

Academy Pilot (23)

Academy Pilot (23)

Academy Pilot (23)

Total: 197

Both of those are worst cases for maximizing number of ships that would be shooting your (double?) stressed ship. Vermeil/TIEs doesn't seem any better than a tie swarm, and RAC + reapers doesn't even look... good.

Here's Vermeil and some named strikers with room for activities:

Major Vermeil (49)
Admiral Sloane (10)

“Pure Sabacc” (44)

“Countdown” (44)

“Duchess” (42)

Total: 189

That's only answering half the question though - just because it might not necessarily be good, doesn't mean it's OK. So, there's this widespread belief that the only way to beat a sloane squad is to kill the sloane carrier.

You don't win or lose the game based on how many triggers of cards your opponent gets. I got to double stress something with sloane therefore I won isn't how it actually works. There are plenty of ships that can just bail for a turn after being the one to kill a ship with sloane, or even just tank things. Even if you want to just take the combo win approach, you can take baffle (which is in the Bwing expansion) and just take a damage to clear the second stress.

I don't know, I don't think I see the philosophical difference between Sloane and Seventh Sister or Ferrosphere Paint. Yes, sometimes it hurts to get double stressed, or tractored, or whatever. Yes, it sucks for Vader to get stressed for locking Poe.

Actually, I think Death Troopers is an even better comparison. No one is rioting over death troopers, but it DRAMATICALLY forces you to play different, or none of your ships are ever getting actions again.

I kinda went onto this in my rant-

But sloane is bull, but the problem is that it's the only thing propping a list up like the RAC one chris posted.

The secret is that generic pilots are still awful in this meta.

The point adjustments played Whack a mole, and whacked most of the moles.

The problem is that that the game is still being played above a metaphorical mole den, and FFG should probably hire an exterminator to get rid of those moles at the source.

The Striker itself is a perfect example- Initiative is not fairly costed, nor are the abilities that ships have costed correctly.

I'm interested in how CIS will turn out- They have no turrets, and no high init ships. They'll either be the first faction with a distinct identity (wierd how every faction's identity turned into 3-ship ace lists?) or they'll be bad.

The meta was high-init Ace Alpha prior to the adjustment, now I forsee it being a mix of alpha and Turrets. Oh boy you know how 'fun' turrets are... There will also likely be some XXYYU **** with Leia that jousts a bunch.

Also god **** are Sentinels and Scouts (striker generics) awful holy ****.

What would a fair cost for a Sentinel be if it could take no upgrades?

What would a fair cost for a Scout be if the only EPT it was allowed was Crack Shot?

30 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Also god **** are Sentinels and Scouts (striker generics) awful holy ****.

What would a fair cost for a Sentinel be if it could take no upgrades?

What would a fair cost for a Scout be if the only EPT it was allowed was Crack Shot?

Strikers are probably the worst example to use for your opinion on prices. Strikers moving last are incredibly degenerate - countdown and sabacc are lower initiative and more expensive than duchess presumably for a reason. But, ailerons makes them one of the very few ships where you'd actually consider paying 4 points to move up to i3. If 5 ship rebel starts to be common, opinions on black squadron scouts should (but probably won't) invert.

12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Strikers are probably the worst example to use for your opinion on prices. Strikers moving last are incredibly degenerate - countdown and sabacc are lower initiative and more expensive than duchess presumably for a reason. But, ailerons makes them one of the very few ships where you'd actually consider paying 4 points to move up to i3. If 5 ship rebel starts to be common, opinions on black squadron scouts should (but probably won't) invert.

my group fiddled with ptl starvipers back in the day. Anything lower PS than them lost the game in listbuilding, the only thing keeping them back was middling PS.

15 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Strikers are probably the worst example to use for your opinion on prices. Strikers moving last are incredibly degenerate - countdown and sabacc are lower initiative and more expensive than duchess presumably for a reason. But, ailerons makes them one of the very few ships where you'd actually consider paying 4 points to move up to i3. If 5 ship rebel starts to be common, opinions on black squadron scouts should (but probably won't) invert.

You know they won't play 5 ship rebel in mass, since it's not 3 ship and they don't move last.

And my point is that as Strikers benefit from init more than other ships, why is I1 to i5 linear, with a free ability thown in at i5? Surely then either Duchess should cost more, or Scouts should cost less.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

countdown and sabacc are lower initiative and more expensive than duchess presumably for a reason

Because their abilities are so much better than Duchess though. Duchess makes your life easier by not having to exquisitely plan out your aileron moves and is a bit more arc dodgy. But that's just flat not worth as much as being crazy levels of tanky/critproof on a shieldless chassis or a 4th red dice. I'm very happy that the Strikers with good abilities are mid-I instead of the classic convention of putting all the good stuff at the high end

54 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

What would a fair cost for a Sentinel be if it could take no upgrades?

What would a fair cost for a Scout be if the only EPT it was allowed was Crack Shot?

I'm not convinced the Sentinels are that overcosted. They're still the cheapest way to drop 3 red dice on the table. Maybe a point or two at the most

Scouts seem way more overcosted. They fall prey to the mid-I/slot curse where they're paying for something that really doesn't help them. I 1-4 are largely interchangeable and irrelevant. Maybe that will start to change now, but I don't really believe it. Spending points to move last against 5 ship rebel is just wasted points against the rest of the field running I5s. It doesn't seem worth the tradeoff, especially considering what good blockers Strikers are. So in most matchups they're just a pointlessly more expensive Sentinel, that I3/talent should be worth a couple points max. A 2 point differential between Sentinels and a 6 point differential between Duchess seems much more in line